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In theory it's been independent from Russia since 1991, that's when the orange idiot in Ukraine started the Bandera project backed by the US and it's vassals, that has resulted in the War in Ukraine and Ukraine reduced to a fascist failed state and economic basket case, the fact is as part of the Soviet Union Ukrainians were far better off, that's just a fact.Wrong
Ukraine is independent from russia no matter how you try to spin it otherwise
Once again you don't face reality, that so called invasion of Georgia was a response to the US encouraging that tie eating clown Saackashvili to attack South Ossetia he thought Nato had his back, the scumbag killed civilians and Russian peacekeepers in that midnight Blitzkrieg, later even the EU said he was responsible for the war,mistake Russia made was not bringing that clown back to Moscow in a cage, the US used the same playbook in the Krijina region of Croatia, that led to a quarter of a million Serbs cleansed from the area and many dead in operation Storm, that is the blueprint they had for Donbass but they were stopped by the resistance, if Russia pulled back from Donbass today the Ukrainian fascists would make operation Storm in the Krijina look like a tea party, there would be millions of refugees and tens of thousands massacred, Russia will not allow that to happen.Ok, you are a solid Putinhead, but no one is paying attention to Putin's bullshit. Bush understood, as did nearly the whole rest of the world, that the Russian invasion of Georgia was imminent, even if the fact had not yet registered in the minds of the Ukrainians, and he understood the only way to prevent Putin from invading Ukraine was to admit it to NATO, and as soon as the invasion occurred, the Ukrainians agreed. The fact remains that if NATO had found a way to admit Ukraine in 2008, the 2014 and 2022 Russian invasions of Ukraine would not have taken place, and if NATO had found a way to admit Georgia much sooner, the Russian invasion of Georgia would not have taken place.
In theory it's been independent from Russia since 1991, that's when the orange idiot in Ukraine started the Bandera project backed by the US and it's vassals, that has resulted in the War in Ukraine and Ukraine reduced to a fascist failed state and economic basket case, the fact is as part of the Soviet Union Ukrainians were far better off, that's just a fact.
I wouldn't even go that far.
Putin wants to restore the USSR.
Hitler wanted to conquer all of Europe.
Putin is wrong, but he's not Hitler.
I am talking about the years before the Maidan Coup, there were people suffering all over the Soviet Union in the time those photos are from, same as this in the USA dust bowl was a different time.
They dont fight like people who think they were better off under russian dominationIn theory it's been independent from Russia since 1991, that's when the orange idiot in Ukraine started the Bandera project backed by the US and it's vassals, that has resulted in the War in Ukraine and Ukraine reduced to a fascist failed state and economic basket case, the fact is as part of the Soviet Union Ukrainians were far better off, that's just a fact.
Russian domination ? when it was part of the Soviet Union two Presidents were Ukrainian, it had the best standard of living than other parts of the Soviet Union, same with Yugoslavia before Nato destroyed that Country,also Libya best standard of living in Africa, before the Empire of chaos destroyed it and stole all the gold in Libya,and don't forget for the most part the Ukrainians in the Western part of the Country collaborated with the Nazi invasion, so when people talk about we are supporting the Ukrainian people, it's not all the people, most in the Donbass didn't collaborate with the Nazis they fought against them, two million Ukrainians served in the Red army, there were three hundred thousand Ukrainian partisans fighting against Hitler.They dont fight like people who think they were better off under russian domination
In fact they seem rather impressed with the idea of being independent
You talk like you were soviet born and more pro-Russia than I, born, raised and living there, am. Where do you come from I wonder?Russian domination ? when it was part of the Soviet Union two Presidents were Ukrainian, it had the best standard of living than other parts of the Soviet Union, same with Yugoslavia before Nato destroyed that Country,also Libya best standard of living in Africa, before the Empire of chaos destroyed it and stole all the gold in Libya,and don't forget for the most part the Ukrainians in the Western part of the Country collaborated with the Nazi invasion, so when people talk about we are supporting the Ukrainian people, it's not all the people, most in the Donbass didn't collaborate with the Nazis they fought against them, two million Ukrainians served in the Red army, there were three hundred thousand Ukrainian partisans fighting against Hitler.
Cut the bullshit, Putiinhead. You make these bogus claims in the hope it will give you some credibility when you tout Putin's lies and and call for a ceasefire, stating that a Russian victory in Ukraine would make NATO and the US stronger and other nonsense.God, you can say some stupid things! With all the people in the U.S. who now don’t trust our own government and actually support the lies and distortions of the Trumps and Putins of the world, you go out of your way to attack and insult … me.
I am probably among the best and most effective opponents of Putin’s invasion of Ukraine here on USMB, because I try to tell the whole truth and not just repeat U.S. neo-liberal & neo-con “Atlantic Council” propaganda. I praise the Biden Administration for having successfully held Europe together and strengthened NATO after Putin’s recent bloody invasion of Ukraine despite some longtime errors of U.S. foreign policy. I support U.S. & NATO military / economic aid to Ukraine to help Ukrainians protect their sovereignty and drive back the Russians.
From Vietnam to the U.S. invasions / occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, to our many foreign policy errors in South and Central America, real socially progressive patriots have not feared to criticize U.S. policy abroad just to follow some ”party line” as you do.
By speaking to me as if I support Putin’s bloody invasion of Ukraine, and calling me a “Putinhead,” you are about as clever and funny as a Trump cultist MAGA Republican.
I talk about what I believe are some historical errors the U.S. committed under both parties in the past precisely to do my part to strengthen our own democracy, to help less well-informed Americans understand the complicated reality behind this war. There were many factors that led to this tragic war — which may prove to be “never ending” unless it is resolved by a presently unpalatable “land for peace” agreement.
Read the comments here and listen to the zeitgeist in our divided country. Blind partisan cheerleading and taking an ultra-partisan position on every point in dispute is only likely to help demagogues like Donald Trump, who better simplify all things and always promise quick and easy answers.
As an internationalist, a social democrat, a retired working-class union man, as an anti-imperialist and an experienced activist who as far back as the Vietnam War fought the good fight, I am not about to stop explaining reality to gullible Americans just because that reality is complex. You may not be a gullible Trump supporter like so many here, but you don’t know half as much as you think you do.
That is probably why you must resort to insulting me and never think to question one-sided and unconvincing arguments you find in American neo-liberal journals.
They are both problems for the whole world, but you don't think the fact that Russia has withdrawn from all nuclear treaties, moved its nuclear weapons closer to US forces in Europe and to US allies, is currently fighting wars on three continents, and has violated all relevant treaties and laws is a problem?Russia is a problem insofar as they have hundreds if not thousands of nuclear weapons and a former KGB operative as its president.
China is like a metastasized cancer in the body of the world. China does not plan for the future in four-year segments as we do, they plan decades into the future. Anyone who does not view them as a critical threat to the world in the near future is a fool.
According to Putin, but not according to the civilized world.Once again you don't face reality, that so called invasion of Georgia was a response to the US encouraging that tie eating clown Saackashvili to attack South Ossetia he thought Nato had his back, the scumbag killed civilians and Russian peacekeepers in that midnight Blitzkrieg, later even the EU said he was responsible for the war,mistake Russia made was not bringing that clown back to Moscow in a cage, the US used the same playbook in the Krijina region of Croatia, that led to a quarter of a million Serbs cleansed from the area and many dead in operation Storm, that is the blueprint they had for Donbass but they were stopped by the resistance, if Russia pulled back from Donbass today the Ukrainian fascists would make operation Storm in the Krijina look like a tea party, there would be millions of refugees and tens of thousands massacred, Russia will not allow that to happen.
Now it is clear what a stupid fucking liar and coward you are. You really are a disgraceful and unprincipled person, acting like a Trump acolyte — only you ape his demagogy to defend the DNC and Atlantic Charter “liberal imperialist” world view.Cut the bullshit, Putiinhead. You make these bogus claims in the hope it will give you some credibility when you tout Putin's lies and and call for a ceasefire, stating that a Russian victory in Ukraine would make NATO and the US stronger and other nonsense.
In the very unlikely case of Russia re-stabilizing itself, making big military advances, and the Ukrainian state itself essentially collapsing — Zelensky and top generals can be killed — then I would still oppose the U.S.or NATO entering the war with its own soldiers.
This struggle is of course partly a “proxy war,” but it is also a genuine Ukrainian independence struggle. The U.S. and NATO could survive and maybe even grow stronger should the Russians somehow manage to “win” eventually, so long as they [i.e. NATO] at least keep their pledge to do everything they can to help the Ukrainians fight their own battle.
It is important that Russia not come out of this terrible war stronger, but any possible “victory” for authoritarian Russia over Ukraine would now be essentially “Pyrrhic” and circumscribed, one that would almost certainly not reverse Russia’s national decline.
Isn't it ironic (I think Americans like that phrase, don't they?) to see two pro-Ukrainian boneheads tearing each other a new one over something that both of them can't intrinsically disagree with: Russia bad, Hohloland good.Cut the bullshit, Putiinhead. You make these bogus claims in the hope it will give you some credibility when you tout Putin's lies and and call for a ceasefire, stating that a Russian victory in Ukraine would make NATO and the US stronger and other nonsense.
Again, how come the other a-hole is not your best friend? I'd say you are twins twisted by your history fairy tales and CNN.AleksanderPK:
All you have is false bravado to offer. Also death & destruction to Ukrainians and national suicide for Russians. Russia’s population and place in the world is already in steep decline. No bloody “victory” over Ukraine in their country will help you rebuild your beloved Russia, its economy or “greatness.”
The tragic war that Putin launched in Feb. 2022 may turn Russia into a chaotic battleground of warlords and siloviki factions or even lead to the disintegration of the Russian Federation, or on the other hand it may complete the conversion of Russian society into a totalitarian fascist state. It will not … “Make Russia Great Again.”
Give it up, Putinhead, no matter how slick and tricky you think you may be, there is virtually no support in the US for ending aid to Ukraine or for giving Russia a victory by declaring a ceasefire before Russia begins to withdraw from Ukraine.Now it is clear what a stupid fucking liar and coward you are. You really are a disgraceful and unprincipled person, acting like a Trump acolyte — only you ape his demagogy to defend the DNC and Atlantic Charter “liberal imperialist” world view.
Below I repeat what I actually said on the subject of a hypothetical, still possible but quite unlikely, and certainly undesirable, “Russian victory” in its bloody attempt to destroy independent Ukraine — which you distort to make it sound like this view is somehow “Putin propaganda.”
Note that I directly address the OP theme of this discussion, maintaining the present Administration’s position of opposition to committing U.S. troops to a ground war in Ukraine. You haven’t even the courage to discuss this issue.
thehill.com
