I Don't Think Many Of You Know What "Confronted" Means

[Peach]

i dont understand why this "story" is so goddamn important. people die all the time...shit happens. this is not special.

Shit happens? A kid is dead and it appears - certainly on the face of it - that little, if any, investigation took place as to why he is dead... you don't have to be a parent to understand why this is not 'shit happens'. Your comment was pathetic.

I agree again with Cali Girl; the talking heads USING the death are disgusting. But would there have been a Grand Jury without an angry segment of the population?

 

[Si modo]

Ravi the law does not protect what this zimmerman guy did, how is it a bad law?

People claiming the law protects this do not understand the law itself. Or they are intentionally misrepresenting it to use this tragedy as a vehicle to attack the law, which had nothing to do with zimmerman murdering the kid and doesn't protect zimmerman.

In fact there is language in this law that specifically says what zimmerman did isn't protected.

Could you quote the part of the statute that you believe specifically says what Zimmerman did is not protected, please?

I've looked at the statute many times looking for something, and I don't find it.

Thanks.

First I'll quote the authors of the law itself Stand Your Ground authors: Trayvon Martin’s shooter should likely be charged, avoid immunity - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

“They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.”

Peaden and Baxley, R-Ocala, say their law is a self-defense act. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat from an attacker and can meet “force with force.” Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another.

The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

“The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

Peaden and Baxley said they didn’t know all the facts of the case, so their interpretations of what happened could change if new information arises during the investigation.

The place I read the statute two days ago is now no longer online http://election.dos.state.fl.us/laws/05laws/ch_2005-027.pdf i will find it elsewhere for you asap

Here is the statute: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

That is what is currently on the books.

So, if you could, I would also like to find something in that law that disallows what happened, but I can't.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Both sides have people using this incident as a soapbox for something.

Politically this was a non story prior to sharpton and the usual cast of characters injected politics into it. And now Obama has stirred up a political firestorm with his comments. Naturally the right isn't going to sit by while their integrity is being besmerched on national tv hourly.

This is 100% instigated by the left.

What did Obama say?

If he had w son he would look like the victim in this case. Tying his sympathy to race. Disgusting

 

[PredFan]

And you know this HOW?? You know whether the investigators are sweeping it under the rug or doing their due diligence to make sure that if charges are brought against anyone, that they stick because there are not holes in the case because they rushed things??

We have a winner folks!

And it is not the family politicizing and using this as a stage... it is everyone from politicians, extremist groups, vigilante groups, talk show hosts, media networks, etc that are politicizing this....

Yuppers.

It is a shame that this grandstanding is taking away from a tragic death of someone young.... condolences should be going to the family so that they can get beyond this and heal in whatever way they can.... and that will not happen when you have grandstanding by talking heads and agenda driven assholes

 

[California Girl]

The way people are politicizing this tragedy that never shouldve happened is sickening. With the evidence we as those on the outside looking in should, to any reasonable person, show you Zimmerman should at the very least be charged and put on trial. You've got Al Sharptongue out there leeching off the situation and a bunch of assholes trying to link this to the Stand Your Ground law in FL and bringing up the banning of guns. The guy obviously went after the kid and started the whole thing. I don't have any respect for these people trying to promote their pet causes piggy backing off the unnecessary death of a young man.

I feel for the family and believe that they are right in demanding he be charged and tried, I wouldn't blame them for wanting Zimmerman put to death. But these marching idiots making it a racial issue are nothing more than agitators. I can understand Trayvon's family, friends, neighbors protesting. But alot these people making speeches and marching and commenting on the news who don't know him are just out to promote their causes, they didn't know this young man, nor do they genuinely care about his death in general, and it shows when they turn it into a race issue.

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent. As far as sentencing it should have no bearing. No life is worth more than another. So let's knock off the bullshit and just let what happens happen. If Zimmerman faces trial, as I believe he should, it shouldnt be because of marches, tv comments, and peoples feelings.

It should be because of the evidence.

Alright.... Done ranting. I had to get that off my chest. Spent a good hour arguing with my father over this this morning.

I agree with pretty much everything you say. I think, if I were a local resident, I would want an investigation into the actions of the local police. Most certainly, an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death of Martin is warranted. If there is evidence of wrong doing, Zimmerman should face the consequences of those actions.

Like you, I think that the likes of Sharpton are - yet again - using this tragedy for political mileage and deliberately causing unrest and tensions between racial groups. That is truly disgusting.

I am a local resident. I live 5 miles from Sanford. I have been hearing about this story for almost all of the time since it happened. We do not know the whole story, we do not know what happened. The way the law works is that the shooter has claimed that it was self-defense and gave his story to prove it. It doesn't matter if the police believe his story or not, if they have no proof that it happened any other way than the way he said it did, then they cannot arrest him. It shouldn't matter if Al Sharpton comes down here and rants his racist rhetoric all day long. The law is the law, due process is due process, and this is still America and we still have a 5th Amendment.

I don't disagree. I have not formed an opinion of guilt or innocence - and I have, in the main, avoided any media coverage... the media are notorious for filling in missing facts by making up their own theories. Never a good way to form an opinion.

I've supported due process from the beginning of this... and I will continue to do so. I don't want the police to be railroaded to charge Zimmerman unless there is evidence of wrong doing. Justice is not served by sending an innocent person to jail to calm the race baiters.... nor is it served if a guilty man goes free because the police did not do their job right.

This is not a cut and dried case, it is not a done deal.... but a kid is dead and his family have the right to expect - and demand - that it is investigated thoroughly.

 

[Gadawg73]

I saw the Republican that wrote the law on TV last night.
He says the law does not and was not intended to protect anyone that PURSUES someone unless that someone is law enforcement.
May or may not but I guarantee you the prosecution will CHALLENGE the law if the facts warrant it.
Just another example of the hysteria nonsense "they are not doing anything" mob mentality of a circus these preachers and out of town shake down artists do not want their followers to know about.

The politician who championed this bill - the one who said that - is simply trying to cover his ass for WRITING a bad law. If that was the intent of the law, then dammit, he had the responsibility to make sure that was what the law said!

Florida needs to send him packing.

When you have law enforcement and prosecutors opposing the laws offered you know then it was a bad law.
But the right wing fringe kooks loved it and it passed.
Same with anything anti environment, abortion anything, the gay boogeyman, anti drinking, pro Nascar and Jesus they offer it as legislation and it passes.

 

[PredFan]

Yes, unarmed teenagers are gunned down all the time with the police looking the other way.

Happens all the time.

The police are not looking the other way dumbass, they already looked into it and determined that there was no evidence to discount the shooter's story. It is only being re-looked at because of the outcry.

It deserves to be re-looked, this is NOT an open and shut case.

And you know this how?

 

[rightwinger]

It's an easily sensationalized story for the 24-hour news networks to pull in the usual crowd of people that can't get enough of other people's misery and get ratings. In short, it sells.

To politicize it is just par for the course in today's political discourse, but as you say, it's sickening.

This happened over three weeks ago. If not for the family "politicizing" it, the case would have been swept under the rug

And you know this HOW?? You know whether the investigators are sweeping it under the rug or doing their due diligence to make sure that if charges are brought against anyone, that they stick because there are not holes in the case because they rushed things??

And it is not the family politicizing and using this as a stage... it is everyone from politicians, extremist groups, vigilante groups, talk show hosts, media networks, etc that are politicizing this....

It is a shame that this grandstanding is taking away from a tragic death of someone young.... condolences should be going to the family so that they can get beyond this and heal in whatever way they can.... and that will not happen when you have grandstanding by talking heads and agenda driven assholes

I know this how the police took his story at face value
I know this how and armed civilian who just killed a kid was never brought in for questioning
I know this how Zimmerman was allowed to leave the scene with the murder weapon
I know this how the guy was never clearly established as part of a neighborhood watch or involved in a formal patrol at the time

If not for the family raising a stink......nothing would have been done. Given the delay, nothing will probably get done

 

[WillowTree]

i dont understand why this "story" is so goddamn important. people die all the time...shit happens. this is not special.

Yes, unarmed teenagers are gunned down all the time with the police looking the other way.

Happens all the time.

ya know 49 people were shot in Chicago in one day last week don't ya? This kids death is a terrible tradgedy, I'm sure if you are patient you will get justice. Judge jury and trial..

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Could you quote the part of the statute that you believe specifically says what Zimmerman did is not protected, please?

I've looked at the statute many times looking for something, and I don't find it.

Thanks.

First I'll quote the authors of the law itself Stand Your Ground authors: Trayvon Martin’s shooter should likely be charged, avoid immunity - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

“They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.”

Peaden and Baxley, R-Ocala, say their law is a self-defense act. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat from an attacker and can meet “force with force.” Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another.

The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

“The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

Peaden and Baxley said they didn’t know all the facts of the case, so their interpretations of what happened could change if new information arises during the investigation.

The place I read the statute two days ago is now no longer online http://election.dos.state.fl.us/laws/05laws/ch_2005-027.pdf i will find it elsewhere for you asap

Here is the statute: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

That is what is currently on the books.

So, if you could, I would also like to find something in that law that disallows what happened, but I can't.

http://laws.flrules.org/files/Ch_2005-027.pdf there it is.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of
death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril
of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using
defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm
to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the
process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly
entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had
removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will
from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe
that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring
or had occurred.

Under part 1, zimmerman has no protection

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to
be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as
an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection
from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact
against that person; or

(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild,
or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of,
the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity
or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an
unlawful activity; or

(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement
officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a
dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties
and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable
law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that
the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

Section 2 does not allow for defensive force to have been used in this situation

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is
attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty
to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with
force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary
to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another
or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Section 3 does not apply to zimmerman either.

The law does not protect what he did at all.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Mother Jones has a good aticle on this, as well as clear audio for all of the 911 calls and links to transcripts.

Mother Jones has never had a "good" article.

MJ is a leftist rag.

 

[Si modo]

I saw the Republican that wrote the law on TV last night.
He says the law does not and was not intended to protect anyone that PURSUES someone unless that someone is law enforcement.
May or may not but I guarantee you the prosecution will CHALLENGE the law if the facts warrant it.
Just another example of the hysteria nonsense "they are not doing anything" mob mentality of a circus these preachers and out of town shake down artists do not want their followers to know about.

The politician who championed this bill - the one who said that - is simply trying to cover his ass for WRITING a bad law. If that was the intent of the law, then dammit, he had the responsibility to make sure that was what the law said!

Florida needs to send him packing.

When you have law enforcement and prosecutors opposing the laws offered you know then it was a bad law.
But the right wing fringe kooks loved it and it passed.
Same with anything anti environment, abortion anything, the gay boogeyman, anti drinking, pro Nascar and Jesus they offer it as legislation and it passes.

Personally, I don't care on which end of the political spectrum he is. He wrote a bad law. Writing law is his job, and he is incompetent at it, regardless of the letter after his name.

This is EXACTLY why local elections are so important. Lives depend on what the dumbfucks do.

 

[LockeJaw]

The way people are politicizing this tragedy that never shouldve happened is sickening. With the evidence we as those on the outside looking in should, to any reasonable person, show you Zimmerman should at the very least be charged and put on trial.

I'm a reasonable person, as opposed to those who are reacting out of emotion only. What evidence do you see out there that contradicts his story that it was self-defense?

You've got Al Sharptongue out there leeching off the situation and a bunch of assholes trying to link this to the Stand Your Ground law in FL and bringing up the banning of guns.

You mean Al "Race Pimp and Media Whore" Sharpton? I agree.



Yes he did go after the guy, but that isn't a crime.



I don't know about you butI don't live in a country where one can be put in jail before and until the authorities can determine if a crime has been committed.

But these marching idiots making it a racial issue are nothing more than agitators. I can understand Trayvon's family, friends, neighbors protesting. But alot these people making speeches and marching and commenting on the news who don't know him are just out to promote their causes, they didn't know this young man, nor do they genuinely care about his death in general, and it shows when they turn it into a race issue.

Agreed.

I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Murder is murder, the reasoning for the murder should only count if it proves intent. As far as sentencing it should have no bearing. No life is worth more than another. So let's knock off the bullshit and just let what happens happen. If Zimmerman faces trial, as I believe he should, it shouldnt be because of marches, tv comments, and peoples feelings.

It should be because of the evidence.

Agreed, and he should not ecven be arrested until there is evidence.

People are arrested all the time without concrete evidence, even denied bail while awaiting trial. What evidence do I see Zimmerman may not(note the may not) have a case for claiming self defense? The fact he started the confrontation and pulled a gun, if Trayvon did fight with him it was most likely because he was trying to defend himself from a big guy with a gun. Zimmerman had over 100 lbs on the kid. Now unless the kids a damn ninja, I see no way he could be seen as a physical threat to him. The 9-11 tape where it's clear it's a young kids voice screaming for help. That wasn't Zimmerman. We've heard his chat with the 9-11 operator, and it's also clear as day, regardless what the news is saying, that Zimmerman called him a "fucking coon". Thats enough evidence for most prosecutors.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I saw the Republican that wrote the law on TV last night.
He says the law does not and was not intended to protect anyone that PURSUES someone unless that someone is law enforcement.
May or may not but I guarantee you the prosecution will CHALLENGE the law if the facts warrant it.
Just another example of the hysteria nonsense "they are not doing anything" mob mentality of a circus these preachers and out of town shake down artists do not want their followers to know about.

The politician who championed this bill - the one who said that - is simply trying to cover his ass for WRITING a bad law. If that was the intent of the law, then dammit, he had the responsibility to make sure that was what the law said!

Florida needs to send him packing.

When you have law enforcement and prosecutors opposing the laws offered you know then it was a bad law.
But the right wing fringe kooks loved it and it passed.
Same with anything anti environment, abortion anything, the gay boogeyman, anti drinking, pro Nascar and Jesus they offer it as legislation and it passes.

Its not a bad law, people's interpretations are wrong.

The authors of said law say so and, once this goes through court, the judges explaination of their decision will show how people have misinterpreted it when they find zimmerman guilty of a crime

 

[DiamondDave]

This happened over three weeks ago. If not for the family "politicizing" it, the case would have been swept under the rug

And you know this HOW?? You know whether the investigators are sweeping it under the rug or doing their due diligence to make sure that if charges are brought against anyone, that they stick because there are not holes in the case because they rushed things??

And it is not the family politicizing and using this as a stage... it is everyone from politicians, extremist groups, vigilante groups, talk show hosts, media networks, etc that are politicizing this....

It is a shame that this grandstanding is taking away from a tragic death of someone young.... condolences should be going to the family so that they can get beyond this and heal in whatever way they can.... and that will not happen when you have grandstanding by talking heads and agenda driven assholes

I know this how the police took his story at face value
I know this how and armed civilian who just killed a kid was never brought in for questioning
I know this how Zimmerman was allowed to leave the scene with the murder weapon
I know this how the guy was never clearly established as part of a neighborhood watch or involved in a formal patrol at the time

If not for the family raising a stink......nothing would have been done. Given the delay, nothing will probably get done

No... YOU ASSUME this because it fits your agenda...


The FACT is that you do not have inside information into the status or progress of the investigation... for if you did, the investigators would be leaking to to you and any subsequent possible charges would be thrown out in a mistrial'

You are one pompous ignorant motherfucker

 

[The T]

Liberals are the ones playing politics and race baiting, with Obama now the official ring leader. And Al Sharpton is a disgrace. MSNBC must be proud.

Both sides have people using this incident as a soapbox for something.

Politically this was a non story prior to sharpton and the usual cast of characters injected politics into it. And now Obama has stirred up a political firestorm with his comments. Naturally the right isn't going to sit by while their integrity is being besmerched on national tv hourly.

This is 100% instigated by the left.

Yep. The FEDS need to stay the Hell out of it and let the State handle it.

More grandstanding by the usual suspects.

 

[Uncensored2008]

But he isn't blaming the victim.

Most probably agree that the law sucks, but it IS the law. As you can see above, the cops could not legally arrest Zimmerman.

Everyone is equal under the law, no matter how much we don't like the person or the law. And, we apply the CURRENT law to everyone.

We change the law as fast as we can, and that is not done in the courts.

Barb doesn't care about the law.

She want's to lynch Zimmerman.

 

[PredFan]

I agree with pretty much everything you say. I think, if I were a local resident, I would want an investigation into the actions of the local police. Most certainly, an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death of Martin is warranted. If there is evidence of wrong doing, Zimmerman should face the consequences of those actions.

Like you, I think that the likes of Sharpton are - yet again - using this tragedy for political mileage and deliberately causing unrest and tensions between racial groups. That is truly disgusting.

I am a local resident. I live 5 miles from Sanford. I have been hearing about this story for almost all of the time since it happened. We do not know the whole story, we do not know what happened. The way the law works is that the shooter has claimed that it was self-defense and gave his story to prove it. It doesn't matter if the police believe his story or not, if they have no proof that it happened any other way than the way he said it did, then they cannot arrest him. It shouldn't matter if Al Sharpton comes down here and rants his racist rhetoric all day long. The law is the law, due process is due process, and this is still America and we still have a 5th Amendment.

I don't disagree. I have not formed an opinion of guilt or innocence - and I have, in the main, avoided any media coverage... the media are notorious for filling in missing facts by making up their own theories. Never a good way to form an opinion.

I've supported due process from the beginning of this... and I will continue to do so. I don't want the police to be railroaded to charge Zimmerman unless there is evidence of wrong doing. Justice is not served by sending an innocent person to jail to calm the race baiters.... nor is it served if a guilty man goes free because the police did not do their job right.

This is not a cut and dried case, it is not a done deal.... but a kid is dead and his family have the right to expect - and demand - that it is investigated thoroughly.

Understood and I agree with the exception of whether it's cut and dried or not. I could very well be a cut and dried case. We just don't know. As of this very minute, Zimmerman has not been arrested and charged. I would think that if they actually had any kind of case against him, he would be in custody. The Sanford Police are no longer in charge but the FBI, and a new prosecutor have still not had him arrested. The only thing we can rule out at this point is that it is a cut and dried case of murder.

 

[Peach]

This happened over three weeks ago. If not for the family "politicizing" it, the case would have been swept under the rug

And you know this HOW?? You know whether the investigators are sweeping it under the rug or doing their due diligence to make sure that if charges are brought against anyone, that they stick because there are not holes in the case because they rushed things??

And it is not the family politicizing and using this as a stage... it is everyone from politicians, extremist groups, vigilante groups, talk show hosts, media networks, etc that are politicizing this....

It is a shame that this grandstanding is taking away from a tragic death of someone young.... condolences should be going to the family so that they can get beyond this and heal in whatever way they can.... and that will not happen when you have grandstanding by talking heads and agenda driven assholes

I know this how the police took his story at face value
I know this how and armed civilian who just killed a kid was never brought in for questioning
I know this how Zimmerman was allowed to leave the scene with the murder weapon
I know this how the guy was never clearly established as part of a neighborhood watch or involved in a formal patrol at the time

If not for the family raising a stink......nothing would have been done. Given the delay, nothing will probably get done

Again, I agree with Murked. Stale evidence, too many talking heads.

 

[High_Gravity]

The police are not looking the other way dumbass, they already looked into it and determined that there was no evidence to discount the shooter's story. It is only being re-looked at because of the outcry.

It deserves to be re-looked, this is NOT an open and shut case.

And you know this how?

Because I am God.