If Ukraine loses the war and Russia occupies Ukraine, the US and Europe may not have a choice, but to go to war

[JohnDB]

Zelensky: Ukrainian loss could force US to choose between ‘collapse of NATO’ or war

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war. “If Ukraine would lose, if Russi…

thehill.com

I know it is scary, but that may be the only choice left. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, if he occupies the country.

It is taking a LOT to keep Poland out of Ukraine now. They want a piece of Russia so bad they can taste it.

Ukraine still hasn't really started the counter-offensive yet. These are shaping and probing operations. These operations take weeks. War is difficult and isn't as quick as a video game. The blitz of fully engaging the Ukranian armed forces hasn't even started. And yet everyone is buzzing about how they have stalled....which is ludicrous at this point.
They are testing the Russian Generals at this moment...and they seem to keep dying and getting replaced.

There's much more to come....lots of surprises coming down the pike.

 

[luiza]

Bernhardt this morning about the disaster for Kyiv . " The question for Russia is when and with whom. Talks with only Ukraine, a mere U.S. proxy with no real say, would be insufficient. It is the U.S. government that must agree to a new security architecture in Europe. The Russian conditions for peace will be harsh and it will still take a lot of time, and many dead Ukrainians, until the U.S. agrees to them."

 

[petro]

Endless wars...

Now the idiot OP wants to bomb Russia.
No wonder America is broke financially and morally.

 

[JohnDB]

Bernhardt this morning about the disaster for Kyiv . " The question for Russia is when and with whom. Talks with only Ukraine, a mere U.S. proxy with no real say, would be insufficient. It is the U.S. government that must agree to a new security architecture in Europe. The Russian conditions for peace will be harsh and it will still take a lot of time, and many dead Ukrainians, until the U.S. agrees to them."

Russia for all intent and purposes is a zombie nation....dead but still moving. It's over....gone....dead....
Their one slim chance at surviving as a nation keeps dwindling away like the value of the Ruble. Texas has a larger GDP than Russia.

 

[luiza]

See Post 62 for link indication .Absolute disaster for Nazis in Kyiv .

Destruction Of Its Third Army - Issues To Negotiate​

Another Ukrainian attack got bogged down in a minefield.

bigger
Losses:

• 3 Finnish Leopard 2R with mine clearing equipment
• 1 German Bergepanzer III recovery tank (based on the Leopard 2 chassis) with mine clearing equipment
• 2 German Leopard 2M6
• 2 U.S. M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles
• 1 U.S. MaxxPro armored transport vehicle
• 1 U.S. HMMWV armored transport vehicle
• 1 unidentified vehicle

This follows other significant recent losses.

The total replacement cost of the above vehicles at present value is about $60-70 million.

During the spring and summer of 2022 the Russian forces destroyed the regular Ukrainian pre-war army. It was replaced with Soviet era material from east European states and Ukrainian draftees. By the beginning of this year that second army had also been destroyed.

What we currently witness is the demilitarization of Ukraine's third army.

As I detailed back in January:

The stocks of two complete armies have by now been destroyed in Ukraine. The resources for a smaller third one will be delivered in the next rounds of 'western' equipment deliveries during the next months. Russia will dully destroy Ukraine's third army just as it has destroyed the first and second one. It is doubtful that the 'West' has enough material left to provide Ukraine with a fourth one.
That then leaves only two options. Send in 'western' armies with the equipment they still have or declare victory and go home.

I do not sense any appetite in the U.S. or Europe to send their soldiers into Ukraine. It is quite obvious that their fates would be no different from the Ukrainian ones.

That leaves negotiations as the only option. There will be a lot of hesitation as the price Russia will ask for to stop the war will be high:

For starters, will Russia insist on securing the rights to all territory east of the Dnieper River and on a special status for Odessa? I think so. Odessa would no longer be ruled by Ukraine. I also would expect Russia to demand (non-negotiable) the arrest and prosecution of those responsible for the murder of 42 Russian speaking Ukrainians in 2014 who sought refuge in the Trade Unions House.
I also would expect that Russia will demand the dismantling of NATO Aegis missile systems in Poland and Romania and a ban on U.S. or NATO troops being posted in countries that share a border with Ukraine. In light of Russia’s stated goal of de-nazification I would not be surprised if Russia demands the laws of Ukraine be changed and that Nazi-affiliated parties and symbols be banned.

I believe that Russia will want all historic Russian regions, at least those which Lenin and Khrushchev for whatever reasons gave to Ukraine, back under Russian control. Russia will also demand the lifting of all sanctions against it.

The West is failing to grasp the reality that Russia believes it is winning the war in Ukraine and that it is not suffering economic or political damage at home. And, when you factor in the international arena, the war has proven to be a boon for Russia’s efforts to help create a new international financial/trade system that circumvents Washington’s control. In other words, Russia has little incentive to entertain negotiations that would require Russian concessions.

It will still need some time for the 'western' public to move from swallowing 'Ukraine is wining' propaganda towards acknowledging reality. It unfortunately will also still take more Ukrainian and Russian losses.

But I strongly believe, maybe too wishfully, that the end of the war is now coming into sight.

-

 

[JohnDB]

See Post 62 for link indication .Absolute disaster for Nazis in Kyiv .

Destruction Of Its Third Army - Issues To Negotiate​

Another Ukrainian attack got bogged down in a minefield.

bigger
Losses:

• 3 Finnish Leopard 2R with mine clearing equipment
• 1 German Bergepanzer III recovery tank (based on the Leopard 2 chassis) with mine clearing equipment
• 2 German Leopard 2M6
• 2 U.S. M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles
• 1 U.S. MaxxPro armored transport vehicle
• 1 U.S. HMMWV armored transport vehicle
• 1 unidentified vehicle

This follows other significant recent losses.

The total replacement cost of the above vehicles at present value is about $60-70 million.

During the spring and summer of 2022 the Russian forces destroyed the regular Ukrainian pre-war army. It was replaced with Soviet era material from east European states and Ukrainian draftees. By the beginning of this year that second army had also been destroyed.

What we currently witness is the demilitarization of Ukraine's third army.

As I detailed back in January:


I do not sense any appetite in the U.S. or Europe to send their soldiers into Ukraine. It is quite obvious that their fates would be no different from the Ukrainian ones.

That leaves negotiations as the only option. There will be a lot of hesitation as the price Russia will ask for to stop the war will be high:


I believe that Russia will want all historic Russian regions, at least those which Lenin and Khrushchev for whatever reasons gave to Ukraine, back under Russian control. Russia will also demand the lifting of all sanctions against it.


It will still need some time for the 'western' public to move from swallowing 'Ukraine is wining' propaganda towards acknowledging reality. It unfortunately will also still take more Ukrainian and Russian losses.

But I strongly believe, maybe too wishfully, that the end of the war is now coming into sight.

-

They have been showing the EXACT SAME 5 TANKS for over a week now. No new pictures whatsoever...just a bunch of different angles of the same 5 tanks. While Germany just tossed Ukraine the keys to a dozen more. (Including two new minesweepers)

And we don't know how long we can hold the leash on Poland. (Its getting difficult) They might just destroy Belarus for capitulation to Russia. Then take on Iran for good measure.

Funny how former Soviet states really are angry with Moscow for some reason.

 

[AlexanderPK]

They have been showing the EXACT SAME 5 TANKS for over a week now. No new pictures whatsoever...just a bunch of different angles of the same 5 tanks. While Germany just tossed Ukraine the keys to a dozen more. (Including two new minesweepers)

And we don't know how long we can hold the leash on Poland. (Its getting difficult) They might just destroy Belarus for capitulation to Russia. Then take on Iran for good measure.

Funny how former Soviet states really are angry with Moscow for some reason.

Did you try letting them off the leash?

 

[laferia52]

You going to send the money?

I said the EU needs to contribute more. I did not say I was interested in helping. are you going to help them?

 

[Kruska]

I said the EU needs to contribute more. I did not say I was interested in helping. are you going to help them?

Why on earth should I ? - you are the one favoring a prolonging of this ridiculous war.

 

[laferia52]

Why on earth should I ? - you are the one favoring a prolonging of this ridiculous war.

I am just saying if a country is a NATO member they need to contribute their fair share. as it is the USA covers the lion's share of NATO's budget.

 

[Kruska]

My statement may be false for you and your ilk. For me, that is an obvious thing, as well as for any one who followed this process.

Nothing to do with me or my ilk - it's facts that don't fit your narrative, that's all - if you prefer to ignore a constitutional amendment or those who "followed this process" choose to do the same - then they too are simply wrong and can't face facts.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Zelensky: Ukrainian loss could force US to choose between ‘collapse of NATO’ or war

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war. “If Ukraine would lose, if Russi…

thehill.com

I know it is scary, but that may be the only choice left. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, if he occupies the country.

Col MacGregor makes the case the after Russia defeats the Ukrainian counteroffensive, they will move to Odessa and Kharkov.

I suppose next steps: Then rid Kiev of Zelen$ky and the WEF and let the Ukrainian people elect a real representative government

 

[Kruska]

I am just saying if a country is a NATO member they need to contribute their fair share. as it is the USA covers the lion's share of NATO's budget.

There is no such thing as a NATO budget - what on earth are you taking about?
First you babble about EU needing to spend more money on Ukraine - and now you switch to the defense budgets of individual countries.

 

[JohnDB]

Now Wagner Group has stepped in it....

There's a REASON why Putin wants to completely control Wagner Group by nationalizing them. Wagner just became the defacto military of Mali. With Mali's immense resources (which Wagner is the chief recipient of) Russia can bolster its reserves (which are depleted) and continue to prop up the Ruble.

So...interesting to see how this plays out. Of course the various ethnic groups in Mali are going to murder each other...that part really sucks.

So either Wagner gives Putin his gold and minerals....or Putin begins to seize the private banks in Russia (as no one wants to hold Rubles and private banks are the only place to exchange them)

Gonna be a show for sure

 

[JimH52]

Russia for all intent and purposes is a zombie nation....dead but still moving. It's over....gone....dead....
Their one slim chance at surviving as a nation keeps dwindling away like the value of the Ruble. Texas has a larger GDP than Russia.

Poootin set back Russia generations. He was an idiot to invade, but he thought it would be easy after Crimea.

 

[Invisibleflash]

Zelensky: Ukrainian loss could force US to choose between ‘collapse of NATO’ or war

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war. “If Ukraine would lose, if Russi…

thehill.com

I know it is scary, but that may be the only choice left. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, if he occupies the country.

US / NATO wants some land acquisition. Thats the plan, bub. As a bonus, Russia will never rise again and will be extinct.

 

[ESay]

Nothing to do with me or my ilk - it's facts that don't fit your narrative, that's all - if you prefer to ignore a constitutional amendment or those who "followed this process" choose to do the same - then they too are simply wrong and can't face facts.

I repeat it again, slowly for you. Ukraine, not becoming a NATO member, was not because of the policy of Ukrainian government (with some exceptions).

It was mainly because of position of some European NATO members 'not to provoke Russia '.

 

[Baron]

Zelensky: Ukrainian loss could force US to choose between ‘collapse of NATO’ or war

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war. “If Ukraine would lose, if Russi…

thehill.com

I know it is scary, but that may be the only choice left. Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine, if he occupies the country.

Of course NATO will 'fight' against their freemason buddy Putin to clean together Russia/Ukraine up from their current populations and to start the project Khazaria 2.0

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Poootin set back Russia generations. He was an idiot to invade, but he thought it would be easy after Crimea.

Putin invades every time Biden is in the White House

 

[Ringo]

The Ukrainians got obliterated far from the Russian security line​