If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[Tom Paine 1949]

Those "referendums" you are referring to did have massive voting irregularities and outright fraud. Most due to illegal immigration of Russian Nationalists sent to cause trouble. The true gendrational residents called them out regularly but due to "issues" stemming from the newish government these problems went unaddressed until it resulted in fighting.

Kinda like these neighborhoods in America where Middle Eastern people move in and declare that sharia law supercedes American law.

I speak only of the Crimea referendums in 2014 to separate from Ukraine and join Russia, not those in the Donbas. If you read carefully even the Wikipedia article on the subject, and pay attention to the long part on Western and independent pollsters who researched Crimean opinions then and immediately afterwards, you will see that despite Western refusal to recognize that hasty Russian-organized referendum, the results did in fact reflect the basic views of the great majority of Crimeans at that time. This is all I was saying.

2014 Crimean status referendum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

P.S. Your reference & comparison to “sharia law” in U.S. neighborhoods is unrelated hallucinatory fear-mongering, the product of misinformation or even bigotry.

 

[Deadstick]

You are a rusbot. There is no doubt that Putin sees himself as the force for Russian restoration of the old empire.

Either he withdraws from Ukraine or he dies.

There are no other viable outcomes.

Well there is a doubt, that's why i mentioned it, and what the hell is a Rusbot anyone who doesn't parrot the official narrative? and why would Putin die unless you resort to the usual gangster methods of murdering any World leader that gets in the way, you seem to be under the ridiculous illusion that Russia is Iraq or Libya.

 

[Deadstick]

I speak only of the Crimea referendums in 2014 to separate from Ukraine and join Russia, not those in the Donbas. If you read carefully even the Wikipedia article on the subject, and pay attention to the long part on Western and independent pollsters who researched Crimean opinions then and immediately afterwards, you will see that despite Western refusal to recognize these hasty Russian-organized referendums, the results did in fact reflect the basic views of the great majority of Crimeans at that time. This is all I was saying.

2014 Crimean status referendum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

P.S. Your reference & comparison to “sharia law” in U.S. neighborhoods is unrelated hallucinatory fear-mongering, the product of misinformation or even bigotry.

All we need to look at is the result of the last real democratic election in Ukraine, back in 2010 before the coup, it shows where the peoples sympathy is.

 

[Bleipriester]

Looks like the Krauts want something much more hotter.

The Unkrauts want what they are being told to want. I consider moving to Ukraine to escape the homo regime and its whores.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

All we need to look at is the result of the last real democratic election in Ukraine, back in 2010 before the coup, it shows where the peoples sympathy is.

A good map of voter’s sympathies then. Your comment, however, should have said something like it shows where the people’s sympathies were.

Much has changed since 2010, especially after Putin’s invasion and bombing, which brought devastation most of all to those areas where Russian-speaking, previously sympathetic “pro-Russia” or just “pro-neutrality” voters lived.

 

[Deadstick]

A good map of voter’s sympathies then. Your comment, however, should have said something like it shows where the people’s sympathies are were.

Much has changed since 2014, especially after Putin’s invasion and bombing, which devastated most of all areas where Russian-speaking, previously sympathetic “pro-Russia” or just “pro-neutrality” voters lived.

The only thing that will have changed is there is even more pro Russian sympathy after 8 years of Kiev bombing those civilians, it's not Russia that's been killing those people it's Ukrainian Nazis, it's one of the reasons for the war.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Well there is a doubt, that's why i mentioned it, and what the hell is a Rusbot anyone who doesn't parrot the official narrative? and why would Putin die unless you resort to the usual gangster methods of murdering any World leader that gets in the way, you seem to be under the ridiculous illusion that Russia is Iraq or Libya.

You sound off the regular rusbot themes.

 

[Deadstick]

You sound off the regular rusbot themes.

I just give my opinion based on what i hear and see from several sites in many different Countries, people should research more instead of just parroting the official bullshit, it's lazy.

 

[Deadstick]

A good map of voter’s sympathies then. Your comment, however, should have said something like it shows where the people’s sympathies were.

Much has changed since 2010, especially after Putin’s invasion and bombing, which brought devastation most of all to those areas where Russian-speaking, previously sympathetic “pro-Russia” or just “pro-neutrality” voters lived.

Well Tom this vid shows what has been going on since 2014 to civilians in Donbass, some people are still in denial about, now why would these people ever want to be part of Ukraine again? i have blurred the images in the vid, the full brutal reality would put any normal person off their dinner.

https://player.odycdn.com/api/v4/streams/free/ukraine-shelled-a-completely-civilian/0a8c74f1c8de3b5cdde7f5a9d2254dd7f3c46491/66a5fb

 

[AlexanderPK]

Are you asleep at the wheel?

Poland wants in this fight so bad it can taste it. They have 150,000 mobilized troops at the ready to invade Ukraine the moment their Counteroffensive falters. Plus another 400K to back them up. Meanwhile Russia is supposedly massing 100,000 troops to advance and take Karkhiv.

With tonight's attack on the last remaining ports of Ukrainians had....this is escalating and escalating.

How much longer until the world becomes a rotisserie? Dunno. Depends on if the Russians let Putin continue the madness.

Do they sleep talk and scream too, like those Irish Rambos from above?

 

[Deadstick]

Horseshit.

Since WWI, the US has never invaded another country for the sole purpose of taking control of it, as Russia has done in Ukraine, so if you don't want to be a hypocrite, stop trying to find moral equivalence between America's actions and Putin's.

Keenan's world view was shaped by the great cold war, which ended in 1991 with the collapse of the USSR, and Russia was no longer the great power the USSR had been, and the whole world, including Russia at that time recognized the former soviet states as sovereign nations, so Keenan's Cold War world view was rejected by the western world.

The important thing to remember is that at no time since 1991 did NATO pose a threat to Russia's security, so if Russia objected to eastern European nations joining NATO, it could only mean Russia was withdrawing its recognition of their sovereignty and that means it was urgent for them to join NATO, and if the US were to deny these nations the opportunity to defend themselves by joining NATO, it would have amounted to the US also withdrawing its recognition of their sovereignty, and this would have been unacceptable to anyone who had any hope of a better world.

 

[AlexanderPK]

JohnDB
Well, something's not right in the West. Before Uks used to shoot down all plus one missiles Russians launched, now they are down to 14 out of 31. What gives?

Are the Poles still chomping at the bit?

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB
Well, something's not right in the West. Before Uks used to shoot down all plus one missiles Russians launched, now they are down to 14 out of 31. What gives?

Are the Poles still chomping at the bit?

I have no idea....
And Op-Sec is still in place.
Air defense is all the way under Op-Sec. Nobody discusses that at all.
So I have no idea....and neither do you.

And poking at the Poles is not a good idea. Million man army is coming....it's not getting to be that big for no reason. The 500K is super-sized by European standards already.

Currently Poland has more troops on its border than Russia sent to Afghanistan during the entire time it occupied Afghanistan.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Well Tom this vid shows what has been going on since 2014 to civilians in Donbass, some people are still in denial about, now why would these people ever want to be part of Ukraine again? i have blurred the images in the vid, the full brutal reality would put any normal person off their dinner.

https://player.odycdn.com/api/v4/streams/free/ukraine-shelled-a-completely-civilian/0a8c74f1c8de3b5cdde7f5a9d2254dd7f3c46491/66a5fb

I am fully aware of the dire situation civilians in the Donbas faced since 2014 under Russian-Ukrainian militia control. The civil occupations that started there quickly became a civil war, Russian “volunteers” poured in and extended the area of anti-Maidan control, then the Ukrainian nationalist militias got organized and retook some areas leaving a bloody stalemate in Donetsk and Luhansk.

From 2014 until Putin’s 2022 invasion there were thousands (maybe 14,000?) casualties, quite a lot of them civilians, a majority native Russian speakers. The economic and political situation worsened for residents and non-combatants. Now the Donbas Russian-speaking fighters are probably suffering much higher casualties, as are innocent civilians caught up in the intensifying battle.

There are “Nazi-like” elements on all sides. The central Ukrainian government cares about as little for the Russian-speaking rebels in Donbas as Putin cares about Ukrainian-speakers or others who oppose Russia’s invasion. This is a tragic war.

Nevertheless, in Ukraine as a whole, most of the (difficult to access) evidence seems to indicate that Ukrainian nationalism has grown stronger since 2014 and especially since Feb. 2022. This may one day change again. But for now Zelensky, though dependent on Western support, and now of course muzzling his own political opposition, has led the Ukrainian nationalist cause competently and bravely, and he has reaped popular support within Ukraine as a result. His being a fluent Russian speaker and a Jew has helped many Ukrainian Russian speakers outside of Donbas to trust that Ukie fascist elements will remain under control, despite what Russian propaganda claims. The fact that Zelensky and Ukrainian nationalism now has the financial and military support of powerful outside forces in Washington and Europe also helps his cause tremendously.

Everybody wants to be on the side of a “winner,” but beyond that it is now Russia and Putin’s invasion that are clearly seen as bringing the war and its misery “home” … at least to most Ukrainians. The West is seen as helping them maintain their independence. Also, while cynicism and war-weariness must abound, optimists probably still hope for a future as an integral part of modern Europe. We shall have to see what the future brings — besides more war, suffering and further depopulation on all sides.

 

[Likkmee]

Ukastan lost before it began.... but the cash flow is good

 

[AlexanderPK]

JohnDB
Funny lads, these Poles are, you know. Give them enough rope and ...

 

[AlexanderPK]

The man sounds sincere.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I think the Brookings Institute article is childish and based on misleading linguistic distinctions of no real import. As for Gorbachev, first of all he was hardly the only person involved. Widely blamed in Russia for allowing himself to be “hoodwinked” by Westerners on this issue., the old man here was trying to defend his honor and the West too, so he made a silly, self-serving and misleading distinction between “NATO expansion” and expanding “NATO military facilities and authority.”

The Brookings article runs with and distorts even Gorbachev’s view. In the actual interview, Gorbachev (still misleadingly) claimed of those first few years:

A much better overall picture of what happened in reality and what is still relevant today is portrayed in this brief summary and in the four short linked articles attached to it. These articles also reveal some of the more recent archival evidence that shows much more of what was said and “promised” in those heady days:

How Gorbachev was misled over assurances against NATO expansion | NATO Watch

Of course certain Machiavellians would argue that to the extent that the West was consciously duplicitous in telling Russian leaders lies they wanted to believe they were just being … “clever.”

Others might argue that the U.S. and its European allies had simply not decided yet on the final policy they would adopt a few years later, and were merely temporizing until matters became clearer. As it turned out, new developments would dramatically alter the thinking of all new leaders over the following years, and lead us to where we are today.

All bullshit. Gorbachev was very clear that that no assurances were made about not allowing former soviet states to join NATO, and anyone with a brain would understand that such assurances would have been impossible since they would violate the NATO Charter, but your passionate support for all of Putin's lies is noted.

 

[luiza]

How many Faries can balance on one pin?-- while the Silly Billy Boys argue , it is good to see that the Kyiv Nazi third army is near destroyed and the successful Russian SMO happily continues . And Pro Nazi bot Winkle Titty has still not expained how the fall in the ruble has made Russia the richest nation on the planet . He is not the brightest, between you and me

 

[toomuchtime_]

As I pointed out earlier, this is an absurd and even infantile argument. Ukraine’s people were not in favor of joining NATO in 2008. Ukraine was not at all ready governmentally or militarily to join or meet absolutely minimum requirements for joining NATO. Indeed, it was not even ready to sign an economic agreement with the EU. It was later to re-elect — in a fair election no less — the very corrupt Yanukovych government that was subsequently overthrown by the Maidan movement!

Again, nothing but bullshit from you. Before Russia's 2008 invasion of Georgia, there was little interest in joining NATO, but after the invasion, there was a sharp increase in support for joining NATO and Ukraine applied. It was clear to eveyone, except perhaps a Putinhead like yourself, that Ukraine would be next, and, in that context, Bush supported Ukraine's application.

While it is true that Ukraine did not then meet the minimum criteria to join, in order the rules could have been bent by issuing a provisional invitation that would list the changes that had to be made by a certain date to prevent a Russian invasion. If, in fact, this had been done, as Bush suggested, there would have been no 2014 invasion and no 2022 invasion.

After the 2008 Russian invasion of Georgia, the Ukrainian people and government wanted to join NATO and no one in NATO wanted to see a Russian invasion of Ukraine, so it would have made sense to find a way to include Ukraine in NATO to stop Russia from invading it. Without a doubt the world would be a better place today if this had been done.