How would you change K-12 Schools in America?

[Bern80]

I have lots of opinions of course, but the only two I will comment on would be first a slight tweak to the foreign language thing people are bringing up, I agree with that, but I would make those whose primary language is english learn spanish and those whose primary langauage is spanish learn english.

I also think schools really need to be teaching financial literacy. So many of our problems would go away if people understood money and handled it responsibly.

Unions in schools. I have never understood why they are necessary and it seems schools would be so much better and efficient without them. What is the purpose of a union? It's to protect the employees from an exploitive employer. But the employer in the case of schools is essentially the government, so why does a group of employees need protection from the government?

 

[psikeyhackr]

I also think schools really need to be teaching financial literacy. So many of our problems would go away if people understood money and handled it responsibly.

How does that differ from mandatory accounting? I admit that all of the accounting books I have seen SUCK. It is more like they are designed to convince people that accounting is difficult to understand and being a professional accountant is GREAT. It is 700 year old arithmetic And is very tedious and time consuming without a computer. But properly designed computer software should make it easy for anybody. The computer could tell the user with every entry whether it is in balance or out of balance and if the last entry put it further in or out.

But they also need to explain the difference between depreciation and depreciation allowance. Just because the government does not let people file depreciation on some things does not mean they don't depreciate.

Unions in schools. I have never understood why they are necessary and it seems schools would be so much better and efficient without them. What is the purpose of a union? It's to protect the employees from an exploitive employer. But the employer in the case of schools is essentially the government, so why does a group of employees need protection from the government?

Oh, teachers are supposed to TRUST the government. Why? I don't!

We have cheap computers. Why can't we begin short circuiting the schools. People act like kids only learn in schools. With the RIGHT E-BOOKS why couldn't they learn more out of school than in it?

psik

 

[Wry Catcher]

Thread bumped as the issue has been renewed by Chanel (the dumbest generation). Education in America is failing; it's easy to blame others, not so easy to offer solutions.

 

[bodecea]

I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think. Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.

School Choice. Schools get to choose who they take and keep.

Those who can't cut it get a minimum 1 year vacation working those jobs that illegals take now.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Thread bumped as the issue has been renewed by Chanel (the dumbest generation). Education in America is failing; it's easy to blame others, not so easy to offer solutions.

A solution was demonstrated in 1987 but it is kept under the rug.

Often these at-risk students were disruptive in classes to the dismay of their instructors. When this happened, it was nothing new because these pupils had been frustrating their teachers for years.

The school board in Indian River County in Florida confronted the problems that accompanied keeping at-risk students in regular classes, and they looked for a solution. A new use of computers was suggested: remove these students from regular classrooms, and let the machines teach them. Since teachers didn't relish the difficulties involved in trying to teach these students, it was an opportunity to try something new without arousing opposition from teachers. After considering the options, the school board authorized the establishment of a program using computers. It was begun in Vero Beach High School in 1987. School authorities put the at-risk students into a separate section where teaching was done, not by teachers, but by computers. Teachers in these classes became facilitators of learning.

Authorities in Vero Beach knew their pupils in computerized education were learning. Nonetheless, they were unable to graduate because twenty-four credits were required. Credits depend primarily on time spent in completed classes. Even if the computer students knew enough, they still lacked sufficient credits. Therefore, authorities decided to use the GED exam as a replacement. This option set up a horrendous complication for the at-risk students trying to graduate. Only sixty-six percent of successful graduates can pass the GED with the Florida requirements after twelve normal years of learning in school. The at-risk students had been markedly behind when they entered the program. Now the school demanded that they not only equal other graduates, but that they do better than one-third of them. If they failed, their quest of a diploma had also failed. Odds against these students passing the GED were enormous. No one unfamiliar with the power of computers could have given them much chance to graduate.

When the tests were given and scored, questions about the effectiveness of this novel way of teaching vanished. Computers had effectively overcome those oppressive negative odds. Eighty-five percent of these students taught by computers pass the GED with the Florida requirements on their first attempt.

Computers as tutors - section I

In 1987 It would be two years before Intel would introduce the 486 processor. Today a $300 netbook would be more than 10 times as powerful as that. I haven't seen what software was used in 1987.

We now have the problem of figuring out what kind and how to create a cyper-culture.

None has ever existed before so we don't know how. So who is in control of how we do it.

psik

 

[JFK_USA]

So kids won't have the freedom or liberty to choose what they do. Automatically throw low iq people into trade positions? Bs what's the cutoff?

Our education system isn't the entire problem, it's the parents and the support system they have. Teachers have to teach more kids at 25K a year. Why would the smartest people want to work for such a low wage? We have to make the education a key aspect in our society, make it cool, make it fun to be smart. Don't just teach the basics of life, teach more.

I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.

Here is how it works: School starts at age 4 going 5 days a week. Parents may be CRIMINALLY liable for not making their kids go to school.

From age 4 -8 they are in the observation state. They start to get taught basic academic and social skills. They are judge on education factors as well as behavioral factors (not by the teacher, but from obervational people). As the years go on they start to get segregated by behavioral problems as well as IQ.

(1) By Age 9: The Children get situation into 1 of 5 school types. Each type being strategically located throughout the state, so try to provide access to all of them. These levels are based on IQ as well as behavior.

Level 1: Genius Level.
Geniuses needs to be identified and challenged early on. We need to get them into schools where they can be groomed to be the next Eisensteins!

Level 2: Higher IQ - Low Behavior Problems
Big problem with schools today is the smart kids get intimidated by kids with behavior problems. Segregate them out based not on race, religion or color, or where they are lucky enough to live, but by IQ and Behavior. Have the class schedule geared towards the fact that they have higher IQ.

Level 3: Lower IQ - Low Behavior Problems
No all behavioral problems are due to kids not being as smart. Allow these kids to be free of problem children, while still learning. Have the coarse geared towards jobs they might thrive in and make a decent living, such as a trade. Recognize the fact that not all kids are meant for college, but still need to make a decent living.

Level 4: Moderate Behavior Problems
Have a mixed criteria, but have a STRONG emphasis on discipline and social skills. Absolutely zero tolerance for class clowning or bullying. Uniforms required.

Level 5: High Behavior Problems
Military Style School. This is boarding school (meaning they are overnight) and its the equivalent to a military school like boot camp. Emphasis here is to knock the bad out of these kids.

Note:
(1) From Age 9-13 children can go up or down at the end of the school year based on behavior improvements (or behavior digression) and improvement in IQ (or decreases in IQ).
(2) From Age 13-15 (Junior High) - They can still go up and down, but its much harder.
(3) By Highschool, they are locked in for the long run, except for boot camp. The best they can get is Moderate Behavior.
(4) After Age 8: Parent do have the option to sending their child to private school or home schooling (however, homeschooling is held to high standards and end of the year passing skill test are required).

 

[Douger]

Stop shoving politics down the students throats.
Teach them the basics. The basics needed to get succesfully by in life.
Get rid of the revisionist "HISTORY" books....Teach them the truth.
Put those beautiful american flags back in the classroom.
If a kid wants to pray, let 'em pray.....If not, fine.
Fire all the teachers who's students on average are failing.
Do away with unionized teachers.

Brilliant.
stop shoving politi.....put the beautiful flags back.........
Duh troof ? Hi kiddies. This nation was founded by war, slavery and genocide.
Fire a teacher who is unfortunate enough to be trying to keep a bunch of baggy pant, gold toofed, porch monkeys from killing each other.
Get rid of the unions and get some minimum wage teachers to fix the problem.


My thoughts ?
Bring back corporal punishment. ProblemS solved.
Kinda hard to do now since...... dem kid B kayin day gunz ta skoo

 

[chanel]

I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think. Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.

Wry - if I had to pick ONE thing - it would be this: All K-3 teachers must be reading certified. Any child who is not reading at grade level by third grade will be retained until they are able . There is NO excuse for students to be reading at 2-3 level in the upper levels unless the child is SERIOUSLY handicapped (which is only about 2% of the population).

I teach reading at the high school level. You can only imagine the anger and frustration of my students at age 16. They are NOT dumb, but they think they are. Passing them along to high school is almost abusive in my opinion. I get a great deal of parent support (most of the parents request me) because if there is ONE thing they want for their child, it is basic literacy to be able to function in the real world. There is no greater responsibility for the schools in my opinion - and no greater waste of money than to give a kid a diploma that he cannot even read.

 

[Annie]

So kids won't have the freedom or liberty to choose what they do. Automatically throw low iq people into trade positions? Bs what's the cutoff?

Our education system isn't the entire problem, it's the parents and the support system they have. Teachers have to teach more kids at 25K a year. Why would the smartest people want to work for such a low wage? We have to make the education a key aspect in our society, make it cool, make it fun to be smart. Don't just teach the basics of life, teach more.

I would completely remove it from the County level and move it to the State Level. Then I would set up various levels of school based on intelligence levels and behavioral problems.

Here is how it works: School starts at age 4 going 5 days a week. Parents may be CRIMINALLY liable for not making their kids go to school.

From age 4 -8 they are in the observation state. They start to get taught basic academic and social skills. They are judge on education factors as well as behavioral factors (not by the teacher, but from obervational people). As the years go on they start to get segregated by behavioral problems as well as IQ.

(1) By Age 9: The Children get situation into 1 of 5 school types. Each type being strategically located throughout the state, so try to provide access to all of them. These levels are based on IQ as well as behavior.

Level 1: Genius Level.
Geniuses needs to be identified and challenged early on. We need to get them into schools where they can be groomed to be the next Eisensteins!

Level 2: Higher IQ - Low Behavior Problems
Big problem with schools today is the smart kids get intimidated by kids with behavior problems. Segregate them out based not on race, religion or color, or where they are lucky enough to live, but by IQ and Behavior. Have the class schedule geared towards the fact that they have higher IQ.

Level 3: Lower IQ - Low Behavior Problems
No all behavioral problems are due to kids not being as smart. Allow these kids to be free of problem children, while still learning. Have the coarse geared towards jobs they might thrive in and make a decent living, such as a trade. Recognize the fact that not all kids are meant for college, but still need to make a decent living.

Level 4: Moderate Behavior Problems
Have a mixed criteria, but have a STRONG emphasis on discipline and social skills. Absolutely zero tolerance for class clowning or bullying. Uniforms required.

Level 5: High Behavior Problems
Military Style School. This is boarding school (meaning they are overnight) and its the equivalent to a military school like boot camp. Emphasis here is to knock the bad out of these kids.

Note:
(1) From Age 9-13 children can go up or down at the end of the school year based on behavior improvements (or behavior digression) and improvement in IQ (or decreases in IQ).
(2) From Age 13-15 (Junior High) - They can still go up and down, but its much harder.
(3) By Highschool, they are locked in for the long run, except for boot camp. The best they can get is Moderate Behavior.
(4) After Age 8: Parent do have the option to sending their child to private school or home schooling (however, homeschooling is held to high standards and end of the year passing skill test are required).

Teachers have a difficult job, one that only someone who likes kids and teaching should be doing. However, they do it for more than $25k on average:

In the more populated areas, where the schools often are more troubled, salaries are higher. My own state, one that spends more to borrow money than Mexico:

Illinois Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in IL: $58,686

If you are considering becoming a teacher in Illinois, you will make the third highest teacher salary in the country. The average Illinois teacher salary starts at $37,500 and averages $58,686 a year. Starting salaries are the fourth highest in the nation. This fact is especially attractive to new teachers who want to complete a masters degree early on in their careers; bumping them up the pay scale.

I live in one of the 5 counties including Chicago, here is my hs district pay scale:

 

[Annie]

Interesting all this talk about testing teachers for proficiency in the subject they teach. What does this do to homeschooling where the average housewife teaches all subjects at different grade levels to their kids. Should the have to pass proficiency tests for math, english, science, history etc. from 1st grade thru 12th? Could anyone pass that?

Is my tax dollar paying for mom to home school? Home Schooling requires proficiency testing of the child to pass each grade level.

So does public school.

Yeah, but not with the diversity of abilities, learning styles, and one-on-one attention. If the parent is able to master the materials in high school well enough to teach it, more power to them. Most home schooling parents I know teach what they know well, even AP courses, but what they don't? They swap subjects with another parents, enroll them in local high schools for certain courses, (usually by high school including PE, music, art, for social reasons), or enroll them in community college at 000 or 100 level.

 

[editec]

Believe it not, as liberal as I probably seem to many of you, I'd make schools much more strict than they currently are.

There's so many things I'd change about our educational system, starting with how its funded, who runs them, and how they'd be run, that you wouldn't recognize the editecian eduucational system.

For instance?

We'd have one national school system (funded nationally) with one standard set of classes and requirements for graduation.

I have absolutely no confidence in the theory that school ought to be run locally.

And if one looks at the wildly different outcomes that one gets between school districts, one ought to be able to see why I have no confidence in the system we have in place now.

Two nearby school districts whose students are demographically similar can have very different student outcomes.

Why?

Because the management of the schools can be so very very different and much of that stems from very different school board expectations.

This does a great disservice to students, folks.

 

[Annie]

Believe it not, as liberal as I probably seem to many of you, I'd make schools much more strict than they currently are.

There's so many things I'd change about our educational system, starting with how its funded, who runs them, and how they'd be run, that you wouldn't recognize the editecian eduucational system.

For instance?

We'd have one national school system (funded nationally) with one standard set of classes and requirements for graduation.

I have absolutely no confidence in the theory that school ought to be run locally.

And if one looks at the wildly different outcomes that one gets between school districts, one ought to be able to see why I have no confidence in the system we have in place now.

Two nearby school districts whose students are demographically similar can have very different student outcomes.

Why?

Because the management of the schools can be so very very different and much of that stems from very different school board expectations.

This does a great disservice to students, folks.

So put the 'Fed' in charge? Who perchance do you think the Fed would have implementing its goals and objectives? Oh yeah, some locals. Same results, less control, more levels of corruption. Great idea.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think. Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.

Wry - if I had to pick ONE thing - it would be this: All K-3 teachers must be reading certified. Any child who is not reading at grade level by third grade will be retained until they are able . There is NO excuse for students to be reading at 2-3 level in the upper levels unless the child is SERIOUSLY handicapped (which is only about 2% of the population).

I teach reading at the high school level. You can only imagine the anger and frustration of my students at age 16. They are NOT dumb, but they think they are. Passing them along to high school is almost abusive in my opinion. I get a great deal of parent support (most of the parents request me) because if there is ONE thing they want for their child, it is basic literacy to be able to function in the real world. There is no greater responsibility for the schools in my opinion - and no greater waste of money than to give a kid a diploma that he cannot even read.

Reading and Reading comprehension is the foundation for educational success as long as we keep teaching the same way we always have; for many this is not the case. For example, My oldest son is a whiz at math but tires quickly when he sits down to read (I can recall spending a full day simply reading, and I was generally a very physically active kid). When we would get something to put together (a gas BBQ, furnature or setting up a home wireless network) I always read the instructions. Sometimes my oldest son has the project half-done by the time I've read the instructions.
It's fun to watch. He picks up parts and studies them as he pieces things together. I remember, in grad school, we took the WAIS and the exercise with the Red and White blocks was particularly interesting. Some of us looked and studied the diagram and then tried to match it; others looked at the diagram and started playing with it - the tactial learners were almost always quicker.
My point being we all have are own learning style and we should not be too quick to label a child as 'disabled'. If success leads to success, surely failure leads to further failure; finding what best works for a child is a difficult problem but one which needs to become a priority.
Maybe assigning kids to classes by age is a mistake and having IEP meetings where the child and his/her parents are made to feel the child is 'broken' make matters worse.

In short we agree on the importance of reading, my concern is the method should do no harm.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.

Moreover, the US "Educational" system is designed to eliminate teachers like Mr Kadish.

He became an administrator and in an effort to try to break him, the NYC Board of Ed made him a substitute principal at the absolute worst elementary school in the city, on Faile Street in the South Bronx.

Well, they picked on the wrong guy.

When Micheal got to the school he met with every teacher and told them that he wanted the name and home phone number of every student who did not do their homework, the teachers smirked and complied.

The next day some parents almost fainted dead away when they got a call from, "Mr Kadish, the principal at your son/daughter school, stressing the importance of parental involvement and the need to make sure homework was done."

He would visit every classroom and he insisted that the kids applaud when he enter the room (OK, so he's a little dramatic) This way they knew who was in change and who they could turn to.

The next thing he did was to ask the city to change the name of the street from "Faile St" to "Success Place" because nobody should have to go to school on Faile Street.

The city complied and the Board of Ed took out the long knives. They found a new and better position for Mr. Kadish...behind a desk in Brooklyn where he would never have to interact with students.

See, Michael was an embarrassment. He was exposing the institutionalized failure that is NYC Education, the UFT and the US Department of Ed.

When he was reassigned the school protested! They demanded that they keep the one and only educator who ever cared. But Michael went to Brooklyn, the kids and parents were crushed, the UFT was happy.

Jimmy Breslin wrote about him. You can look it up.

 

[Wry Catcher]

My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.

Moreover, the US "Educational" system is designed to eliminate teachers like Mr Kadish.

He became an administrator and in an effort to try to break him, the NYC Board of Ed made him a substitute principal at the absolute worst elementary school in the city, on Faile Street in the South Bronx.

Well, they picked on the wrong guy.

When Micheal got to the school he met with every teacher and told them that he wanted the name and home phone number of every student who did not do their homework, the teachers smirked and complied.

The next day some parents almost fainted dead away when they got a call from, "Mr Kadish, the principal at your son/daughter school, stressing the importance of parental involvement and the need to make sure homework was done."

He would visit every classroom and he insisted that the kids applaud when he enter the room (OK, so he's a little dramatic) This way they knew who was in change and who they could turn to.

The next thing he did was to ask the city to change the name of the street from "Faile St" to "Success Place" because nobody should have to go to school on Faile Street.

The city complied and the Board of Ed took out the long knives. They found a new and better position for Mr. Kadish...behind a desk in Brooklyn where he would never have to interact with students.

See, Michael was an embarrassment. He was exposing the institutionalized failure that is NYC Education, the UFT and the US Department of Ed.

When he was reassigned the school protested! They demanded that they keep the one and only educator who ever cared. But Michael went to Brooklyn, the kids and parents were crushed, the UFT was happy.

Jimmy Breslin wrote about him. You can look it up.

CF, you finally get it. Support for a progressive and the rejection of a conservative approach. Damn, there is hope for you yet. Change can be good, old ideas must be challenged and Lemon Cream Pies made from lemons.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.

Moreover, the US "Educational" system is designed to eliminate teachers like Mr Kadish.

He became an administrator and in an effort to try to break him, the NYC Board of Ed made him a substitute principal at the absolute worst elementary school in the city, on Faile Street in the South Bronx.

Well, they picked on the wrong guy.

When Micheal got to the school he met with every teacher and told them that he wanted the name and home phone number of every student who did not do their homework, the teachers smirked and complied.

The next day some parents almost fainted dead away when they got a call from, "Mr Kadish, the principal at your son/daughter school, stressing the importance of parental involvement and the need to make sure homework was done."

He would visit every classroom and he insisted that the kids applaud when he enter the room (OK, so he's a little dramatic) This way they knew who was in change and who they could turn to.

The next thing he did was to ask the city to change the name of the street from "Faile St" to "Success Place" because nobody should have to go to school on Faile Street.

The city complied and the Board of Ed took out the long knives. They found a new and better position for Mr. Kadish...behind a desk in Brooklyn where he would never have to interact with students.

See, Michael was an embarrassment. He was exposing the institutionalized failure that is NYC Education, the UFT and the US Department of Ed.

When he was reassigned the school protested! They demanded that they keep the one and only educator who ever cared. But Michael went to Brooklyn, the kids and parents were crushed, the UFT was happy.

Jimmy Breslin wrote about him. You can look it up.

CF, you finally get it. Support for a progressive and the rejection of a conservative approach. Damn, there is hope for you yet. Change can be good, old ideas must be challenged and Lemon Cream Pies made from lemons.

Call it what you will. I support the Spirit.

 

[Wry Catcher]

My 8th grade science teacher Michael Kadish, was the best educator on the planet. He could make kids who thought that science was nerdy get psyched about it. But he made the same salary as the worst history teacher on the planet, my 8th grade history teacher, a woman who bragged she had the same lesson plan for 20 years.

Moreover, the US "Educational" system is designed to eliminate teachers like Mr Kadish.

He became an administrator and in an effort to try to break him, the NYC Board of Ed made him a substitute principal at the absolute worst elementary school in the city, on Faile Street in the South Bronx.

Well, they picked on the wrong guy.

When Micheal got to the school he met with every teacher and told them that he wanted the name and home phone number of every student who did not do their homework, the teachers smirked and complied.

The next day some parents almost fainted dead away when they got a call from, "Mr Kadish, the principal at your son/daughter school, stressing the importance of parental involvement and the need to make sure homework was done."

He would visit every classroom and he insisted that the kids applaud when he enter the room (OK, so he's a little dramatic) This way they knew who was in change and who they could turn to.

The next thing he did was to ask the city to change the name of the street from "Faile St" to "Success Place" because nobody should have to go to school on Faile Street.

The city complied and the Board of Ed took out the long knives. They found a new and better position for Mr. Kadish...behind a desk in Brooklyn where he would never have to interact with students.

See, Michael was an embarrassment. He was exposing the institutionalized failure that is NYC Education, the UFT and the US Department of Ed.

When he was reassigned the school protested! They demanded that they keep the one and only educator who ever cared. But Michael went to Brooklyn, the kids and parents were crushed, the UFT was happy.

Jimmy Breslin wrote about him. You can look it up.

CF, you finally get it. Support for a progressive and the rejection of a conservative approach. Damn, there is hope for you yet. Change can be good, old ideas must be challenged and Lemon Cream Pies made from lemons.

Call it what you will. I support the Spirit.

Me too.

 

[psikeyhackr]

At this moment I am accessing this site with the $99 Sylvania smartbook from CVS. It took a bunch of fiddling around with manual configuration to get the wireless working but it does work.

I can watch Youtube videos from Khan Academy.

So one smartbook per child should be possible in the US.

psik

PS - A smartbook uses an ARM processor instead of an Intel so this thing is not a netbook.

 

[rikules]

I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think. Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.

I would STOP grouping kids according to age and START grouping them according to intellect and maturity levels


not all 7 year olds are on the same intellectual/maturity level

 

[ConHog]

I have some ideas but would like to hear what others think. Please, leave the partisan rhetoric out and offer the best ideas you have.

I would STOP grouping kids according to age and START grouping them according to intellect and maturity levels


not all 7 year olds are on the same intellectual/maturity level

Unfortunately the net result of that would be dumb 12 y/os picking on smart 8 y/os.