Debate Now Illegals and Social Security. Good thing? Bad thing?

[Ravi]

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Moving on to the basic spirit of the issue:

• Currently Illegals who work here with a fraudulant SS# are in essence paying an 'illegal worker tax'- they are essentially helping to support the Social Security system for the rest of us and will never see any benefit from the money they pay.
• The CRS report said that they 'may be eligible' to claim previous benefits- I think that it would be best to enact any plan so that they cannot- treat it like it was a tax for their illegal work status.
• Going forward- if they have their own SS#- sure, they should be able to pay into SS# and if they retire here, claim those benefits.

Thank you for returning to the basic premise of the OP. That is much appreciated.

There is the argument that what harm is there for the illegals to be paying into the social security system? Most especially if they will never draw social security (which of course is also now an issue as expressed in the OP.)

If they DO draw social security for the average length of time most SS recipients draw social security, most will draw out more than they pay in.

Then there is the issue of rewarding them for using a fraudulent card. If they are using your number they may be paying into your account, but at what price to you? If they are buying a house or taking out credit cards or violating the tax code using your social security number, what is that doing to your credit? Your reputation? Your opportunities?

And many are taking jobs that would have been offered to citizens or people here legally who would have been paying into the system using legitimate social security numbers.

I think that the issue of illegals taking jobs from legals here would be a distraction and would derail what I think is a good topic on SS. A valid topic on its own- but if pursued will just derail in this thread.

I think it is important to acknowledge that currently illegals who are getting paid above the table are helping pay Social Security for all of us legals. The reason to acknowledge this is to acknowledge that there may be a bias to keeping them in this status to provide additional tax revenue into the SS system that will never have to be paid out.

Regarding the use of a fraudulant SS#- I agree- that is why I think in essence illegals should forfeit those monies- but I think once they are paying into the system with their own SS#, then they should be eligible for Social Security benefits- but not for past payments with illegal use of a SS#.

If they are using a fraudulent SS#, they are committing fraud and will never collect legally. If they have managed to obtain a TIN, and are paying into the system that way, if and when they become legal citizens or legal immigrants, they can be credited for what they've paid into the system.

But it is against Federal law to allow illegal immigrants to collect SS and the EO does not change that law in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Foxfyre]

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Moving on to the basic spirit of the issue:

• Currently Illegals who work here with a fraudulant SS# are in essence paying an 'illegal worker tax'- they are essentially helping to support the Social Security system for the rest of us and will never see any benefit from the money they pay.
• The CRS report said that they 'may be eligible' to claim previous benefits- I think that it would be best to enact any plan so that they cannot- treat it like it was a tax for their illegal work status.
• Going forward- if they have their own SS#- sure, they should be able to pay into SS# and if they retire here, claim those benefits.

Thank you for returning to the basic premise of the OP. That is much appreciated.

There is the argument that what harm is there for the illegals to be paying into the social security system? Most especially if they will never draw social security (which of course is also now an issue as expressed in the OP.)

If they DO draw social security for the average length of time most SS recipients draw social security, most will draw out more than they pay in.

Then there is the issue of rewarding them for using a fraudulent card. If they are using your number they may be paying into your account, but at what price to you? If they are buying a house or taking out credit cards or violating the tax code using your social security number, what is that doing to your credit? Your reputation? Your opportunities?

And many are taking jobs that would have been offered to citizens or people here legally who would have been paying into the system using legitimate social security numbers.

I think that the issue of illegals taking jobs from legals here would be a distraction and would derail what I think is a good topic on SS. A valid topic on its own- but if pursued will just derail in this thread.

I think it is important to acknowledge that currently illegals who are getting paid above the table are helping pay Social Security for all of us legals. The reason to acknowledge this is to acknowledge that there may be a bias to keeping them in this status to provide additional tax revenue into the SS system that will never have to be paid out.

Regarding the use of a fraudulant SS#- I agree- that is why I think in essence illegals should forfeit those monies- but I think once they are paying into the system with their own SS#, then they should be eligible for Social Security benefits- but not for past payments with illegal use of a SS#.

If they are using a fraudulent SS#, they are committing fraud and will never collect legally. If they have managed to obtain a TIN, and are paying into the system that way, if and when they become legal citizens or legal immigrants, they can be credited for what they've paid into the system.

But it is against Federal law to allow illegal immigrants to collect SS and the EO does not change that law in any way, shape, or form.

According to the sources I have posted so far, they very well could receive credit for social security paid while using fraudulent numbers. I have found no authoritative credible source to dispute the sources posted and I have looked. Perhaps you have some you could offer? The Social Security law itself doesn't qualify since the thesis of the thread is that the President has circumvented that law via executive order.

 

[Derideo_Te]

You have to be a US citizen or a lawful immigrant to apply for social security benefits. So basically, the entire premise of this thread is ridiculous.

Is it?

Under President Obama’s new program to protect millions of illegal immigrants from deportation, many of those affected will be eligible to receive Social Security, Medicare and a wide array of other federal benefits, a White House official said Tuesday. . . .
Illegal immigrants could receive Social Security Medicare under Obama action - The Washington Post​

No idea who Tumulty is misquoting as she doesn't say. If they become eligible they can potentially receive benefits. To become eligible they must become citizens or lawful immigrants. The EO does not grant them either status. It simply says they will receive a reprieve from deportation for now.

The law as it is written would prohibit an illegal from drawing social security. But I'm not finding ANY reliable source that says that Obama didn't circumvent the intent of the law with his executive order .

Neither Obama nor anyone responding to the OP are required to prove a negative.

The onus is on the OP to prove that their allegation has substance.

The OP has just admitted that it doesn't because there is no credible link to support it.

Ergo this thread lacks merit per the OP's own admission.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The issue has nothing to do with anything being 'good' or 'bad.'

It is appropriate in the context of the right to due process and equal protection of the law to afford all persons in the United States the opportunity to apply for, and receive when warranted, any benefits they're eligible to receive pending a final determination of their immigration status.

The Constitution prohibits a 'presumption of guilt' policy where one must 'prove' he is innocent of an alleged crime and be summarily denied due process based upon that presumption.

 

[Foxfyre]

The issue has nothing to do with anything being 'good' or 'bad.'

It is appropriate in the context of the right to due process and equal protection of the law to afford all persons in the United States the opportunity to apply for, and receive when warranted, any benefits they're eligible to receive pending a final determination of their immigration status.

The Constitution prohibits a 'presumption of guilt' policy where one must 'prove' he is innocent of an alleged crime and be summarily denied due process based upon that presumption.

Are you arguing that anybody in the country illegally is entitled to a trial with jury before he/she can be deported? Do you think having no evidence of legal status is not sufficient for immigration authorities to determine illegal status?

 

[Derideo_Te]

The issue has nothing to do with anything being 'good' or 'bad.'

It is appropriate in the context of the right to due process and equal protection of the law to afford all persons in the United States the opportunity to apply for, and receive when warranted, any benefits they're eligible to receive pending a final determination of their immigration status.

The Constitution prohibits a 'presumption of guilt' policy where one must 'prove' he is innocent of an alleged crime and be summarily denied due process based upon that presumption.

Are you arguing that anybody in the country illegally is entitled to a trial with jury before he/she can be deported? Do you think having no evidence of legal status is not sufficient for immigration authorities to determine illegal status?

Everyone who falls under the jursidiction of the law of the land is entitled to the same Constitutional rights except those specifically reserved for citizens only such as voting and jury duty. This is social studies 101. The right to a trial has nothing to do with citizenship status. If someone is charged with being here illegally they are entitled to their day in court with an appointed legal representative if they cannot afford one just like everyone else.

Oh, and they are entitled to freedom of expression and to carry arms too since there is nothing in those rights limiting them to citizens only.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do you think having no evidence of legal status is not sufficient for immigration authorities to determine illegal status?

Do you carry your birth certificate with you at all times? Should everyone be forced to carry evidence of their citizenship or residence status at all times? Should law enforcement officers be able to stop anyone on the street and demand to see evidence of their "legal status"?

Arizona attempted to pass a law to that effect and it was struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. The presumption of innocence is the right of everyone who falls under the law of the land. Once again that is social studies 101.

 

[LoneLaugher]

One can't expect 'structured debate' when the OP contains factual errors.

The president's EO is not 'amnesty.'

One is not 'illegal' until found guilty in a court of law of entering the country absent authorization; all persons in the United States are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence.

Consequently, pending adjudication, those undocumented are entitled to apply for whatever programs they might be potentially eligible.

The solution to this issue is immigration reform, affording those undocumented due process to bring about a resolution to their immigration status.

When the President announces that he does not intend to enforce the existing immigration laws, what do you call that: amnesty? Or malfeasance in office?

Hmmmmm. I see this one going off topic.

 

[Shrimpbox]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

 

[Ravi]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

 

[Foxfyre]

Because you aren't working in immigration and aren't the holder of the SS number that is being used fraudulently?

I suspect Shrimpbox knows his stuff on this, but I don't know myself what the government will or will not tell you. I do know it is pretty much up to the taxpayer to report identity theft and they can't depend on the government to be proactive about that.

An identity thief might also use your Social Security number to file a tax return in order to receive a refund. If the thief files the tax return before you do, the IRS will believe you already filed and received your refund if eligible. If your Social Security number is stolen, another individual may use it to get a job. That person’s employer would report income earned to the IRS using your Social Security number, making it appear that you did not report all of your income on your tax return. If you think you may have tax issues because someone has stolen your identity, contact the IRS Identity Protection Unit at www.irs.gov/privacy/article/0,,id=186436,00.html or call 1-800-908-4490.​

Help Someone used my SSN to get a job ProtectMyID

The worst danger of somebody else using your social security number is they can use it to apply for credit cards in your name or otherwise use them in ways that could absolutely destroy your credit or put you into legal problems that are costly and difficult to straighten out. I have personally run across illegals using two, three, or four different social security numbers, none of which were their own. So maybe issuing illegals a 'legal' number would cut down on some of that, but there is still that part of me that thinks the law should be enforced, and giving illegals drivers licenses, social security numbers, etc. further legitimizes those who are in the country illegally. (I don't have a problem with making accommodations for those brought here illegally as children and who literally have no home country to return to.)

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

 

[Ravi]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

Criminal Enforcement

 

[Foxfyre]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

I believe the IRS as a law enforcement agency has at least as much power as the FBI.
Internal Revenue Manual - 9.1.2 Authority

And the SSA also has its own gun carrying investigation and enforcement division with full authority to arrest and prosecute:
Social Security s OIG Responds to Concerns over Ammunition Procurement Office of the Inspector General SSA

 

[Foxfyre]

To support Shrimpbox's statement that the Social Security Administration is now allowed to share information with other agencies, apparently they can IF the person is indicted and/or convicted of a serious crime. Apparently they can't share the information if the person is only being investigated for a crime. It is unlikely that breaking the immigration laws would qualify as a serious crime.
U.S. GAO - Social Security Administration Disclosure Policy for Law Enforcement Allows Information Sharing but SSA Needs to Ensure Consistent Application

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

Criminal Enforcement

The IRS criminal enforcement is highly focused.

Criminal Investigation (CI) At-a-Glance
Criminal Investigation (CI) serves the American public by investigating potential criminal violations of the Internal Revenue Code and related financial crimes in a manner that fosters confidence in the tax system and compliance with the law.

What Criminal Investigation Does
Some people bend the tax law -- others break it. Criminal Investigation's job is to pursue the lawbreakers.​

The IRS is not interested in whether or not someone is in this nation legally or not.

 

[Ravi]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

Criminal Enforcement

The IRS criminal enforcement is highly focused.

Criminal Investigation (CI) At-a-Glance
Criminal Investigation (CI) serves the American public by investigating potential criminal violations of the Internal Revenue Code and related financial crimes in a manner that fosters confidence in the tax system and compliance with the law.

What Criminal Investigation Does
Some people bend the tax law -- others break it. Criminal Investigation's job is to pursue the lawbreakers.​

The IRS is not interested in whether or not someone is in this nation legally or not.

You are correct, they don't care if someone is illegal or not. That's because even illegals by law are supposed to pay income taxes. The job of the IRS is to collect income taxes.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

Criminal Enforcement

The IRS criminal enforcement is highly focused.

Criminal Investigation (CI) At-a-Glance
Criminal Investigation (CI) serves the American public by investigating potential criminal violations of the Internal Revenue Code and related financial crimes in a manner that fosters confidence in the tax system and compliance with the law.

What Criminal Investigation Does
Some people bend the tax law -- others break it. Criminal Investigation's job is to pursue the lawbreakers.​

The IRS is not interested in whether or not someone is in this nation legally or not.

You didn't qualify your earlier argument as to whether the IRS is interested about illegals. You said it is not a law enforcement agency. You said the same thing about the Social Security administration. You were clearly in error on both counts.

And use of fraudulent social security numbers is tax fraud which would fall under the jurisdiction of the IRS as much as the SSA most especially when used to claim refunds not owed a person or to evade payment of taxes.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

I believe the IRS as a law enforcement agency has at least as much power as the FBI.
Internal Revenue Manual - 9.1.2 Authority

And the SSA also has its own gun carrying investigation and enforcement division with full authority to arrest and prosecute:
Social Security s OIG Responds to Concerns over Ammunition Procurement Office of the Inspector General SSA

The scope of the FBI is way broader than the IRS. The FBI's scope encompasses kidnapping, exploitation of minors and counter intelligence to name just a few examples. None of those would fall under the IRS.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies, or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

Can it get more stupid than this? Or do dems and big business want it this way?

Then why does my company get notified by the irs if someone uses an incorrect number?

The IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies. They need to exchange information to ensure that payments and taxes are completed correctly. If someone provides your company with an invalid SSN the IRS would not be able to calculate the taxes due and credit the appropriate SSA account.

Criminal Enforcement

The IRS criminal enforcement is highly focused.

Criminal Investigation (CI) At-a-Glance
Criminal Investigation (CI) serves the American public by investigating potential criminal violations of the Internal Revenue Code and related financial crimes in a manner that fosters confidence in the tax system and compliance with the law.

What Criminal Investigation Does
Some people bend the tax law -- others break it. Criminal Investigation's job is to pursue the lawbreakers.​

The IRS is not interested in whether or not someone is in this nation legally or not.

You didn't qualify your earlier argument as to whether the IRS is interested about illegals. You said it had no law enforcement authority. You said the same thing about the Social Security administration. You were clearly in error on both counts.

And use of fraudulent social security numbers is tax fraud which would fall under the jurisdiction of the IRS as much as the SSA.

To be precise I said that the IRS and SSA are not law enforcement agencies as per the original statement about the SSA being legally barred from sharing information with such agencies.

The IRS is charged with collecting taxes and the SSA is charged with administering social security as their primary missions.

The FBI, DEA, DOJ, ATF, Border Patrol, etc are law enforcement agencies since they are specifically tasked with dealing with violations of the law.

The FBI's scope includes white collar crimes such as fraudulent use of SSN's and it would include dealing with international tax fraud that would be outside the scope of the IRS.

There is a clear distinction between agencies tasked with law enforcement and agencies that are not tasked with law enforcement. If the EPA were to discover someone was illegally mining on government land they would contact the appropriate law enforcement agency rather than try to shut them down for a violation of a pollution regulation.