Zone1 I'm Having An Issue With A Part Of The Bible

[there4eyeM]

All reference to the ultimate can only, at best, be metaphor.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Jesus only gave us two commandments. They are not that hard to understand. The problem is people ransacking the OT looking for exceptions.

far from true but I know you are an obstinate person so.. outa here

 

[notmyfault2020]

I feel calling any religion a false religion is out of line. St. Teresa was spot on when she noted that the Church is only the foyer for believers and there are many other levels in what she calls The Interior Castle that we generally are left to explore mostly on our own.

The question for all of us is, Has our religion/church drawn us closer to God? The Catholic faith reaches me, but it does not reach all. Protestant and LDS denominations do nothing for me, it appears a certainty they do something for those of that faith/denomination. It also seems you must have the Catholic Church behave in the pre-Vatican way before it can reach/touch you.

so it's out of line to speak the Truth? Even if you argue that the truth in question is my own subjective truth.. I have a right to say it.. Yes, I know "out of line" does not equate to "no right to say" but in any case..

I don't think that (highlighted) is the right question AT ALL

Because everyone creates God in his own image, yours truly included (in the past, mostly). We rationalize away our sins and yet... they are only "put away" when they are put out of our minds, not necessarily put out of GOD's..

So your point here is that a person's subjective ideas on God are sufficient. But that is not so. God does not change. He has no need of changing. It is we who must change in order to enter Heaven. And btw I don't recall St Teresa of Avila saying that the Church is ... implying, rather.. that the Church is.. .what? Just some temporary thing on our way to the real stuff.. I know that's probably not what you intended to imply (or was it?) but the Church is permanent on Earth. Only through the Church is anyone saved. Even protestantism came by way of the Catholic Church and anyone who is saved is saved through and by Christ's original Church.

 

[Road Runner]

I think it's fine if you're struggling with some Bible passages. To blame the Word for not "wording things in a different way" to suit YOU is....wow.

Now hold on a second, I'm not the only Christian who has spoken out about how over time Jesus' original point was lost in translation. Jesus spoke in parables so I guess I can't really blame Him for not being straightforward, (not like I was ever blaming Him just questioning Him is all) but we also don't know exactly what He actually said since He didn't even speak English, (not saying He can't just that He didn't through His life on earth due to where He was from unless He visited English speaking countries and it just wasn't written about in the Bible) we just know the general idea of it.

 

[SweetSue92]

Now hold on a second, I'm not the only Christian who has spoken out about how over time Jesus' original point was lost in translation. Jesus spoke in parables so I guess I can't really blame Him for not being straightforward, (not like I was ever blaming Him just questioning Him is all) but we also don't know exactly what He actually said since He didn't even speak English, (not saying He can't just that He didn't through His life on earth due to where He was from unless He visited English speaking countries and it just wasn't written about in the Bible) we just know the general idea of it.

If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, you believe he sustained it. That's for starters.

Jesus spoke in parables in part to "separate the wheat from the chaff". He often said, "those with ears to hear, let them hear". It was done ON PURPOSE.

Do you believe it is impossible to know what is said in other languages--that all translations fail? Or what?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Otherwise, why would He have eaten with sinners?

The label "sinner" is what WE applied to those whom He ate with.

They were NOT SINNERS.

They were REPENTANT SINNERS. They GAVE UP THEIR SINS to follow Him.

Jesus is NOT a "friend to sinners.'

 

[Carl in Michigan]

far from true but I know you are an obstinate person so.. outa here

Yep. "The "2 commandments " He gave, were actually a summation of the Ten Commandments.

I feel calling any religion a false religion is out of line

thats an issue you'll have to repent of

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Protestantism is a religion without a Cross

Your opening statement is a damn lie, and I'm not even Protestant

 

[Carl in Michigan]

He's the one who said that He calls His followers friends not me. I was only repeating the message. I know He is sinless and holy but that doesn't mean He never made a sinless mistake of wording things in a different way so that we don't understand what He's talking about. Unless the Bible translators made the mistake that is.

He didn't make any mistakes.

The only problem is in you not understanding due to your own disobedience.

 

[SweetSue92]

The label "sinner" is what WE applied to those whom He ate with.

They were NOT SINNERS.

They were REPENTANT SINNERS. They GAVE UP THEIR SINS to follow Him.

Jesus is NOT a "friend to sinners.'

Except Peter denied Him three times....after following Him for three years.

Your "Christians never sin" doctrine is rejected.

 

[Red Front]

John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus says routinely, "those with ears to hear, let them hear."

I think it's fine if you're struggling with some Bible passages. To blame the Word for not "wording things in a different way" to suit YOU is....wow.

In greek, it actually says "a god" or "the Word was divine". That's not the same as saying the Word is coequal with the Heavenly Father, who is The God the Logos was with.

 

[Clyde 154]

In greek, it actually says "a god" or "the Word was divine". That's not the same as saying the Word is coequal with the Heavenly Father, who is The God the Logos was with.

Why Choke on gnat while swallowing a Camel? The same passage describes the WORD as being God, regardless of how you might cheery pick a meaning out of your kyster......the passage self interprets, ".........the word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1).

The same Greek Language is used when the Apostle of Christ clearly declares that Jesus is EQUAL with God, as part of the Godhead.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD..............................." Philippians 2:5-9

 

[Red Front]

Why Choke on gnat while swallowing a Camel? The same passage describes the WORD as being God, regardless of how you might cheery pick a meaning out of your kyster......the passage self interprets, ".........the word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1).

The same Greek Language is used when the Apostle of Christ clearly declares that Jesus is EQUAL with God, as part of the Godhead.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD..............................." Philippians 2:5-9

6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, 7 ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος· καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος....

"Who, being [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], thought it not robbery [harpagmos] to be equal [ison] with God. But ... took upon him the form [morphe] of a servant, and was made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men: And being found in fashion [schemati] as a man...." - Phil. 2:6-8, KJV.

"Who, although He existed [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], did not regard equality [ison] with God a thing to be grasped [harpagmos], but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphe] of a bond-servant and being made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men. And being found in appearance [schemati] as a man...." - Phil. 2:6-8, NASB.

Some Trinitarians insist that this scripture proves that Jesus was (and is) "equal with God." But the evidence proves just the opposite! Phil. 2:6 is, in reality, proof that Jesus has never been equally God with the Father! The archangel was in the morphe or immortal form of an angel. Angels are identified in the Bible as "gods" or elohim:

(Ps 8:5) You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones [Heb: elohim], And with glory and splendor you then crowned him.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 8:5 Thou madest him a little less than angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour;

The author of Hebrews confirmed this was a correct translation when he quoted it. (Heb 2:7,9) You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

(De 32:43) Be glad, you nations, with his people, For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And he will pay back vengeance to his adversaries And will indeed make atonement for the ground of his people."

New Revised Standard: Deuteronomy 32:43 Praise, O heavens, his people, worship him, all you gods! For he will avenge the blood of his children, and take vengeance on his adversaries; he will repay those who hate him, and cleanse the land for his people.

Brenton's LXX: Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Once again, the author of Hebrews confirmed this understanding when he quoted it at Hebrews 1:6: (Heb 1:6) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

(Ps 97:7) Let all those serving any carved image be ashamed, Those who are making their boast in valueless gods. Bow down to him, all you gods.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 96:7 Let all that worship graven images be ashamed, who boast of their idols; worship him, all ye his angels.

(Ps 138:1) I shall laud you with all my heart. In front of other gods I shall make melody to you.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 137:1 I will give thee thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; and I will sing psalms to thee before the angels; for thou hast heard all the words of my mouth.

(De 10:17) For YHWH your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe,

(Ps 136:2) Give thanks to the God of the gods: For his loving-kindness is to time indefinite;

Origen quoted Psalm 136:2 and gave the following commentary. Note the understanding of "gods:" God on the one hand is Very God (Autotheos, God of himself); and so the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply God (or, god, without the article), but rather God (or, God, with the article). And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord [YHWH], hath spoken and called the earth." [Ps. 136:2] It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for they drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to his own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God," and those who are formed after him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype." -Origen, Commentary on John, Ante Nicene Fathers 10, Book 2, p. 323.

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Angels in the Class of Gods

(Ge 6:2,4) then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. 4 The Neph'i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

(Job 1:6) Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before YHWH, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

New Revised Standard: Job 1:6 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Brenton's LXX: Job 1:6 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them.

(Job 2:1) Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before YHWH, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before YHWH.

New Revised Standard: Job 2:1 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

Marvin Hope, Job (1965): Job 2:1 The day arrived when the gods come and present themselves before Yahweh.

Brenton's LXX: Job 2:1 And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord.

(Job 38:7) When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

New Revised Standard: Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

Brenton's LXX: Job 38:7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice.

Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: "(individual) divine beings, gods." And page 51 says: "the (single) gods," and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, by H. W. F. Gesenius, trans. A. E. Crowley (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1910), 418, sec. 128, V, says: "There is another use of ben [son] or beney [sons of] to denote membership in a guild or society (or of a tribe, and any definite class). Thus beney ha-elohim [sons of (the) God] Gn 6:2, 3, Jb 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 ... properly means not sons of god(s), but beings of the class of elohim [God]."

The Sons of (the) Gods(s), by Gerald Cooke, AW 76 (1964), 36, concludes: "the 'sons of (the) God(s)' are to be understood without question as lesser divine beings."

BDB Hebrew Lexicon, page 43, says: (the) sons of God, or sons of gods = angels Jb 1(6) 2(1) 38(7) Gn 6(2,4)

Support from the New Testament

Jude 6,7: And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod'om and Go·mor'rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

2 Peter 2:4,5: Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar'ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;

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Rulers, Judges

(Ex 21:6) then his master must bring him near to the [true] God and must bring him up against the door or the doorpost; and his master must pierce his ear through with an awl, and he must be his slave to time indefinite

(Ex 22:7,8) "In case a man should give his fellow money or articles to keep, and it gets stolen from the man's house, if the thief should be found, he is to make double compensation. 8 If the thief should not be found, then the owner of the house must be brought near to the [true] God to see whether he did not put his hand upon the goods of his fellow.

(Ps 82:1,6) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges: 6 "I myself have said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Jesus quoted in John 10:34,35: Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods"'? 35 If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,

BDB Hebrew Lexicon, page 43, says: rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.



IN CONCLUSION...


They are divine because they're both immortal and in the service of YHWH their Father and Creator. All that Phil 2:6 is saying is that the Archangel didn't remain divine or like God in His luminous immortal form, but rather humbled himself incarnating in the form of a mortal human being. He is truly the only begotten god or angel, and it is through Him that humanity rises from death to life. That's what the Bible teaches, not what you're asserting.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Except Peter denied Him three times....after following Him for three years.

Your "Christians never sin" doctrine is rejected.

I DIDNT SAY CHRISTIANS NEVER SIN DID I?

I SAID THEY WERE REPENTANT SINNERS

Does repeating myself in CAPS help?

Do you understand going thru life in a REPENTANT attitude?.

 

[SweetSue92]

I DIDNT SAY CHRISTIANS NEVER SIN DID I?

I SAID THEY WERE REPENTANT SINNERS

Does repeating myself in CAPS help?

Do you understand going thru life in a REPENTANT attitude?.

Fair enough. There are some who deny that they ever sin....I thought that was your position.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, 7 ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος· καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος....

"Who, being [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], thought it not robbery [harpagmos] to be equal [ison] with God. But ... took upon him the form [morphe] of a servant, and was made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men: And being found in fashion [schemati] as a man...." - Phil. 2:6-8, KJV.

"Who, although He existed [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], did not regard equality [ison] with God a thing to be grasped [harpagmos], but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphe] of a bond-servant and being made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men. And being found in appearance [schemati] as a man...." - Phil. 2:6-8, NASB.

Some Trinitarians insist that this scripture proves that Jesus was (and is) "equal with God." But the evidence proves just the opposite! Phil. 2:6 is, in reality, proof that Jesus has never been equally God with the Father! The archangel was in the morphe or immortal form of an angel. Angels are identified in the Bible as "gods" or elohim:

(Ps 8:5) You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones [Heb: elohim], And with glory and splendor you then crowned him.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 8:5 Thou madest him a little less than angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour;

The author of Hebrews confirmed this was a correct translation when he quoted it. (Heb 2:7,9) You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

(De 32:43) Be glad, you nations, with his people, For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And he will pay back vengeance to his adversaries And will indeed make atonement for the ground of his people."

New Revised Standard: Deuteronomy 32:43 Praise, O heavens, his people, worship him, all you gods! For he will avenge the blood of his children, and take vengeance on his adversaries; he will repay those who hate him, and cleanse the land for his people.

Brenton's LXX: Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Once again, the author of Hebrews confirmed this understanding when he quoted it at Hebrews 1:6: (Heb 1:6) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

(Ps 97:7) Let all those serving any carved image be ashamed, Those who are making their boast in valueless gods. Bow down to him, all you gods.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 96:7 Let all that worship graven images be ashamed, who boast of their idols; worship him, all ye his angels.

(Ps 138:1) I shall laud you with all my heart. In front of other gods I shall make melody to you.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 137:1 I will give thee thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; and I will sing psalms to thee before the angels; for thou hast heard all the words of my mouth.

(De 10:17) For YHWH your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe,

(Ps 136:2) Give thanks to the God of the gods: For his loving-kindness is to time indefinite;

Origen quoted Psalm 136:2 and gave the following commentary. Note the understanding of "gods:" God on the one hand is Very God (Autotheos, God of himself); and so the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply God (or, god, without the article), but rather God (or, God, with the article). And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord [YHWH], hath spoken and called the earth." [Ps. 136:2] It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for they drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to his own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God," and those who are formed after him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype." -Origen, Commentary on John, Ante Nicene Fathers 10, Book 2, p. 323.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Angels in the Class of Gods

(Ge 6:2,4) then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. 4 The Neph'i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

(Job 1:6) Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before YHWH, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

New Revised Standard: Job 1:6 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Brenton's LXX: Job 1:6 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them.

(Job 2:1) Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before YHWH, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before YHWH.

New Revised Standard: Job 2:1 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

Marvin Hope, Job (1965): Job 2:1 The day arrived when the gods come and present themselves before Yahweh.

Brenton's LXX: Job 2:1 And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord.

(Job 38:7) When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

New Revised Standard: Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

Brenton's LXX: Job 38:7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice.

Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: "(individual) divine beings, gods." And page 51 says: "the (single) gods," and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, by H. W. F. Gesenius, trans. A. E. Crowley (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1910), 418, sec. 128, V, says: "There is another use of ben [son] or beney [sons of] to denote membership in a guild or society (or of a tribe, and any definite class). Thus beney ha-elohim [sons of (the) God] Gn 6:2, 3, Jb 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 ... properly means not sons of god(s), but beings of the class of elohim [God]."

The Sons of (the) Gods(s), by Gerald Cooke, AW 76 (1964), 36, concludes: "the 'sons of (the) God(s)' are to be understood without question as lesser divine beings."

BDB Hebrew Lexicon, page 43, says: (the) sons of God, or sons of gods = angels Jb 1(6) 2(1) 38(7) Gn 6(2,4)

Support from the New Testament

Jude 6,7: And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod'om and Go·mor'rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

2 Peter 2:4,5: Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar'ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rulers, Judges

(Ex 21:6) then his master must bring him near to the [true] God and must bring him up against the door or the doorpost; and his master must pierce his ear through with an awl, and he must be his slave to time indefinite

(Ex 22:7,8) "In case a man should give his fellow money or articles to keep, and it gets stolen from the man's house, if the thief should be found, he is to make double compensation. 8 If the thief should not be found, then the owner of the house must be brought near to the [true] God to see whether he did not put his hand upon the goods of his fellow.

(Ps 82:1,6) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges: 6 "I myself have said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Jesus quoted in John 10:34,35: Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods"'? 35 If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,

BDB Hebrew Lexicon, page 43, says: rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.



IN CONCLUSION...


They are divine because they're both immortal and in the service of YHWH their Father and Creator. All that Phil 2:6 is saying is that the Archangel didn't remain divine or like God in His luminous immortal form, but rather humbled himself incarnating in the form of a mortal human being. He is truly the only begotten god or angel, and it is through Him that humanity rises from death to life. That's what the Bible teaches, not what you're asserting.

Ever learning yet never able to come to the knowledge of God

 

[Red Front]

Ever learning yet never able to come to the knowledge of God

Your remark isn't a refutation of the Biblical evidence I presented.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Your remark isn't a refutation of the Biblical evidence I presented.

The Angeles were MADE -- a little higher than Man. That doesn't make them the equal with GOD. The LOGOS was with God for all eternity. Only God exists eternally

 

[Red Front]

The Angeles were MADE -- a little higher than Man. That doesn't make them the equal with GOD. The LOGOS was with God for all eternity. Only God exists eternally

Your credal statement doesn't prove anything. So far you haven't presented any Biblical evidence for what you're claiming, hence go ahead and do that. Even though the heavenly holy spirits (angels are spirits and holy, if they're in YHWH's kingdom, hence they're "holy spirits"), are indeed created nonetheless they're divine, and immortal, bearing the presence and glory of Almighty God, their heavenly Father. There is no co-equality with the heavenly Father, and that includes Jesus. You haven't presented any Biblical evidence for Jesus being co-equal, co-eternal or consubstantial with YHWH, His heavenly Father. Go ahead now, and present us with your evidence. Let's take a look at it.

 

[LibertyKid]

On one hand I understand what Jesus is saying when He says that all those that are His friends will obey His commandments, but on the other hand imagine if Jesus wasn't the Son of God and He was just a regular person. I'm not saying that He wasn't human, but imagine that He wasn't the Lord and just somebody else speaking to you like that and then follows it up with He doesn't call us servants but yet still says that we need to obey His orders if we want to be friends with Him. Wouldn't that be a tad bit messed up? If He wasn't the Lord of all creation I don't think I would be interested in a friendship like that.

From the perspective of the NT, the disciples were not only witnesses to the words of Jesus, but also his actions (miracles, etc.,)

If Tradition is true, all the disciples died a martyrs death (but John). Would you die for a lie? It means something. Look at Paul and his experience that transformed his life as a Roman citizen and his conversion to Christianity as the worst thing he could do for his career. It means something.