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You call it social engineering. I call it social and cultural evolution. People like you are fearful of change and progress and that is pathetic. You just can't get your thick head around the fact that we are evolving into a more secular and rational society. There is no organized plot to undermine " traditional biblical ideas" People just don't believe that nonsense any moreThere’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t just trying to defend the rights of LGBTQ. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.
That is your interpretation of what is happening. If any one " looked for a fight" it is because they felt wronged and they had every right to pick a fight. Do you honestly think that the "new Jim Crow" laws- "bathroom bills" and limitations on adoption were random? Maybe, jut maybe they are a calculated assault on gays for having won the right to marry. There is something seriously wrong wit the way that you think about this stuffDo you honestly think that these things always happen randomly and innocently? No, certain powers behind the scenes sometimes go out of their way to look for a fight, in order to create a court case to push their political/social agenda. The same thing happened with abortion. "Jane Roe", (Norma McCorvey, the woman behind Roe v. Wade) was used in order to push a particular agenda. She didn’t realize it at the time, but many years later she did.
I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. This is not simply about gay citizens…In many cases, they are being used as pawns. There are powers behind the scenes who are pushing a political agenda, and that agenda is subversive and anti-Christian. So of course they're going to target Christians. And there's actually even more to it than that, but I'm not going to get into all that because you wouldn't believe it or understand it. But just because you don't believe this, or you think it's crazy doesn't make it untrue. You'll see, someday. Mark my words.
Really? Many "homosexuals"? Who are they? where are they? Most gay people do dot give a fuck what the biblical bigots think as long as they leave the alone and do not pursue their bigoted agenda to take back their hard fought for rights. You people are entitled to believe in your fairy god father in the sky and gays have the right to be who they are and live accordingly. Again, as I have said many times before, to position the argument as the "gays vs Christians" is dishonest, irresponsible and just fucking stupid,People are individuals and imo everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis. That said, I have seen many homosexuals who clearly have a hatred for the biblical worldview, and hate the fact that there are people who think homosexuality is sinful or unnatural.
You call it social engineering. I call it social and cultural evolution. People like you are fearful of change and progress and that is pathetic. You just can't get your thick head around the fact that we are evolving into a more secular and rational society. There is no organized plot to undermine " traditional biblical ideas" People just don't believe that nonsense any moreThere’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t just trying to defend the rights of LGBTQ. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.
... then gays should be allowed to discriminate against Christians.
Agree or Disagree?
NEVER belong to an HMO. When your insurer is also your doctor, you become a bottom line as you age. They will kill you. Kaiser killed my father. Odd you would bring that up on father's day. Rest in peace Dad. The way they made you die was beyond torture. You would've been luckier at Gitmo.A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...
Death panels are real. My best friend is on one.NEVER belong to an HMO. When your insurer is also your doctor, you become a bottom line as you age. They will kill you. Kaiser killed my father. Odd you would bring that up on father's day. Rest in peace Dad. The way they made you die was beyond torture. You would've been luckier at Gitmo.A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...
That's so contorted. No one who was involved in writing any law against sex discrimination meant that or even thought of it. You're parsing the words and making up a new meaning that was never intended. Sex discrimination means you're discriminating against a sex. He isn't. That ridiculous logic is exactly how the courts have fucked up justice in our legal system
I totally agree on two things. It's purely an academic discussion that Pops injected into the thread because Mr. Phillips case did not hinge on sex discrimination. You should be chastising him for injecting an unrelated issue. Secondly, the courts apply the law. The law in question specifically says "groups" in it's text. The ridiculous thing is that the law should be repealed and rights of property and association restored to private business entities. If so, then the whole treating religious views as special rights exempting business owners from generally applicable Public Accommodation laws goes away because any owner can refuse service for any reason.
Worldy, Pop is right here. Just give it up..If the law has the word “groups” in it, the prosecution is OBLIGATED to prove he has a “Bias against a GROUP”
Again, what “group” of a protected class is that BIAS practiced against when his policy is APPLIED EQUALLY.
Pop- now that Silhouette agrees with you- aren't you now questioning your stance?
No, Sils arguments make complete sense
Death panels are real. My best friend is on one.NEVER belong to an HMO. When your insurer is also your doctor, you become a bottom line as you age. They will kill you. Kaiser killed my father. Odd you would bring that up on father's day. Rest in peace Dad. The way they made you die was beyond torture. You would've been luckier at Gitmo.A baker is no more obligated to "bake the cake Christian" than I am to buy an over-priced coffee from Starbucks, or health care from Kaiser.... Oh, wait...
Typical and well worn made up bigoted bovine excrement and the nasty gay people against the oh so virtuous Christians. Get the fuck over it. You have no fucking idea what those gay people care about. Poor little innocent victim!!Let's be honest: This has nothing to do with "discrimination." This is about gays using legalized gay marriage to harass and persecute Christian vendors. These gay couples don't really care if this or that Christian vendor declined to bake a cake for them, or to photograph their "wedding," or to set up flowers at their "wedding." They don't care about that. They quickly and easily made other arrangements. They saw an opportunity, and in some cases sought an opportunity, to harass and persecute Christian vendors. That's what this is really all about, and deep down we all know it.
People are individuals and imo everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis. That said, I have seen many homosexuals who clearly have a hatred for the biblical worldview, and hate the fact that there are people who think homosexuality is sinful or unnatural.
There’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t simply trying to defend the rights of the LGBTQ community. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.
Do you honestly think that these things always happen randomly and innocently? No, certain powers behind the scenes sometimes go out of their way to look for a fight, in order to create a court case to push their political/social agenda. The same thing happened with abortion. "Jane Roe", (Norma McCorvey, the woman behind Roe v. Wade) was used in order to push a particular agenda. She didn’t realize it at the time, but now she does.
I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. This is not simply about gay citizens…In many cases, they are being used as pawns. There are powers behind the scenes who are pushing a political agenda, and that agenda is subversive and anti-Christian. So of course they're going to target Christians. And there's actually even more to it than that, but I'm not going to get into all that because you wouldn't believe it or understand it. But just because you don't believe this, or you think it's crazy doesn't make it untrue. You'll see, someday. Mark my words.
The only way they believe they can be accepted is to be put on the same level as this other protected status that is not something you are born as.
They are not trying to lift themselves to that level, but bring religious belief down to theirs.
It’s already showing signs of failure
Not as if gays are going around trying to pass laws making it illegal for people of faith to be hired as teachers. Oh right that is what people of faith did to gays- real persecution.
Well maybe school administrators have been to gay "pride" parades .
So, when it comes to things like this, I think one needs to look at all the arguments, weigh the evidence… and decide which one makes more sense and is more logical. I’ve put a lot of thought into this, and the view that morality is subjective results in lots of contradictions and absuThis post was from a few pages back, but I wanted to get back to it.rdities. I firmly believe that morality is objective..
Well that is your subjective opinion.
An objective truth is something that can be measured and can be proven- at least that is what I understand an objective truth to be.
2+2 = 4.
The sunrise on Earth will be to the east.
A subjective truth is what cannot be measured- and cannot be agreed upon by everyone.
Certainly you and I think that slavery is wrong. But for much of human history- many societies did not.
Our societies morals- changed- improved- so that we came to see slavery as morally wrong.
And then our laws changed to reflect that.
Just as some societies found some kinds of homosexuality morally wrong- and even killed homosexuals because of it.
I can see that you have some desire for a discussion of moral absolutes- but I am not much of an absolutist.
I know what I consider to be wrong- and I know why we have laws preventing much of what I consider to be wrong- while we also have laws I don't agree with- and also allow things I consider to be morally wrong.
But that is all subjective- which is why we as Americans disagree with many of these things/
Typical and well worn made up bigoted bovine excrement and the nasty gay people against the oh so virtuous Christians. Get the fuck over it. You have no fucking idea what those gay people care about. Poor little innocent victim!!Let's be honest: This has nothing to do with "discrimination." This is about gays using legalized gay marriage to harass and persecute Christian vendors. These gay couples don't really care if this or that Christian vendor declined to bake a cake for them, or to photograph their "wedding," or to set up flowers at their "wedding." They don't care about that. They quickly and easily made other arrangements. They saw an opportunity, and in some cases sought an opportunity, to harass and persecute Christian vendors. That's what this is really all about, and deep down we all know it.
People are individuals and imo everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis. That said, I have seen many homosexuals who clearly have a hatred for the biblical worldview, and hate the fact that there are people who think homosexuality is sinful or unnatural.
There’s much more to this than you seem to realize. It’s a battle, a cultural battle. And there are certain people behind the scenes who aren’t simply trying to defend the rights of the LGBTQ community. It’s so much more than that. Social engineering is going on, a strategic and intentional agenda to change public opinion on numerous things, to destroy traditional/biblical ideas, and to try to normalize things that many many people will never accept as normal.
Do you honestly think that these things always happen randomly and innocently? No, certain powers behind the scenes sometimes go out of their way to look for a fight, in order to create a court case to push their political/social agenda. The same thing happened with abortion. "Jane Roe", (Norma McCorvey, the woman behind Roe v. Wade) was used in order to push a particular agenda. She didn’t realize it at the time, but now she does.
I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. This is not simply about gay citizens…In many cases, they are being used as pawns. There are powers behind the scenes who are pushing a political agenda, and that agenda is subversive and anti-Christian. So of course they're going to target Christians. And there's actually even more to it than that, but I'm not going to get into all that because you wouldn't believe it or understand it. But just because you don't believe this, or you think it's crazy doesn't make it untrue. You'll see, someday. Mark my words.
The only way they believe they can be accepted is to be put on the same level as this other protected status that is not something you are born as.
They are not trying to lift themselves to that level, but bring religious belief down to theirs.
It’s already showing signs of failure
Well lets see what the protected status's are in Colorado- shall we?
Protected classes for places of public accommodation are: Race, Color, Disability, Sex, Sexual Orientation (including transgender status), National Origin/Ancestry, Creed, Marital Status and Retaliation
All of those protected classes- all using the law to demand that they be accepted......
No silly WW. He doesn’t offer that product.
No silly WW. He doesn’t offer that product.
You should tell that to Mr. Phillips who freely admits that he makes/made wedding cakes.
Ya, go with the logic that black (race of customer) wedding cakes, interracial wedding cakes, white (race of customer) wedding cakes, Jewish wedding cakes, Mexican wedding cakes, etc. - are different products. You'd be laughed out of court.
.>>>>
Leftists think the law should be applied differently to them.No silly WW. He doesn’t offer that product.
You should tell that to Mr. Phillips who freely admits that he makes/made wedding cakes.
Ya, go with the logic that black (race of customer) wedding cakes, interracial wedding cakes, white (race of customer) wedding cakes, Jewish wedding cakes, Mexican wedding cakes, etc. - are different products. You'd be laughed out of court.
.>>>>
He only makes those that were available to the public prior to the change in the law and he makes those regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity. He does not make this new product for anyone, regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity.
And you've avoided the question as to the songwriter, that has written unique wedding songs for opposite sex couples, that would refuse to write a song about a same sex marriage on the basis that he can't write songs about things or events that he can't personally relate to.
Many of these songwriters would fall under the PA law. Is he violating the law, or is he protected by the First Amendment?
He only makes those that were available to the public prior to the change in the law and he makes those regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity. He does not make this new product for anyone, regardless of sex, sexuality, race or ethnicity.
And you've avoided the question as to the songwriter, that has written unique wedding songs for opposite sex couples, that would refuse to write a song about a same sex marriage on the basis that he can't write songs about things or events that he can't personally relate to.
Many of these songwriters would fall under the PA law. Is he violating the law, or is he protected by the First Amendment?
Leftists think the law should be applied differently to them.
