I Don't Think Many Of You Know What "Confronted" Means

[OohPooPahDoo]

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent.

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

 

[Peach]

A dispute?

Chasing down a teenager because you have issues with black men is a dispute?

One person tracking and one person fleeing is not a dispute.

Try again.

He had issues with his community being hit by burglaries and robberies in epidemic proportions. As hard as you want to try this has not been proven to be a race issue.
The transcripts of the 911 call can not make out and confirm any racial names called.
To date that is a myth spread by the vast legal team for the girl friend.

That is as much a myth as "I think he said punks not coons".

One of the strongest indications comes from CNN, which asked an audio expert to closely examine a crucial 1.6 seconds of the recording.

On Zimmerman’s 911 Call, What Sounds Like a Racial Slur*|*Florida Center for Investigative Reporting

What stood out, on first listen, was Zimmerman describing “a real suspicious guy” who “looks like he’s up to no good,” and adding, “These assholes, they always get away.” Also commanding attention was the dispatcher’s telling Zimmerman not to follow the man.

But after The Young Turks played tapes on the Internet video show on Monday, listeners contacted them to say, “You missed something.” Host Cent Uygur credited his viewers for the catch: “You put up anything on YouTube, they will dissect it, second by second.”

On Tuesday, the show followed up with a segment strongly suggesting the mumbled sounds were the words “fucking coons.” The angle gained traction when blogger ZappoDave on the Daily Kos also began writing about it on Tuesday, and cable TV talk shows soon began broaching the subject.

Last night on MSNBC, Jasmine Rand, an attorney for the Martin family, said that the words were not audible on the version of the tapes that Sanford police provided to the family. “So at this time, until the family can verify that that was an official version from the Sanford Police Department, the family cannot stand by those terms,” Rand said.

But the words do appear to be present on the tapes released over the weekend and published Monday by the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting. They can be heard, however indistinctly, at the 2:21 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call:

If Zimmerman indeed made the racist remark, the legal consequences could be severe. As legal writer Jeffrey Toobin pointed out, homicide is not a federal crime. But a homicide motivated by racial animus — that is a federal hate crime, and it could result in very serious charges

MURDER is a very serious charge; Zimmerman could face that on the STATE level.

 

[Rozman]

The sad thing is maybe there is something to be gained here by all this attention.
Some good may come to the parents of the child but there is mileage to be gained by those around this
killing.The Rev Al has made a very nice career for himself off tragedy's like this.
He has gotten a radio and TV show and a Presidential run as well.
To be fair Curtis Sliwa of the guardian angels got a career from what he was doing.
TV and the rest of the media will gain ratings from the coverage.

Everybody has gotten into this for their own self interests.

 

[Crackerjack]

I know this how Zimmerman was allowed to leave the scene with the murder weapon

According to the police report, the firearm used in the incident was confiscated by the police at the scene and entered into evidence. Please see the last page.

Yup, most of these people know very very little about the case, they only know what the media tells them.

I live in Orlando, 5 miles from Sanford. I've known about this for more than two weeks. I don't know if he's guilty or not, but I do know that demands for an arrest are being done by a lynch mob. They are wrong and they need to let the police handle it.

I really don't get why people believe that an arrest will somehow break the case open. Other than getting a mug shot and fingerprints, there is nothing else that will happen. He'll take the Fifth if they attempt to question him and, unless the DA charges him with something, he'll be let go within 48 hours.

Some people watch too much Law & Order, I guess.

 

[High_Gravity]

And you know this how?

Because I am God.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[High_Gravity]

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent.

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

Actually isn't that a crime of passion?

 

[The T]

The sad thing is maybe there is something to be gained here by all this attention.
Some good may come to the parents of the child but there is mileage to be gained by those around this
killing.The Rev Al has made a very nice career for himself off tragedy's like this.
He has gotten a radio and TV show and a Presidential run as well.
To be fair Curtis Sliwa of the guardian angels got a career from what he was doing.
TV and the rest of the media will gain ratings from the coverage.

Everybody has gotten into this for their own self interests.

Say Twanna Brawley around the attention-Whore the not-so-reverend Sharpton and watch his stupid ass come unglued.

 

[Crackerjack]

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent.

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

Actually isn't that a crime of passion?

Voluntary manslaughter at common law.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

People are arrested all the time without concrete evidence, even denied bail while awaiting trial. What evidence do I see Zimmerman may not(note the may not) have a case for claiming self defense? The fact he started the confrontation and pulled a gun, if Trayvon did fight with him it was most likely because he was trying to defend himself from a big guy with a gun. Zimmerman had over 100 lbs on the kid. Now unless the kids a damn ninja, I see no way he could be seen as a physical threat to him. The 9-11 tape where it's clear it's a young kids voice screaming for help. That wasn't Zimmerman. We've heard his chat with the 9-11 operator, and it's also clear as day, regardless what the news is saying, that Zimmerman called him a "fucking coon". Thats enough evidence for most prosecutors.

There is no concrete evidence in this case. Starting the confrontation? You mean by following him. That is not evidence that he was attacked by the victim. You do realize that this "kid" was substantially bigger and stronger than what you see in the photos. He was a football player. Weight, however means little. If Zimmerman who looks like he eats at McDonalds way too often, was following the guy, he might have been totally breathless when the attack happened.

Again, you were not there, you are totally speculating.

You do not know that that wasn't Zimmerman. You do not know that at all.

If he called him a coon, it is not evidence for a charge of murder, nor is it proof in any way that Martin did not attack him.

You have absolutely zero proof that it didn't happen the way Zimmerman said it did. None at all.

The 9-11 call from the neighbor clearly contains the voice of a younger boy screaming for help. The fact you claim that something I've heard with my own 2 ears is "speculation" is hilarious, I've listened to the uncut call from Zimmerman saying"they always get away" and "fucking coons". That was said prior to the shooting, sir. There doesn't have to be concrete evidence, circumstantial evidence is admissable in court, you know that right?

You don't seem to understand the justice system very well.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this POS has not been arrested and charged yet. Whether or not he shot and killed the victim is not in dispute by anyone. Given that, and given the fact that all the evidence available other than Zimmerman's claims suggest Zimmerman was not in danger of being harmed, its pretty clear what should be done.

BUT IN FLORIDA ITS LEGAL FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE.

And that is quite clearly a FACT

 

[High_Gravity]

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

Actually isn't that a crime of passion?

Voluntary manslaughter at common law.

Hmm does that vary by state?

 

[LockeJaw]

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent.

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

You make no sense. How did you get the silly notion I don't believe there are more heinous forms and degrees of murder? You assume too much.

 

[jillian]

The way people are politicizing this tragedy that never shouldve happened is sickening. With the evidence we as those on the outside looking in should, to any reasonable person, show you Zimmerman should at the very least be charged and put on trial. You've got Al Sharptongue out there leeching off the situation and a bunch of assholes trying to link this to the Stand Your Ground law in FL and bringing up the banning of guns. The guy obviously went after the kid and started the whole thing. I don't have any respect for these people trying to promote their pet causes piggy backing off the unnecessary death of a young man.

I feel for the family and believe that they are right in demanding he be charged and tried, I wouldn't blame them for wanting Zimmerman put to death. But these marching idiots making it a racial issue are nothing more than agitators. I can understand Trayvon's family, friends, neighbors protesting. But alot these people making speeches and marching and commenting on the news who don't know him are just out to promote their causes, they didn't know this young man, nor do they genuinely care about his death in general, and it shows when they turn it into a race issue.

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent. As far as sentencing it should have no bearing. No life is worth more than another. So let's knock off the bullshit and just let what happens happen. If Zimmerman faces trial, as I believe he should, it shouldnt be because of marches, tv comments, and peoples feelings.

It should be because of the evidence.

Alright.... Done ranting. I had to get that off my chest. Spent a good hour arguing with my father over this this morning.

except that it IS about race. if a black man killed a white kid after pursuing them for no reason, we'd be talking about whether the guy should do life or get the death penalty.

so you can complain, but a lot of people marched for civil rights, too.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent.

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

Actually isn't that a crime of passion?

Yeah. And if I kill her because she's black, the law defines it as a hate crime. According to LockeJaw, those things shouldn't matter.

 

[emilynghiem]

Understood and I agree with the exception of whether it's cut and dried or not. I could very well be a cut and dried case. We just don't know. As of this very minute, Zimmerman has not been arrested and charged. I would think that if they actually had any kind of case against him, he would be in custody. The Sanford Police are no longer in charge but the FBI, and a new prosecutor have still not had him arrested. The only thing we can rule out at this point is that it is a cut and dried case of murder.

I agree with you on most points, but the fact they haven't arrested him yet means nothing. They've got procedures to go through, evidence to analyze, etc. that this happened only 3 weeks ago and they just treated it like an open and shut case of self defense is appalling. It shows a lazy police department at best, a biased at worst. I'm not going to say just because he said what he said on the 9-11 tape he should be convicted, that doesn't prove he wasn't defending himself but it does provide a motive for his overreaction. The Martin family is right to pressure the cops to be thorough. But like you, all I want is to see justice be done. And justice in my opinion from what I know, is at least bringing the man up for trial. Ultimately it's up to the cops and courts.

I agree with you up until that last part I bolded. The purpose of a trial is not to discover facts, it is to determine guilt. The investigation is over once the trial begins.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you would more correctly articulate your opinion by desiring to see his case brought before a grand jury, as that is the instrument for determining whether all the available evidence against the proposed defendant is enough to justify a trial.

Either way, you are gambling with your rights and security
if you depend on courts or cops or government to determine truth and justice.
Good luck with that!

The deeper message this whole incident carries
is that none of us can afford to gamble with our lives.

We can't have crime unchecked in our neighborhoods.
We can't afford NOT to know who are neighbors are,
and which people have which problem to watch out for.

We can't afford to run around policing or walking around alone by ourselves,
but need to work together in groups and need to know each other.

I think people respond to this case, depending on which person they can relate to.
If you can put yourself in the shoes of the shooter, and ask what would you do if
you were reacting to break-ins and having to police things yourself because the
legal sytem and law enforcement only responds after the fact, if there is enough
evidence to intervene.
Or if you identify and sympathize with the young man, and wonder what would happen
if you were by yourself and got into a confrontation with no other witnesses.
Both scenarios are equally disturbing to me, if I were in either person's position.

I just know that if I KNEW these men personally in advance, then I would be better able to interact with them to diffuse any hostile situation. That is the only way I see to avoid tragedies like this from happening, we have to know one another and not leave things to chance and guessing what someone might do.

All neighborhoods, communities, families and groups should make a commitment to get to know everyone around them, break down the walls and barriers, quit hiding our problems and get help for people with serious issues that could become a danger or hazard,
and not leave things to chance confrontation, especially not with guns involved.

If we are serious about law enforcement, preventing either crime or accidents, and any political, religious or racial conflict from becoming a physical or legal confrontation, we need to resolve issues far in advance instead of waiting for them to blow up in our faces.

After 9/11 I saw a lot more people being compassionate and appreciative of other people, even strangers passing on the street. May this incident have that same effect on people. May all the negativity being drawn out now be released as part of a healing process, so this moves toward a better place than where we were before as a society. Peace to all.

 

[DiamondDave]

There is no concrete evidence in this case. Starting the confrontation? You mean by following him. That is not evidence that he was attacked by the victim. You do realize that this "kid" was substantially bigger and stronger than what you see in the photos. He was a football player. Weight, however means little. If Zimmerman who looks like he eats at McDonalds way too often, was following the guy, he might have been totally breathless when the attack happened.

Again, you were not there, you are totally speculating.

You do not know that that wasn't Zimmerman. You do not know that at all.

If he called him a coon, it is not evidence for a charge of murder, nor is it proof in any way that Martin did not attack him.

You have absolutely zero proof that it didn't happen the way Zimmerman said it did. None at all.

The 9-11 call from the neighbor clearly contains the voice of a younger boy screaming for help. The fact you claim that something I've heard with my own 2 ears is "speculation" is hilarious, I've listened to the uncut call from Zimmerman saying"they always get away" and "fucking coons". That was said prior to the shooting, sir. There doesn't have to be concrete evidence, circumstantial evidence is admissable in court, you know that right?

You don't seem to understand the justice system very well.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this POS has not been arrested and charged yet. Whether or not he shot and killed the victim is not in dispute by anyone. Given that, and given the fact that all the evidence available other than Zimmerman's claims suggest Zimmerman was not in danger of being harmed, its pretty clear what should be done.

BUT IN FLORIDA ITS LEGAL FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE.

And that is quite clearly a FACT

Well.. there we have it folks... the STUPID POST OF THE MONTH

 

[The T]

The 9-11 call from the neighbor clearly contains the voice of a younger boy screaming for help. The fact you claim that something I've heard with my own 2 ears is "speculation" is hilarious, I've listened to the uncut call from Zimmerman saying"they always get away" and "fucking coons". That was said prior to the shooting, sir. There doesn't have to be concrete evidence, circumstantial evidence is admissable in court, you know that right?

You don't seem to understand the justice system very well.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this POS has not been arrested and charged yet. Whether or not he shot and killed the victim is not in dispute by anyone. Given that, and given the fact that all the evidence available other than Zimmerman's claims suggest Zimmerman was not in danger of being harmed, its pretty clear what should be done.

BUT IN FLORIDA ITS LEGAL FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE.

And that is quite clearly a FACT

Well.. there we have it folks... the STUPID POST OF THE MONTH

Agreed. Racists always bear themselves out don't they?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent.

So you don't believe there should be a difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, either, I take it. Its still murder, right?

Shouldn't all illegal homicides be treated the same by your logic?

If I catch my wife red handed cheating on me and kill her in the heat of the moment - that's just as bad as plotting and successfully killing my wife to cash in on her insurance money, right? She's dead in both cases. And the only difference is the thoughts going on in my head. So why should't I be punished exactly the same in both cases?

In fact - why don't we toss out the element of the mind set of the criminal entirely and make all criminal laws strict liability laws.

You make no sense. How did you get the silly notion I don't believe there are more heinous forms and degrees of murder? You assume too much.

From your words: . "Murder is murder"

You seem to arbitrarily decide whether or not the mind of the criminal should have anything to do with the severity of their penalty. It should if its a question of whether or not the murder was planned before hand, but should not if its a question of whether or not the murder was intended to harm only the victim or was it intended to both harm the victim and terrorize an entire class of people?

That makes no sense.

A) I kill you because you look at me wrong in a bar and I was drunk and stupid.

B) I kill you because I know you have $10,000 in cash on you and I want it, so I lay in waiting and sneak up on you and stab you in the back and take the money.

You say B is worse than A and B should be punished more



I agree

B) I kill you because I know you have $10,000 in cash on you and I want it.

C) I kill you because I hate people of your race and I want to not only kill you, but inspire fear of death and general terror in everyone else in your race (I may, for instance, want them to be afraid to go to the polls and vote - or afraid to live in my nice white gated neighborhood)

Yet C is not worse than B.

Seems you draw the line arbitrarily.

 

[California Girl]

There is no concrete evidence in this case. Starting the confrontation? You mean by following him. That is not evidence that he was attacked by the victim. You do realize that this "kid" was substantially bigger and stronger than what you see in the photos. He was a football player. Weight, however means little. If Zimmerman who looks like he eats at McDonalds way too often, was following the guy, he might have been totally breathless when the attack happened.

Again, you were not there, you are totally speculating.

You do not know that that wasn't Zimmerman. You do not know that at all.

If he called him a coon, it is not evidence for a charge of murder, nor is it proof in any way that Martin did not attack him.

You have absolutely zero proof that it didn't happen the way Zimmerman said it did. None at all.

The 9-11 call from the neighbor clearly contains the voice of a younger boy screaming for help. The fact you claim that something I've heard with my own 2 ears is "speculation" is hilarious, I've listened to the uncut call from Zimmerman saying"they always get away" and "fucking coons". That was said prior to the shooting, sir. There doesn't have to be concrete evidence, circumstantial evidence is admissable in court, you know that right?

You don't seem to understand the justice system very well.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this POS has not been arrested and charged yet. Whether or not he shot and killed the victim is not in dispute by anyone. Given that, and given the fact that all the evidence available other than Zimmerman's claims suggest Zimmerman was not in danger of being harmed, its pretty clear what should be done.

BUT IN FLORIDA ITS LEGAL FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE.

And that is quite clearly a FACT

Not according to the standard definition of the word 'fact'.

 

[Crackerjack]

Actually isn't that a crime of passion?

Voluntary manslaughter at common law.

Hmm does that vary by state?

They call it different things in different states, but most all of them consider a crime of passion murder to be a lesser crime than a premeditated murder.

 

[The T]

The 9-11 call from the neighbor clearly contains the voice of a younger boy screaming for help. The fact you claim that something I've heard with my own 2 ears is "speculation" is hilarious, I've listened to the uncut call from Zimmerman saying"they always get away" and "fucking coons". That was said prior to the shooting, sir. There doesn't have to be concrete evidence, circumstantial evidence is admissable in court, you know that right?

You don't seem to understand the justice system very well.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this POS has not been arrested and charged yet. Whether or not he shot and killed the victim is not in dispute by anyone. Given that, and given the fact that all the evidence available other than Zimmerman's claims suggest Zimmerman was not in danger of being harmed, its pretty clear what should be done.

BUT IN FLORIDA ITS LEGAL FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE.

And that is quite clearly a FACT

Not according to the standard definition of the word 'fact'.

Or the word 'LEGAL'.