If Jefferson founded the Republican Party what place do Democrats have in America?

[regent]

By war time spending we mean of course tremendous amounts of money, not for tanks and weapons

you said war spending ended the Great Depression. I assumed they spent a lot on planes tanks and ships, and everything was rationed at home??

but internal improvements or whatever. Guess you didn't know that?

there were internal imporvements during WW2, not rationing???

See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow?? Is any other conclusion possible?

First, I said many posters have said war time spending ended the Great Depression. Second, I never mentioned rationing.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

First, I said many posters have said war time spending ended the Great Depression.

of course thats idiotic and liberal which is why no one called for it during this great recession

Second, I never mentioned rationing.

yes becuase you didn't know about it. Do you have any POV that hasn't been destroyed by now?

Why not tell us, liberal, how spending on planes or bridges ends depression or recessions?? What are you so afraid of? If you know liberalism is ignorance why be a liberal?

 

[Bfgrn]

Too stupid and liberal, of course!! You gave a list about "state" regulations, but could not name even one one federal corporate regulation!!

You wanted them to be federal regulations so badly that you just flat out lied about it. What does that tell us about you and liberalism?

You can try to spin it anyway you wish with your tiny little brain. Our founding fathers did not believe in the invisible hand. They believed in a firm hand by GOVERNMENT.

Demonstrate that belief by quoting the Constitution.

I just showed you how our founding fathers GOVERNED. Now YOU show me in the Constitution where there is any mention of a free market, an invisible hand or unregulated business?

The premise you are trying to prove is idiotic. Republican is a word. IT has no correlation to today's Republican party. The party Thomas Jefferson and James Madison founded was called The Democratic-Republican Party.

Today's Republican party is much more in line with Alexander Hamilton's vision of big business and corporations.

After the Constitution was adopted, Americans were presented with two different visions of the nation's economic future. One, championed by Thomas Jefferson, aimed to preserve an economy based on independent farmers producing agricultural products for market. In contrast, Alexander Hamilton envisioned a robust industrial American economy.

Without guidance from the Constitution, these two powerful, competing visions were locked in battle.

By 1830, it had begun to look like Hamilton's ideal of elite-controlled companies and banks fostering national growth and expansion, might win out. The rise of the corporation had important economic consequences, contributing to a shift in power and wealth away from workers and landowners and into the hands of bankers and capitalists.

The Corporations

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws our country".
Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, Nov. 12th, 1816.

 

[code1211]

we were only lifted out of the Depression by a massive increase in government spending."

****Here's what Henry Morgenthau, FDR's Secretary of the Treasury (the man who desperately needed the New Deal to succeed as much as Roosevelt) said about the New Deal stimulus: "We have tried spending money.We are spending more than we ever have spent before and it does not work... We have never made good on our promises...I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!"

"The New Republic"( at the time a FDR greatest supporter") noted. In June 1939, the federal public works programs still supported almost 19 million people, nearly 15% of the population" [page 313]

In fact in 1939, unemployment was at 17%, and there were 11 million additional in stimulus make work welfare jobs. Today when the population is 2.5 times greater we have only 8 million unemployed. Conclusion: legislation to make Democrats illegal
is urgently needed

As many posters have already noted the New Deal did not spend enough money, it took war time spending to end the Great Depression. Will any administration now fail to spend stimulus money in a depression/recession?

You and all Liberals are confused.

Ending a recession does require that money get spent, but that spending does not need to come from Government. In truth, if that spending can be incented to come from the private sector, that is better.

Our current Government is dominated by liberals like yourself who do not understand this. They are confounded by the fact that the business community is sitting on 3 Trillion dollars of cash that they are simply afraid to spend.

This administration following the philosophy that you a spouse has terrified the most optimistic group of people in the history of the planet, American Venture Capitalists, into pessimistic inaction.

A wise leader, something we do not have, would be working WITH the business community to free their capital to drive the economy rather than attacking them and threatening them in every speech, every day with every arm of the government and every tactic of Commerce and Justice.

They cripple the horse then whip it because it won't work.

 

[code1211]

People keep claiming that it was the spending of WWII that ended the depression, that seems like evidence that the government simply did not spend enough on Hoover's RFC or FDR's New Deal? In any case Hoover began the idea that the government has a responsiblity to be involved in recessions/depressions, and we seem to be following that Keynsian path to this day. Hoover started the government spending, FDR increased Hoover's spending but the evidence is that neither were enough it took a WWII type of spending to end the Great Depression. Would the depression have ended on its own, we may never know, but the bigger question would the American people have waited for it to end on its own?

What we know for a fact is that it did not.

Keynsian Economics provides that in good time the government collects a surplus that it can spend in the lean time. We are not practicing this.

We are witnessing political hacks draining the treasury to buy votes.

So you are saying that the problem is that we don't follow Keynes totally we only practice part of Keynes and we should be practicing the whole thing. So from now on instead of tax breaks for the wealthy we should pay back the borrowed money. Good idea.

No. What I'm saying is that, as always, Liberals have said one thing and done another.

Before you get hung up on Partisan hackery, the Republicans and the Democrats both do this.

A Liberal is what he does, not what he says.

 

[code1211]

You can try to spin it anyway you wish with your tiny little brain. Our founding fathers did not believe in the invisible hand. They believed in a firm hand by GOVERNMENT.

Demonstrate that belief by quoting the Constitution.

I just showed you how our founding fathers GOVERNED. Now YOU show me in the Constitution where there is any mention of a free market, an invisible hand or unregulated business?

The premise you are trying to prove is idiotic. Republican is a word. IT has no correlation to today's Republican party. The party Thomas Jefferson and James Madison founded was called The Democratic-Republican Party.

Today's Republican party is much more in line with Alexander Hamilton's vision of big business and corporations.

After the Constitution was adopted, Americans were presented with two different visions of the nation's economic future. One, championed by Thomas Jefferson, aimed to preserve an economy based on independent farmers producing agricultural products for market. In contrast, Alexander Hamilton envisioned a robust industrial American economy.

Without guidance from the Constitution, these two powerful, competing visions were locked in battle.

By 1830, it had begun to look like Hamilton's ideal of elite-controlled companies and banks fostering national growth and expansion, might win out. The rise of the corporation had important economic consequences, contributing to a shift in power and wealth away from workers and landowners and into the hands of bankers and capitalists.

The Corporations

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws our country".
Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, Nov. 12th, 1816.

I was pretty sure you could not demonstrate your assertion with the Constitution. Thank you for confirming my suspicion.

The beauty of this Republic is that it can adapt and can be adapted. The danger of this Republic is that it can be perverted. The existence of the huge corporations like the ones that Teddy fought was not imagined by the Founders.

The dream of Jefferson's philosophy and the mechanics of Hamilton's banking system is what provides the soul and the body of our country. Unique among nations is this combination of secular and mandated morality with a financial system that gives the bankroll to protect it and the pathway to participate in it.

The Declaration and the Constitution while steeped in Christianity stand independently separated from Christianity as our country's documents of faith. Even those who cannot quote the Declaration know what it means to individuals. Our faith in the Constitution is demonstrated by our core belief, held at the individual level, that anything unjust must be UnConstitutional.

Without Jefferson's dream, Hamilton's system is nothing more than a Treasury.

Without Hamilton's system, Jefferson's dream is faded parchment in a closet somewhere.

Without the combination of these two unique and powerful visions, we are living in a Mexico North, poverty stricken, shell of what we could have been and very likely sending tribute to Berlin, Tokyo or Moscow.

 

[Bfgrn]

Demonstrate that belief by quoting the Constitution.

I just showed you how our founding fathers GOVERNED. Now YOU show me in the Constitution where there is any mention of a free market, an invisible hand or unregulated business?

The premise you are trying to prove is idiotic. Republican is a word. IT has no correlation to today's Republican party. The party Thomas Jefferson and James Madison founded was called The Democratic-Republican Party.

Today's Republican party is much more in line with Alexander Hamilton's vision of big business and corporations.

After the Constitution was adopted, Americans were presented with two different visions of the nation's economic future. One, championed by Thomas Jefferson, aimed to preserve an economy based on independent farmers producing agricultural products for market. In contrast, Alexander Hamilton envisioned a robust industrial American economy.

Without guidance from the Constitution, these two powerful, competing visions were locked in battle.

By 1830, it had begun to look like Hamilton's ideal of elite-controlled companies and banks fostering national growth and expansion, might win out. The rise of the corporation had important economic consequences, contributing to a shift in power and wealth away from workers and landowners and into the hands of bankers and capitalists.

The Corporations

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws our country".
Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, Nov. 12th, 1816.

I was pretty sure you could not demonstrate your assertion with the Constitution. Thank you for confirming my suspicion.

The beauty of this Republic is that it can adapt and can be adapted. The danger of this Republic is that it can be perverted. The existence of the huge corporations like the ones that Teddy fought was not imagined by the Founders.

The dream of Jefferson's philosophy and the mechanics of Hamilton's banking system is what provides the soul and the body of our country. Unique among nations is this combination of secular and mandated morality with a financial system that gives the bankroll to protect it and the pathway to participate in it.

The Declaration and the Constitution while steeped in Christianity stand independently separated from Christianity as our country's documents of faith. Even those who cannot quote the Declaration know what it means to individuals. Our faith in the Constitution is demonstrated by our core belief, held at the individual level, that anything unjust must be UnConstitutional.

Without Jefferson's dream, Hamilton's system is nothing more than a Treasury.

Without Hamilton's system, Jefferson's dream is faded parchment in a closet somewhere.

Without the combination of these two unique and powerful visions, we are living in a Mexico North, poverty stricken, shell of what we could have been and very likely sending tribute to Berlin, Tokyo or Moscow.

I demonstrated my assertion with actual GOVERNANCE; laws and actions.

NOW...SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

You CAN'T! But right wing turds like you believe that YOUR premises are the default.

 

[Dragon]

Ending a recession does require that money get spent, but that spending does not need to come from Government. In truth, if that spending can be incented to come from the private sector, that is better.

Correct, but you follow this to an incorrect conclusion. The problem in a recession is not that capital isn't available, nor that it CAN'T be spent, but rather that it ISN'T being spent -- or rather, isn't being invested. In fact, that difference between spending and investment is the whole problem.

Why does someone invest in plant expansion, founding a new business, or similar activities that create jobs? Because they expect to see a return on that investment. Why do they have that expectation? Because there is unsatisfied demand (or they think there is) for the products or services to be offered on the market. Where does demand come from? It comes from people who have money -- not large concentrations of money (that's where investment capital comes from), but just plain old spending money. It comes from people with good jobs, earning good wages, or otherwise from people who have money to spend on things.

What happens in a recession? People lose their jobs. People have less money to spend. Demand drops, and so there is less incentive to invest in the production of goods and services, and for that reason investment drops, which leads to more layoffs, which makes things worse, and this cycle continues until something happens to turn it around.

Why has the Lesser Depression we are in today not been as bad as the Great Depression? Because the drop in demand was cushioned by wealth-transfer programs in place since the 1930s or 1960s, such as unemployment insurance. This put money into the hands of unemployed people, which they spent, which kept business failure from being as bad as in the 1930s crash.

After Roosevelt took office in 1933, the initial recession that started the Great Depression turned around and the economy went into growth mode. One reason for this was Roosevelt's willingness to spend on relief, more so than Hoover had been. The signature programs of the First New Deal, the NRA and AAA, were mostly a waste of effort (the TVA was an exception; that was well worth doing), but programs like the WPA and CCC, which provided work-relief to millions of unemployed people, did help -- some. Not enough to end the Depression, but enough to make things somewhat better.

How did World War II pull us out of the Depression? By doing what Roosevelt had already been doing, on the scale that he should have been doing it but wasn't. Between military service and working in war industries, we achieved full employment at good wages. Demand soared. (There wasn't a whole lot to spend the money on, thanks to wartime rationing, but everyone had plenty to eat and a home and clothes, which was a big improvement.) For several years, as we fought the war, this demand accumulated in the form of savings and War Bond investments.

As the war ended, some people worried that when the military was demobilized and the war contracts finished, the economy would slip back into depression, which shows that a lot of people back then didn't understand how demand works to drive investment. After the war, people had been working at good jobs with nothing much to spend the money on, and so pent-up demand was HUGE. Because of that, investors were quick and ready to put up the dough to re-tool our manufacturing plants to make cars and refrigerators instead of tanks and airplanes, and civilian clothing instead of uniforms. All of which required hiring people, so good jobs were quickly available for those discharged from the military or laid off from the defense plants.

Bottom line: the government is the entity that needs to invest to pull us out of a depression not because no one else CAN, but because no one else WILL. Demand is the driver, and lack of money in people's pockets equals lack of demand, and without demand there is no reason to invest.

 

[Polk]

we were only lifted out of the Depression by a massive increase in government spending."

****Here's what Henry Morgenthau, FDR's Secretary of the Treasury (the man who desperately needed the New Deal to succeed as much as Roosevelt) said about the New Deal stimulus: "We have tried spending money.We are spending more than we ever have spent before and it does not work... We have never made good on our promises...I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!"

"The New Republic"( at the time a FDR greatest supporter") noted. In June 1939, the federal public works programs still supported almost 19 million people, nearly 15% of the population" [page 313]

In fact in 1939, unemployment was at 17%, and there were 11 million additional in stimulus make work welfare jobs. Today when the population is 2.5 times greater we have only 8 million unemployed. Conclusion: legislation to make Democrats illegal
is urgently needed

Things were worse in 1939 than they were in 1936... after the austerity measures Morgenthau called for where put in place. Morgenthau wasn't a significant backer of the New Deal. He was one of the strongest critics inside the administration.

 

[code1211]

I just showed you how our founding fathers GOVERNED. Now YOU show me in the Constitution where there is any mention of a free market, an invisible hand or unregulated business?

The premise you are trying to prove is idiotic. Republican is a word. IT has no correlation to today's Republican party. The party Thomas Jefferson and James Madison founded was called The Democratic-Republican Party.

Today's Republican party is much more in line with Alexander Hamilton's vision of big business and corporations.

After the Constitution was adopted, Americans were presented with two different visions of the nation's economic future. One, championed by Thomas Jefferson, aimed to preserve an economy based on independent farmers producing agricultural products for market. In contrast, Alexander Hamilton envisioned a robust industrial American economy.

Without guidance from the Constitution, these two powerful, competing visions were locked in battle.

By 1830, it had begun to look like Hamilton's ideal of elite-controlled companies and banks fostering national growth and expansion, might win out. The rise of the corporation had important economic consequences, contributing to a shift in power and wealth away from workers and landowners and into the hands of bankers and capitalists.

The Corporations

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws our country".
Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, Nov. 12th, 1816.

I was pretty sure you could not demonstrate your assertion with the Constitution. Thank you for confirming my suspicion.

The beauty of this Republic is that it can adapt and can be adapted. The danger of this Republic is that it can be perverted. The existence of the huge corporations like the ones that Teddy fought was not imagined by the Founders.

The dream of Jefferson's philosophy and the mechanics of Hamilton's banking system is what provides the soul and the body of our country. Unique among nations is this combination of secular and mandated morality with a financial system that gives the bankroll to protect it and the pathway to participate in it.

The Declaration and the Constitution while steeped in Christianity stand independently separated from Christianity as our country's documents of faith. Even those who cannot quote the Declaration know what it means to individuals. Our faith in the Constitution is demonstrated by our core belief, held at the individual level, that anything unjust must be UnConstitutional.

Without Jefferson's dream, Hamilton's system is nothing more than a Treasury.

Without Hamilton's system, Jefferson's dream is faded parchment in a closet somewhere.

Without the combination of these two unique and powerful visions, we are living in a Mexico North, poverty stricken, shell of what we could have been and very likely sending tribute to Berlin, Tokyo or Moscow.

I demonstrated my assertion with actual GOVERNANCE; laws and actions.

NOW...SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

You CAN'T! But right wing turds like you believe that YOUR premises are the default.

Powers not granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the States or to the people.

Since this none of the things you mention are cited by the Constitution, they are reserved to the States or to the people.

You cannot support your assertion because your assertion is baseless.




Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

 

[Bfgrn]

I was pretty sure you could not demonstrate your assertion with the Constitution. Thank you for confirming my suspicion.

The beauty of this Republic is that it can adapt and can be adapted. The danger of this Republic is that it can be perverted. The existence of the huge corporations like the ones that Teddy fought was not imagined by the Founders.

The dream of Jefferson's philosophy and the mechanics of Hamilton's banking system is what provides the soul and the body of our country. Unique among nations is this combination of secular and mandated morality with a financial system that gives the bankroll to protect it and the pathway to participate in it.

The Declaration and the Constitution while steeped in Christianity stand independently separated from Christianity as our country's documents of faith. Even those who cannot quote the Declaration know what it means to individuals. Our faith in the Constitution is demonstrated by our core belief, held at the individual level, that anything unjust must be UnConstitutional.

Without Jefferson's dream, Hamilton's system is nothing more than a Treasury.

Without Hamilton's system, Jefferson's dream is faded parchment in a closet somewhere.

Without the combination of these two unique and powerful visions, we are living in a Mexico North, poverty stricken, shell of what we could have been and very likely sending tribute to Berlin, Tokyo or Moscow.

I demonstrated my assertion with actual GOVERNANCE; laws and actions.

NOW...SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

You CAN'T! But right wing turds like you believe that YOUR premises are the default.

Powers not granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the States or to the people.

Since this none of the things you mention are cited by the Constitution, they are reserved to the States or to the people.

You cannot support your assertion because your assertion is baseless.




Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

I will be waiting................

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

 

[code1211]

Ending a recession does require that money get spent, but that spending does not need to come from Government. In truth, if that spending can be incented to come from the private sector, that is better.

Correct, but you follow this to an incorrect conclusion. The problem in a recession is not that capital isn't available, nor that it CAN'T be spent, but rather that it ISN'T being spent -- or rather, isn't being invested. In fact, that difference between spending and investment is the whole problem.

Why does someone invest in plant expansion, founding a new business, or similar activities that create jobs? Because they expect to see a return on that investment. Why do they have that expectation? Because there is unsatisfied demand (or they think there is) for the products or services to be offered on the market. Where does demand come from? It comes from people who have money -- not large concentrations of money (that's where investment capital comes from), but just plain old spending money. It comes from people with good jobs, earning good wages, or otherwise from people who have money to spend on things.

What happens in a recession? People lose their jobs. People have less money to spend. Demand drops, and so there is less incentive to invest in the production of goods and services, and for that reason investment drops, which leads to more layoffs, which makes things worse, and this cycle continues until something happens to turn it around.

Why has the Lesser Depression we are in today not been as bad as the Great Depression? Because the drop in demand was cushioned by wealth-transfer programs in place since the 1930s or 1960s, such as unemployment insurance. This put money into the hands of unemployed people, which they spent, which kept business failure from being as bad as in the 1930s crash.

After Roosevelt took office in 1933, the initial recession that started the Great Depression turned around and the economy went into growth mode. One reason for this was Roosevelt's willingness to spend on relief, more so than Hoover had been. The signature programs of the First New Deal, the NRA and AAA, were mostly a waste of effort (the TVA was an exception; that was well worth doing), but programs like the WPA and CCC, which provided work-relief to millions of unemployed people, did help -- some. Not enough to end the Depression, but enough to make things somewhat better.

How did World War II pull us out of the Depression? By doing what Roosevelt had already been doing, on the scale that he should have been doing it but wasn't. Between military service and working in war industries, we achieved full employment at good wages. Demand soared. (There wasn't a whole lot to spend the money on, thanks to wartime rationing, but everyone had plenty to eat and a home and clothes, which was a big improvement.) For several years, as we fought the war, this demand accumulated in the form of savings and War Bond investments.

As the war ended, some people worried that when the military was demobilized and the war contracts finished, the economy would slip back into depression, which shows that a lot of people back then didn't understand how demand works to drive investment. After the war, people had been working at good jobs with nothing much to spend the money on, and so pent-up demand was HUGE. Because of that, investors were quick and ready to put up the dough to re-tool our manufacturing plants to make cars and refrigerators instead of tanks and airplanes, and civilian clothing instead of uniforms. All of which required hiring people, so good jobs were quickly available for those discharged from the military or laid off from the defense plants.

Bottom line: the government is the entity that needs to invest to pull us out of a depression not because no one else CAN, but because no one else WILL. Demand is the driver, and lack of money in people's pockets equals lack of demand, and without demand there is no reason to invest.

Let's hop into the time machine and go back to 2009 when the Big 0 and his cronies decided that they needed to save the UAW and public unions and that they would use 1 Trillion dollars of public funds to do this. They squandered the cash.

GM and Chrysler both went through Bankruptcy which is what the Big 0 claimed the money would prevent and the public unions went through all the cut backs a year later when the money in the states, counties and cities ran out.

What might have happened if the Big 0 and his cronies had decided to gin up the economy instead of buying favors from their political base? Here's how it could have worked:

The Big 0 announces his intention to help the economy and calls the American public to a unified effort to rebuild America and Re-start the economy. To help, he will invest 1 Trillion dollars in the effort. Here's how it will work: The US federal Government will match personal investments up to $20,000 per household to improve each dwelling with a tax credit of 20 cents on the dollar invested.

This tax credit could be used for a gallon of paint to refresh your apartment or to add wing on to your house or to remodel your kitchen.

The same Trillion that the Big 0 pissed away is spent except that it is spent in one year instead of 10. An additional 5 Trillion is spent during that first year also by the private sector to take advantage of the tax credit. The tax credit reduces taxes owed in the following year by, if you're playing at home you know the answer, by an additional Trillion dollars and this is spent by the public sector also.

So, instead of wasting the Trillion on the "shovel ready" jobs that weren't, there is 7 trillion spent on real live homes that use products from every part of the economy including tools, paint, vehicles, materials and labor. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the labor, the sale of goods and the movement of money through the economy would all create tax revenue and the folks that Obama was buying off would have had the cash to pay their own way and to provide the taxes that would have corrected the problems that the Big 0 only delayed.

That's what a recovery program should look like. What Obama did was a welfare, graft and pay-off program to his cronies, supporters and sycophants.

 

[code1211]

I demonstrated my assertion with actual GOVERNANCE; laws and actions.

NOW...SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

You CAN'T! But right wing turds like you believe that YOUR premises are the default.

Powers not granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the States or to the people.

Since this none of the things you mention are cited by the Constitution, they are reserved to the States or to the people.

You cannot support your assertion because your assertion is baseless.




Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

I will be waiting................

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

I don't know if you're playing stupid or not playing...

Anything, A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G, not specifically reserved to the Feds by the Constitution is given to the states or to the people.

The Constitution is a document of limitation. It limits the Federal Government. It grants to the Federal Government certain defined powers and these are enumerated. Ergo, the Enumerated Powers. If any power is not reserved to Feds, it is not. Period.

Absence of anything from the Constitution means that it is not a power of the Feds.

Are you failing to grasp this or just being obtuse?

 

[Bfgrn]

Powers not granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the States or to the people.

Since this none of the things you mention are cited by the Constitution, they are reserved to the States or to the people.

You cannot support your assertion because your assertion is baseless.




Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Amendment 9 - Construction of Constitution. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

SHOW ME where in the Constitution it mentions free markets, capitalism, an invisible hand, or deregulation?

I will be waiting................

"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29

I don't know if you're playing stupid or not playing...

Anything, A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G, not specifically reserved to the Feds by the Constitution is given to the states or to the people.

The Constitution is a document of limitation. It limits the Federal Government. It grants to the Federal Government certain defined powers and these are enumerated. Ergo, the Enumerated Powers. If any power is not reserved to Feds, it is not. Period.

Absence of anything from the Constitution means that it is not a power of the Feds.

Are you failing to grasp this or just being obtuse?

NOW, in 2012, we have a whole group of dogmatic driven ideologues who absolutely KNOW the founder's true intent.

I will restate what I said in a previous post on this thread:

Debate and argument over the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Federalist papers has been going on for over 200 years by and between citizens, scholars, theologians and polemics. It is nothing new, and our founder's true intent on many issues has not become any closer to being resolved.

So when we have an example of how those same men applied all those principles, beliefs and ideas to actual governing, it serves as the best example of how they put all those principles, beliefs and ideas to use. Their actions carry the most weight.

Our founding fathers did not subscribe to Adam Smith's 'invisible hand'. They believed in very heavy regulations and restrictions on corporations. They were men who held ethics as the most important attribute. They viewed being paid by the American people for their services as a privilege not a right. And they had no problem closing down any corporation that swindled the people, and holding owners and stockholder personally liable for any harm to the people they caused.

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I just showed you how our founding fathers GOVERNED. Now YOU show me in the Constitution where there is any mention of a free market, an invisible hand or unregulated business?

Dear, thats the whole point, it was not mentioned, it was taken for granted that the Feds would not interfere with free, natural, voluntary economic relationships. Indeed, that is exactly how the Republicans governed in 1800!!

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government" -Jefferson

 

[Dragon]

Let's hop into the time machine and go back to 2009

Et cetera. I mostly agree with what you're saying in this post, but would like to point out that what you're saying is 1) the government should have made stimulus available faster, and 2) it should also have targeted the money better so as to boost demand more rather than providing a payoff for campaign donors. I might quibble with your specific ideas, but this general point is undeniable.

I agree. The stimulus was very poorly handled. It was also too small. In saying what I did above, I was defending the general principle, definitely not President Obama's application of it, which like so much of what he's done fell far short of what he promised and should have delivered.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

[
The premise you are trying to prove is idiotic. Republican is a word. IT has no correlation to today's Republican party. The party Thomas Jefferson and James Madison founded was called The Democratic-Republican Party.

If you have primary source to confirm use of the term in 18th Century I'll pay you $10,000, bet or run away again with your liberal tail between your legs.


5th Congress (1797-1799)

Majority Party: Federalist (22 seats)

Minority Party: Republican (10 seats)

Other Parties: 0

Total Seats: 32

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6th Congress (1799-1801)

Majority Party: Federalist (22 seats)

Minority Party: Republican (10 seats)

Other Parties: 0

Total Seats: 32

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7th Congress (1801-1803)

Majority Party: Republican (17 seats)

Minority Party: Federalist (15 seats)

Other Parties: 0

Vacant: 2

Total Seats: 34

 

[regent]

The reality is closer to what Justice Hughes said, "The Constitution is what the Court say it is." There you have it, and will all the posts change that?
Is a law Constitutional unless found by the Court to be unconstitutional?

 

[Dragon]

Among the enumerated powers granted to Congress in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, along with many narrowly defined powers there are two, or maybe three, very, very broad powers that encompass an enormous amount of government authority. These are the power to tax and spend, which Congress may do "to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," and the power to regulate interstate and international commerce. The third power is the so-called "necessary and proper" clause, but that's a power dependent on the scope of the others and so perhaps not a broad power in itself.

Between them, the broad powers to tax and spend and to regulate interstate commerce imply that the Constitution definitely does NOT envision limitations on the government consonant with free-market libertarianism.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Today's Republican party is much more in line with Alexander Hamilton's vision of big business and corporations.

too stupid but perfectly liberal given the BO just took over 20% of the economy in perfect crony capitalist style while Republicans want free enterprise. Are you really intelligent enough to be here?

After the Constitution was adopted, Americans were presented with two different visions of the nation's economic future. One, championed by Thomas Jefferson, aimed to preserve an economy based on independent farmers producing agricultural products for market. In contrast, Alexander Hamilton envisioned a robust industrial American economy.

too stupid but perefectly liberal

1) Hamilton and the Federalists were defeated by Jefferson never to heard from again

2) Jefferson called it the second American Revolution.

3) Yes, in the beginning Jefferson thought of farming and importing manufactured goods from Europe, but by time he was in office he was enforcing an embargo against European trade and so encouraging domestic manufacturing.