If guns were banned in the U.K....how do criminals manage to keep shooting people?

[2aguy]

Britain is the most surveilled country in the world......and they are currently on hightened alert because of the terrorist attacks this last month...and you still have criminals with guns killing people with guns...in public, on an island nation that banned guns in 1996...

Young man dies after being shot in head by motorbike gunman

A young man has died after he was blasted in the head by a gun-toting killer on a motorbike in south London, police say.

Detectives think the 24-year-old was sitting in the passenger seat of a Volkswagen car which was being driven down Wellesley Road in Croydon when the attack happened.

A motorcyclist with a pillion passenger pulled up alongside the car and shots were fired at the vehicle.

The car driver, who suffered minor injuries, took his stricken friend to hospital.

He died on arrival after suffering a gunshot wound to the head, police say.

 

[JakeStarkey]

If guns were banned in the U.K....how do criminals manage to keep shooting people?

. . . in such fewer numbers at a much lesser rate?

 

[bodecea]

If guns were banned in the U.K....how do criminals manage to keep shooting people?

. . . in such fewer numbers at a much lesser rate?

No...that would be impossible.

 

[Nia88]

Britain is the most surveilled country in the world......and they are currently on hightened alert because of the terrorist attacks this last month...and you still have criminals with guns killing people with guns...in public, on an island nation that banned guns in 1996...

Young man dies after being shot in head by motorbike gunman

A young man has died after he was blasted in the head by a gun-toting killer on a motorbike in south London, police say.

Detectives think the 24-year-old was sitting in the passenger seat of a Volkswagen car which was being driven down Wellesley Road in Croydon when the attack happened.

A motorcyclist with a pillion passenger pulled up alongside the car and shots were fired at the vehicle.

The car driver, who suffered minor injuries, took his stricken friend to hospital.

He died on arrival after suffering a gunshot wound to the head, police say.

Gun violence is extremely low in the UK. Guns can never be banned 100%. But banning them does lessen the amount of guns in people's hands and gun violence.

 

[2aguy]

Britain is the most surveilled country in the world......and they are currently on hightened alert because of the terrorist attacks this last month...and you still have criminals with guns killing people with guns...in public, on an island nation that banned guns in 1996...

Young man dies after being shot in head by motorbike gunman

A young man has died after he was blasted in the head by a gun-toting killer on a motorbike in south London, police say.

Detectives think the 24-year-old was sitting in the passenger seat of a Volkswagen car which was being driven down Wellesley Road in Croydon when the attack happened.

A motorcyclist with a pillion passenger pulled up alongside the car and shots were fired at the vehicle.

The car driver, who suffered minor injuries, took his stricken friend to hospital.

He died on arrival after suffering a gunshot wound to the head, police say.

Gun violence is extremely low in the UK. Guns can never be banned 100%. But banning them does lessen the amount of guns in people's hands and gun violence.

Actually, you are wrong. Gun murder in the U.K. did not go down after they banned guns......it went up immediately after the ban...a lot, then returned to the same level as after the ban.....for you to be right, the level would have to have gone down after they disarmed the British people....and it didn't. This shows that taking guns away from law abiding people does not lower the gun murder rate. Also...the gun crime rate, crime without murder attacked....went up, and hasn't gone down.....and the violent crime rate has also continued to go up...again, showing you are wrong.


Gun crime in London increases by 42% - BBC News

Gun crime offences in London surged by 42% in the last year, according to official statistics.
The Met Police's figures showed there were 2,544 gun crime offences from April 2016 to April 2017 compared to 1,793 offences from 2015 until 2016.
Knife crime also increased by 24% with 12,074 recorded offences from 2016 to 2017.
============

Gun and knife crime soaring in London, official figures show

More worryingly, there was also a rise in the number of guns being fired on London’s streets, up from 239 cases in 2015/16 to 306 cases in the last financial year.

There was also a 20 per cent increase in the rate of knife attacks involving injuries to victims, up from 3,663 to 4,415 in 2016/17.

------

“We are concerned about the rise of gun crime and rise of knife crime offences committed by young people and the changing nature of the offenders. “

He said there was evidence that more young people are carrying knives for a variety of reasons including status, criminality and self-protection but said only around a quarter are affiliated with gangs.

He said police were focusing on reducing stabbings by taking weapons and dangerous offenders off the streets and trying to prevent and divert people from crime.
------

“With double-digit growth in gun and knife crime - and a youth homicide almost every fortnight - the crime challenge for London is real and serious and has serious impacts for London’s most disadvantaged communities.”
He added: “With 600 victims of serious youth violence each month, the Met needs a new plan to tackle the violence on our capital’s streets if they are to help impoverished communities.
==========

Violent crime on the rise in every corner of the country, figures suggest

But analysis of the figures force by force, showed the full extent of the problem, with only one constabulary, Nottinghamshire, recording a reduction in violent offences.

The vast majority of police forces actually witnessed double digit rises in violent crime, with Northumbria posting a 95 per cent increase year on year.

Of the other forces, Durham Police recorded a 73 per cent rise; West Yorkshire was up 48 per cent; Avon and Somerset 45 per cent; Dorset 39 per cent and Warwickshire 37 per cent.

Elsewhere Humberside, South Yorkshire, Staffordshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, Wiltshire and Dyfed Powys all saw violence rise by more than a quarter year on year.

So....you are wrong on this point...you are also wrong about taking guns away from law abiding people lessening the amount of crime.....that didn't happen in the United States...in fact, the exact opposite happened...

I will post that separately...

 

[JakeStarkey]

None of that makes sense, guy, if the murder rate remains so much lower than the US per capita.

Your posts make no sense.

 

[2aguy]

Britain is the most surveilled country in the world......and they are currently on hightened alert because of the terrorist attacks this last month...and you still have criminals with guns killing people with guns...in public, on an island nation that banned guns in 1996...

Young man dies after being shot in head by motorbike gunman

A young man has died after he was blasted in the head by a gun-toting killer on a motorbike in south London, police say.

Detectives think the 24-year-old was sitting in the passenger seat of a Volkswagen car which was being driven down Wellesley Road in Croydon when the attack happened.

A motorcyclist with a pillion passenger pulled up alongside the car and shots were fired at the vehicle.

The car driver, who suffered minor injuries, took his stricken friend to hospital.

He died on arrival after suffering a gunshot wound to the head, police say.

Gun violence is extremely low in the UK. Guns can never be banned 100%. But banning them does lessen the amount of guns in people's hands and gun violence.

But banning them does lessen the amount of guns in people's hands and gun violence

You are also wrong on this from the American Experience...not just from the British experience.....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400 million guns in private hands and over 15.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

So....there is nothing in your post that is accurate, true or based in real world experience.....

 

[JakeStarkey]

The decrease in overall criminal violence with guns was due to social and economic improvement.

You can show no connection between increase of guns and decrease of gun violence.

For instance, the 2.1 million incidents of positive gun use often used by the creepy gun right were in fact by LEO and not private citizens.

All of your studies have been easily debunked.

 

[2aguy]

None of that makes sense, guy, if the murder rate remains so much lower than the US per capita.

Your posts make no sense.

No....it makes complete sense. The culture of the British criminal doesn't include actual murder of their victims. They use guns to rob, rape and commit other crimes....and most of the time when they shoot, they shoot to wound, not kill....I posted about an armed robbery.....the British criminal shot the guard repeatedly in the leg.......

And the link I just posted shows that British criminals are getting guns when they want or need them......gun crime in the most surveilled city in the world, London, is up 42%.....on an island nation that banned guns...and it is up about 10% around the rest of the country.....

Our criminals murder each other more often.........notice...there were 9,616 gun murder in the U.S. in 2015...and as research shows the super majority of the victims....70-80% are criminals engaged in the criminal lifestyle...and of the rest of the victims many of them are friends and family of criminals who get caught in the crossfire.....

Our criminals kill each other easily and often, and do so for reasons as petty as facebook insults...the British criminals don't commit murder.....they do use guns for crimes and they shoot to wound.....

But as this thread shows....that is now changing...

 

[JakeStarkey]

So it's cultural? So the decrease in American violence between 1993 and 2015 is due to cultural phenomena and not to increase in guns. OK.

 

[2aguy]

The decrease in overall criminal violence with guns was due to social and economic improvement.

You can show no connection between increase of guns and decrease of gun violence.

For instance, the 2.1 million incidents of positive gun use often used by the creepy gun right were in fact by LEO and not private citizens.

All of your studies have been easily debunked.

And again, nothing in your post is accurate.

There is a connection....a negative one for you guys......you anti gunners keep telling us that more guns = more crime...Britain shows that this is not the case, since they banned guns and their gun crime rate went up, not down.....and the United States increased gun ownership...and carrying guns....and all categories of gun crime and violence went down dramatically.......

And the gun studies do not include military and police use of guns.......you of course know that...but you can't admit to that because you need to attack the actual research...


Notice all of the studies below...including the bill clinton Department of Justice study on defensive gun use...no police or military defensive gun use were used and obama's CDC......they studied all the gun research as of 2013.....

I listed the studies that listed the fact that the police and military were not included...even you can see that....

Self defense with a gun......40 years of actual research...first is the name of the group that conducted the research, then the year, then the number of defensive gun uses and finally wether the research contained police or military defensive gun uses....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[2aguy]

So it's cultural? So the decrease in American violence between 1993 and 2015 is due to cultural phenomena and not to increase in guns. OK.

No....Americans can and do own guns and do not commit murder with them....American criminals...who cannot buy, own or carry guns, or carry guns and yet still use them for crime and murder.....

More law abiding gun owners buy and carry guns...and our gun violence rate went down.....

And.....I have 18 separate studies that show this.....the majority of the studies say that law abiding gun owners do reduce crime, less than half show they had no effect....one showed they increased crime...


The research and the actual reality of gun ownership doesn't support anything you feel about guns...

Here are the actual papers on it...

Do Right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime? - Crime Prevention Research Center

And here is how those papers break down on wether or not guns in the hands of law abiding gun owners lower the crime rate....

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...-Maryland-Law-Review-Lott-Concealed-Carry.pdf

Lott...list of papers...







A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)

The Concealed‐Handgun Debate, John R. Lott, Jr., Journal of Legal Studies, January 1998

Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998

The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003

Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198

Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns

More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr.

“More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014

“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..

“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009

“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013

“On the Choice of Control Variables in the Crime Equation” by Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Oxford Bulletin of Economics and Statistics, Volume 72, Issue 5, pages 696–715, October 2010.

More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr.

Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr.

 

[JakeStarkey]

But none of those studies link the increase of guns to decrease of violence is the point.

 

[2aguy]

So it's cultural? So the decrease in American violence between 1993 and 2015 is due to cultural phenomena and not to increase in guns. OK.

Guns in the hands of law abiding people makes the risk of person to person crime higher...that is why you have more break in crimes in the U.K. when people are actually home.....and a lot less in the U.S. because criminals are afraid to get shot by homeowners....

 

[2aguy]

But none of those studies link the increase of guns to decrease of violence is the point.

I just listed the ones that do......Here it is again....

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...-Maryland-Law-Review-Lott-Concealed-Carry.pdf

Lott...list of papers...

 

[JakeStarkey]

So it's cultural? So the decrease in American violence between 1993 and 2015 is due to cultural phenomena and not to increase in guns. OK.

Guns in the hands of law abiding people makes the risk of person to person crime higher...that is why you have more break in crimes in the U.K. when people are actually home.....and a lot less in the U.S. because criminals are afraid to get shot by homeowners....

That is your opinion and nothing more.

 

[JoeMoma]

Do people that keep harping about "gun" violence not care about gunless violence. It's much easier to rape a petite woman who is gunless than it is to rape a petite woman that has an equalizer and knows how to use it.

An armed society is a polite society.

 

[2aguy]

But none of those studies link the increase of guns to decrease of violence is the point.

And the primary, the sacred premise of you anti gunners is proven wrong..by both the British and American examples...as well as Australia....your cause of action is that you feel, More Guns = More Crime......

And that is not true. It is not based in facts. It is not based in reality.

The entire reason for your movement is a lie.

 

[2aguy]

So it's cultural? So the decrease in American violence between 1993 and 2015 is due to cultural phenomena and not to increase in guns. OK.

Guns in the hands of law abiding people makes the risk of person to person crime higher...that is why you have more break in crimes in the U.K. when people are actually home.....and a lot less in the U.S. because criminals are afraid to get shot by homeowners....

That is your opinion and nothing more.

No...I showed you actual research.....what you say is based on feelings...not the facts that I linked to...

 

[2aguy]

But none of those studies link the increase of guns to decrease of violence is the point.

Yeah...they do...here is one....from the ones listed...

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Bartley-Cohen-Economic-Inquiry-1998.pdf


The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)


.....we find strong support for the hypothesis that the right-to-carry laws are associated with a decrease in the trend in violent crime rates.....