Zone1 I'm Having An Issue With A Part Of The Bible

[Meriweather]

thats an issue you'll have to repent of

Why?

 

[Clyde 154]

6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, 7 ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος· καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος....

"Who, being [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], thought it not robbery [harpagmos] to be equal [ison] with God. But ... took upon him the form [morphe] of a servant, and was made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men: And being found in fashion [schemati] as a man...." - Phil. 2:6-8, KJV.

"Who, although He existed [huparchon] in the form [morphe] of God [theou], did not regard equality [ison] with God a thing to be grasped [harpagmos], but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphe] of a bond-servant and being made in the likeness [homoiomati] of men. And being found in appearance [schemati] as a man...." - Phil. 2:6-8, NASB.

Some Trinitarians insist that this scripture proves that Jesus was (and is) "equal with God." But the evidence proves just the opposite! Phil. 2:6 is, in reality, proof that Jesus has never been equally God with the Father! The archangel was in the morphe or immortal form of an angel. Angels are identified in the Bible as "gods" or elohim:

(Ps 8:5) You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones [Heb: elohim], And with glory and splendor you then crowned him.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 8:5 Thou madest him a little less than angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour;

The author of Hebrews confirmed this was a correct translation when he quoted it. (Heb 2:7,9) You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God's undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

(De 32:43) Be glad, you nations, with his people, For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And he will pay back vengeance to his adversaries And will indeed make atonement for the ground of his people."

New Revised Standard: Deuteronomy 32:43 Praise, O heavens, his people, worship him, all you gods! For he will avenge the blood of his children, and take vengeance on his adversaries; he will repay those who hate him, and cleanse the land for his people.

Brenton's LXX: Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

Once again, the author of Hebrews confirmed this understanding when he quoted it at Hebrews 1:6: (Heb 1:6) But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

(Ps 97:7) Let all those serving any carved image be ashamed, Those who are making their boast in valueless gods. Bow down to him, all you gods.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 96:7 Let all that worship graven images be ashamed, who boast of their idols; worship him, all ye his angels.

(Ps 138:1) I shall laud you with all my heart. In front of other gods I shall make melody to you.

Brenton's LXX: Psalm 137:1 I will give thee thanks, O Lord, with my whole heart; and I will sing psalms to thee before the angels; for thou hast heard all the words of my mouth.

(De 10:17) For YHWH your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe,

(Ps 136:2) Give thanks to the God of the gods: For his loving-kindness is to time indefinite;

Origen quoted Psalm 136:2 and gave the following commentary. Note the understanding of "gods:" God on the one hand is Very God (Autotheos, God of himself); and so the Savior says in His prayer to the Father, "That they may know Thee the only true God;" but that all beyond the Very God is made God by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply God (or, god, without the article), but rather God (or, God, with the article). And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, "The God of gods, the Lord [YHWH], hath spoken and called the earth." [Ps. 136:2] It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for they drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to his own bounty. The true God, then, is "The God," and those who are formed after him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype." -Origen, Commentary on John, Ante Nicene Fathers 10, Book 2, p. 323.

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Angels in the Class of Gods

(Ge 6:2,4) then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. 4 The Neph'i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

(Job 1:6) Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before YHWH, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

New Revised Standard: Job 1:6 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Brenton's LXX: Job 1:6 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them.

(Job 2:1) Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before YHWH, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before YHWH.

New Revised Standard: Job 2:1 One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

Marvin Hope, Job (1965): Job 2:1 The day arrived when the gods come and present themselves before Yahweh.

Brenton's LXX: Job 2:1 And it came to pass on a certain day, that the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came among them to stand before the Lord.

(Job 38:7) When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

New Revised Standard: Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

Brenton's LXX: Job 38:7 When the stars were made, all my angels praised me with a loud voice.

Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by Koehler and Baumgartner (1958), page 134, says: "(individual) divine beings, gods." And page 51 says: "the (single) gods," and it cites Genesis 6:2; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.

Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar, by H. W. F. Gesenius, trans. A. E. Crowley (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1910), 418, sec. 128, V, says: "There is another use of ben [son] or beney [sons of] to denote membership in a guild or society (or of a tribe, and any definite class). Thus beney ha-elohim [sons of (the) God] Gn 6:2, 3, Jb 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 ... properly means not sons of god(s), but beings of the class of elohim [God]."

The Sons of (the) Gods(s), by Gerald Cooke, AW 76 (1964), 36, concludes: "the 'sons of (the) God(s)' are to be understood without question as lesser divine beings."

BDB Hebrew Lexicon, page 43, says: (the) sons of God, or sons of gods = angels Jb 1(6) 2(1) 38(7) Gn 6(2,4)

Support from the New Testament

Jude 6,7: And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod'om and Go·mor'rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

2 Peter 2:4,5: Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar'ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;

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Rulers, Judges

(Ex 21:6) then his master must bring him near to the [true] God and must bring him up against the door or the doorpost; and his master must pierce his ear through with an awl, and he must be his slave to time indefinite

(Ex 22:7,8) "In case a man should give his fellow money or articles to keep, and it gets stolen from the man's house, if the thief should be found, he is to make double compensation. 8 If the thief should not be found, then the owner of the house must be brought near to the [true] God to see whether he did not put his hand upon the goods of his fellow.

(Ps 82:1,6) God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges: 6 "I myself have said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Jesus quoted in John 10:34,35: Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods"'? 35 If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,

BDB Hebrew Lexicon, page 43, says: rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.



IN CONCLUSION...


They are divine because they're both immortal and in the service of YHWH their Father and Creator. All that Phil 2:6 is saying is that the Archangel didn't remain divine or like God in His luminous immortal form, but rather humbled himself incarnating in the form of a mortal human being. He is truly the only begotten god or angel, and it is through Him that humanity rises from death to life. That's what the Bible teaches, not what you're asserting.

Fact: All throughout the Holy Scriptures (the canon of the N.T.) there are but 2 examples of an angel having a NAME, and Phil. 2:6 is not one of the 2 examples (Jude 9, Luke 1:19). To even pretend angels are directly named and are to be worshiped by men is absurd. You must ADD information that does not exist in the N.T. canon, along with adding such you invoke a curse from God, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book; if any man shall add unto these things; God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book......." -- Rev. 22:18

Angels are not to be worshiped, angels are messengers, servants (Heb.2:2)......thus, the Christ (Jesus) could not be an angel, Jesus described Himself existing as "I AM" even before Abraham. (John 8:58........Exodus 3:14). Strange is it not how both the Son and the Father describe themselves as I AM?

You cherry pick passages and misrepresent the content by taking away the contextual integrity of the subject matter. Example you present (John 10:34-35) and pretend that Jesus is saying that all men can become gods...when Jesus actually was pointing that in the LAWS OF THE JEWS (not in the Laws of God) but the laws of the Jews was giving them an excuse to persecute Jesus and claim He was blaspheming because He worked on the Sabbath..........and they did this not not because Jesus worked on the Sabbath but because of what Jesus declared in descripbing Himself, "I and the Father are One...." (John 10:30,36.....meaning that Jesus being the Son of God was God. And the Jews knew that He was claiming to be God, for the Son carries the title of the Father.

Its written out in clear unambigous text as to why the Jews were attacking Jesus......and it has nothing to do with all men being gods. "AND THE JEWS ANSWERED HIM (Jesus), It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you (Jesus), but for blasphemy, because you (Jesus) being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." -- John 10: 33


There you have it in a nutshell..............EVEN THE JEWS KNEW AND COMPREHENDED THAT JESUS WAS CLAIMING TO BE GOD INCARNATE AS THE SON OF GOD. But you 2000 years removed from the drafting of this canon.....declare the opposite, that Jesus was not claiming to be God..but an ARCH ANGEL? Really? LMAO

Facts concerning angels. Angels are spirit beings, sent by God to service His message to mankind (Heb. 1:14). Angels were created at the same time as when all of creation came into existence (Col. 1:16-17, Ps. 148:2-5). Angels are of a higher rank in God's hierarchy than mankind (Ps. 8:4-5).

Most importantly........ANGELS ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPED, THEY ARE FELLOW SERVANTS ALONG WITH MAN TO WORSHIP AND SERVE GOD (Revelation 19:10).

Jesus openly accepted worship while being in the form of THE SON OF MAN (i.e., in the flesh)

Examples: Magi, while Jesus was in the crib He was worshiped as a new born.....He was worshiped by man (Matt. 2:11, Matt. 21:19, John 12:13). "Truly You (Jesus) are the SON OF GOD (meaning equal to God)".......He was worshiped as such (Matt.14:33). Examples of some of the women worshiping Jesus in the flesh (Matt. 28:8-9, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10).

The list goes on and on..........Yet, the Bible declares that Angels are not to be worshiped.

More important Question? How many wives do you think is authorized without engaing in Sin? Your problem......you have a history actual that Ray Charles could find......a history that proves you invoke false doctrines........and Ray Charles is dead and BLIND. Of course being a communist..........you are well versed in the actual canon of the Holy Bible.

Christianity promotes anything but Communism, in fact as a Christian you are declared an "infidel" if you do not work to provide and defend your family first and foremost -- 2 Thes. 3:10, 1 Tim. 5:8 No "income redistribution" here..........if 10% is good enough for God, its good enough for BIG BROTHER. The quest for SOCIAL JUSTICE was responsible for killing over 100 million in the last century alone.

 

[Road Runner]

Do you believe it is impossible to know what is said in other languages--that all translations fail? Or what?

Unless you speak Hebrew or whatever language Jesus spoke when He was still living His life on earth then we can only get a basic idea of what He was talking about since our languages are different.

He didn't make any mistakes.

The Bible never says that. It just says He was sinless. You don't know if He ever misspelled a word or lost something that He was looking for because last time I checked those aren't sinful mistakes.


For the record, He also very well might have accidentally said one thing when He meant something else entirely. That doesn't involve sin, that just means that He was also human. We just know that He just never made mistakes like lying and talking back to His parents and stuff like that.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Now hold on a second, I'm not the only Christian who has spoken out about how over time Jesus' original point was lost in translation. Jesus spoke in parables so I guess I can't really blame Him for not being straightforward, (not like I was ever blaming Him just questioning Him is all) but we also don't know exactly what He actually said since He didn't even speak English, (not saying He can't just that He didn't through His life on earth due to where He was from unless He visited English speaking countries and it just wasn't written about in the Bible) we just know the general idea of it.

His Church learned English// The Bible was first translated by one of His Servants St Jerome (first from Hebrew/Aramaic into Latin by him, then later from Latin into English) into what is now called the Douay Rheims Bible, most reliable version in the world.

 

[notmyfault2020]

For the record, He also very well might have accidentally said one thing when He meant something else entirely. That doesn't involve sin, that just means that He was also human. We just know that He just never made mistakes like lying and talking back to His parents and stuff like that.

Everything in life comes down to one thing (I often say to myself): TRUST

I am someone who trusts NO ONE.. no human being. But I trust Jesus.

And Jesus said that His Church would not fail (Mt 16:18). I believe Him. The Church He began began in the beginning, not surprisingly. The only Church (and there is only ONE) that goes back to the Beginning is the Catholic Church, first called such at least as early as 107 AD (ancient writings tell us).

For some reason this person, yours truly, who cannot trust anyone at all (and who can?) trusts the Catholic Church. That alone is "telling." But I could go on all day as to why I trust the RCC.

Please note that I am NOT, absolutely NOT referring to the Vatican sect of Francis, now occupying illicitly the Vatican buildings in Rome... That is a fake "church" that was taken over by groups who are and have been actively attempting to destroy the Church Christ founded... (which endeavor / act [1960s..] is not surprising at all in light of how utterly sinful and corrupt all of humanity is.. Maybe it's a true miracle it didn't happen b4 the 60s)

 

[notmyfault2020]

Your opening statement is a damn lie, and I'm not even Protestant

I've noticed a lot of Protestants resent being called such... What's that all about?

don't like the truth?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I've noticed a lot of Protestants resent being called such... What's that all about?

don't like the truth?

Like I said, I'm not PROTESTANT.

To put it more plainly, I don't follow any daughters of the Great Whore -- Roman Catholicism
But Protestants do look to the cross, while you pray to your dead saints

 

[Red Front]

Fact: All throughout the Holy Scriptures (the canon of the N.T.) there are but 2 examples of an angel having a NAME, and Phil. 2:6 is not one of the 2 examples (Jude 9, Luke 1:19). To even pretend angels are directly named and are to be worshiped by men is absurd. You must ADD information that does not exist in the N.T. canon, along with adding such you invoke a curse from God, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book; if any man shall add unto these things; God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book......." -- Rev. 22:18

Angels are not to be worshiped, angels are messengers, servants (Heb.2:2)......thus, the Christ (Jesus) could not be an angel, Jesus described Himself existing as "I AM" even before Abraham. (John 8:58........Exodus 3:14). Strange is it not how both the Son and the Father describe themselves as I AM?

You cherry pick passages and misrepresent the content by taking away the contextual integrity of the subject matter. Example you present (John 10:34-35) and pretend that Jesus is saying that all men can become gods...when Jesus actually was pointing that in the LAWS OF THE JEWS (not in the Laws of God) but the laws of the Jews was giving them an excuse to persecute Jesus and claim He was blaspheming because He worked on the Sabbath..........and they did this not not because Jesus worked on the Sabbath but because of what Jesus declared in descripbing Himself, "I and the Father are One...." (John 10:30,36.....meaning that Jesus being the Son of God was God. And the Jews knew that He was claiming to be God, for the Son carries the title of the Father.

Its written out in clear unambigous text as to why the Jews were attacking Jesus......and it has nothing to do with all men being gods. "AND THE JEWS ANSWERED HIM (Jesus), It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you (Jesus), but for blasphemy, because you (Jesus) being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." -- John 10: 33


There you have it in a nutshell..............EVEN THE JEWS KNEW AND COMPREHENDED THAT JESUS WAS CLAIMING TO BE GOD INCARNATE AS THE SON OF GOD. But you 2000 years removed from the drafting of this canon.....declare the opposite, that Jesus was not claiming to be God..but an ARCH ANGEL? Really? LMAO

Facts concerning angels. Angels are spirit beings, sent by God to service His message to mankind (Heb. 1:14). Angels were created at the same time as when all of creation came into existence (Col. 1:16-17, Ps. 148:2-5). Angels are of a higher rank in God's hierarchy than mankind (Ps. 8:4-5).

Most importantly........ANGELS ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPED, THEY ARE FELLOW SERVANTS ALONG WITH MAN TO WORSHIP AND SERVE GOD (Revelation 19:10).

Jesus openly accepted worship while being in the form of THE SON OF MAN (i.e., in the flesh)

Examples: Magi, while Jesus was in the crib He was worshiped as a new born.....He was worshiped by man (Matt. 2:11, Matt. 21:19, John 12:13). "Truly You (Jesus) are the SON OF GOD (meaning equal to God)".......He was worshiped as such (Matt.14:33). Examples of some of the women worshiping Jesus in the flesh (Matt. 28:8-9, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10).

The list goes on and on..........Yet, the Bible declares that Angels are not to be worshiped.

More important Question? How many wives do you think is authorized without engaing in Sin? Your problem......you have a history actual that Ray Charles could find......a history that proves you invoke false doctrines........and Ray Charles is dead and BLIND. Of course being a communist..........you are well versed in the actual canon of the Holy Bible.

Christianity promotes anything but Communism, in fact as a Christian you are declared an "infidel" if you do not work to provide and defend your family first and foremost -- 2 Thes. 3:10, 1 Tim. 5:8 No "income redistribution" here..........if 10% is good enough for God, its good enough for BIG BROTHER. The quest for SOCIAL JUSTICE was responsible for killing over 100 million in the last century alone.

Clyde writes:

Fact: All throughout the Holy Scriptures (the canon of the N.T.) there are but 2 examples of an angel having a NAME, and Phil. 2:6 is not one of the 2 examples (Jude 9, Luke 1:19).


Response:

In Phil 2:6 we're reading an account of the Archangel emptying himself of His immortal "morphe" or divine form and adopting the lowly body of a mortal man, subject to corruption, disease, and death. The only heavenly spirit who was willing to descend into this fallen world and pay the ransom for mankind was Him, the Archangel, and Son of YHWH. It's because of His life, death, and resurrection, that all of humanity will one day rise from the grave and have their day in court. Without Yeshua, every human being would remain dead in their grave, without recourse or redemption.


Clyde writes:

To even pretend angels are directly named and are to be worshiped by men is absurd.


Response:

It might seem absurd to you but it's nonetheless true. There are angels and human beings mentioned in the Bible who were worshiped, in virtue of their divine position of authority, given to them by YHWH our heavenly Father.



Clyde writes:


You must ADD information that does not exist in the N.T. canon....



Response:

This information is in both the Hebrew and Christian NT scriptures.



Clyde writes:

along with adding such you invoke a curse from God, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book; if any man shall add unto these things; God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book......." -- Rev. 22:18



Response:

The book mentioned in the above verse is the book of revelation, not the whole Bible. However, despite of that fact, that doesn't imply that we should add to God's word or distort it in any way.



Clyde writes:
Angels are not to be worshiped, angels are messengers, servants (Heb.2:2)......thus, the Christ (Jesus) could not be an angel,



Response:

As I showed in an earlier post with plenty of Biblical references, the angels of YHWH's kingdom are holy spirits that are identified as gods/divine beings. Both holy spirits i.e. angels and men like King David and Yeshua our Messiah, were worshipped.



Clyde writes:

Jesus described Himself existing as "I AM" even before Abraham. (John 8:58........Exodus 3:14). Strange is it not how both the Son and the Father describe themselves as I AM?



Response:

They don't. Jesus was simply telling the Pharisees that he existed before Abraham as the Archangel. They tried to kill him for making himself superior to Abraham. The mob did the same thing to Stephen for the same reason. He was accused of blasphemy against a prophet.



Clyde writes:

You cherry pick passages and misrepresent the content by taking away the contextual integrity of the subject matter. Example you present (John 10:34-35) and pretend that Jesus is saying that all men can become gods...when Jesus actually was pointing that in the LAWS OF THE JEWS (not in the Laws of God) but the laws of the Jews was giving them an excuse to persecute Jesus and claim He was blaspheming because He worked on the Sabbath..........and they did this not not because Jesus worked on the Sabbath but because of what Jesus declared in descripbing Himself, "I and the Father are One...." (John 10:30,36.....meaning that Jesus being the Son of God was God. And the Jews knew that He was claiming to be God, for the Son carries the title of the Father.



Response:

Jesus in John 17 states that the believers will be one with YHWH as he is one with Him. Following your line of reasoning, all Christians are also God.



Clyde writes:

Its written out in clear unambigous text as to why the Jews were attacking Jesus......and it has nothing to do with all men being gods. "AND THE JEWS ANSWERED HIM (Jesus), It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you (Jesus), but for blasphemy, because you (Jesus) being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." -- John 10: 33



Response:

That was a false accusation. Jesus corrected them by citing Psalms 82, where God identifies the judges of Israel as gods. Yeshua-Jesus, was the archangel incarnate, hence a god, and commander of YHWH's armies. He descended into this world to save mankind and teach everyone in heaven a lesson as to who is truly worthy of sitting on the throne in heaven. Lucifer tried to take the throne away from the Son of YHWH, and failed. The Archangel adopted the title of Michael, which is a question for all of the inhabitants of heaven. The question asks "WHO IS LIKE GOD?". That is what the name/title of the Son of YHWH is, in order to test the loyalty of His subjects.

The answer to the question "WHO IS LIKE GOD?", is "YOU ARE LIKE YHWH-GOD, NOT LUCIFER". The Archangel descended into this fallen, natural universe, becoming the only begotten god of YHWH, willing to relinquish His immortal nature and luminous body/morphe/form, becoming a lowly, mortal man. No holy spirit in heaven is willing to become incarnate, but the Son of YHWH, and Archangel. He is superior to Lucifer, and now all of the holy spirits, know this, in a very vivid way, seeing how their King, courageously, selflessly, descended into this God-forsaken dying world.



Clyde writes:

There you have it in a nutshell..............EVEN THE JEWS KNEW AND COMPREHENDED THAT JESUS WAS CLAIMING TO BE GOD INCARNATE AS THE SON OF GOD. But you 2000 years removed from the drafting of this canon.....declare the opposite, that Jesus was not claiming to be God..but an ARCH ANGEL? Really? LMAO



Response:

Yeshua corrected them with scripture.



Clyde writes:

Facts concerning angels. Angels are spirit beings, sent by God to service His message to mankind (Heb. 1:14). Angels were created at the same time as when all of creation came into existence (Col. 1:16-17, Ps. 148:2-5). Angels are of a higher rank in God's hierarchy than mankind (Ps. 8:4-5).




Response:

Yes.



Clyde writes:

Most importantly........ANGELS ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPED, THEY ARE FELLOW SERVANTS ALONG WITH MAN TO WORSHIP AND SERVE GOD (Revelation 19:10).




Response:

They are not to be worshiped as YHWH God our heavenly Father, but some of them can be worshiped or venerated, as the Bible shows us. Both angels and men were worshiped in the Bible. Not all angels and men are to be worshiped or given veneration.



Clyde writes:

Jesus openly accepted worship while being in the form of THE SON OF MAN (i.e., in the flesh)Examples: Magi, while Jesus was in the crib He was worshiped as a new born.....He was worshiped by man (Matt. 2:11, Matt. 21:19, John 12:13). "Truly You (Jesus) are the SON OF GOD (meaning equal to God)".......He was worshiped as such (Matt.14:33). Examples of some of the women worshiping Jesus in the flesh (Matt. 28:8-9, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10).

The list goes on and on...



Response:

Yes, King David did too, and others. Angels also received worship, which doesn't imply that they were worshipped as YHWH our Father, but rather given respect and veneration in virtue of their special, unique status and position in YHWH's Kingdom.



Clyde writes:

.......Yet, the Bible declares that Angels are not to be worshiped.



Response:

The Archangel and others were worshipped in the Bible.



Clyde writes:

More important Question? How many wives do you think is authorized without engaing in Sin? Your problem......you have a history actual that Ray Charles could find......a history that proves you invoke false doctrines........and Ray Charles is dead and BLIND. Of course being a communist..........you are well versed in the actual canon of the Holy Bible.




Response:

I study and know my Bible.



Clyde writes:

Christianity promotes anything but Communism, in fact as a Christian you are declared an "infidel" if you do not work to provide and defend your family first and foremost -- 2 Thes. 3:10, 1 Tim. 5:8 No "income redistribution" here..........if 10% is good enough for God, its good enough for BIG BROTHER. The quest for SOCIAL JUSTICE was responsible for killing over 100 million in the last century alone.



Response:

Yeshua and His 12 apostles were communists. The angels i.e. holy spirits in heaven, are communists. It's capitalism that is demonic, not communism. Your 100 million death toll figure is false but nonetheless, even if it were true (and it's not), you wouldn't be able to invalidate communism resorting to death toll arguments, because capitalism with its imperialism has killed much more than 100 million. As a defender of capitalism, you have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point your finger at communism.

Biblical theism also has its big mountain of dead bodies, and that in and of itself doesn't discredit or invalidate it. Ever heard of the flood? Ever read about how YHWH ordered the Israelites to wipe out their enemies? There is plenty of divinely condoned violence and death in the Bible.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

In an answer to that, Jesus would not be able to make that statement if His claim to be the Sovereign G-d of Creation wasn't true, and proven by His bodily resurrection. Without His deity, He would have been exposed as a fraud.

Jesus never claimed to be GOD in fact he repeatedly stated over and over he was NOT his father and not GOD.

 

[Road Runner]

Jesus never claimed to be GOD in fact he repeatedly stated over and over he was NOT his father and not GOD.

Then why did He say that He and the Father were one and if you had seen then you had seen the Father you had seen Him?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Then why did He say that He and the Father were one and if you had seen then you had seen the Father you had seen Him?

read it in context with his other statements they arethe same in that they believe the same thing and support the same thing.

 

[Road Runner]

read it in context with his other statements they arethe same in that they believe the same thing and support the same thing.

I don't think so...

 

[Red Front]

Then why did He say that He and the Father were one and if you had seen then you had seen the Father you had seen Him?

In John 17 Jesus prays that we should become one with YHWH as He is one with His Father YHWH. We are all one. Are we co-equal with YHWH God?

 

[Road Runner]

In John 17 Jesus prays that we should become one with YHWH as He is one with His Father YHWH. We are all one. Are we co-equal with YHWH God?

We're not but Christ is since He's God in the flesh.

 

[Red Front]

We're not but Christ is since He's God in the flesh.

You said that Jesus is co-equal with the heavenly Father, because they're one. I mentioned the fact that in John 17 Jesus says that the believers are one with YHWH as Jesus is one with Him. Following your original line of reasoning, if Jesus is equal to YHWH Father, on account of being one with Him, then we are also equal to YHWH Father, because we are one with him too. Your response is to ignore what I said and simply repeat your belief.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Jesus never claimed to be GOD in fact he repeatedly stated over and over he was NOT his father and not GOD.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was I AM.

 

[Red Front]

John 8:58 Before Abraham was I AM.

He was simply stating that before Abraham existed, he existed. The language and context there don't justify your hermeneutic.

 

[Clyde 154]

Clyde writes:

Fact: All throughout the Holy Scriptures (the canon of the N.T.) there are but 2 examples of an angel having a NAME, and Phil. 2:6 is not one of the 2 examples (Jude 9, Luke 1:19).


Response:

In Phil 2:6 we're reading an account of the Archangel emptying himself of His immortal "morphe" or divine form and adopting the lowly body of a mortal man, subject to corruption, disease, and death. The only heavenly spirit who was willing to descend into this fallen world and pay the ransom for mankind was Him, the Archangel, and Son of YHWH. It's because of His life, death, and resurrection, that all of humanity will one day rise from the grave and have their day in court. Without Yeshua, every human being would remain dead in their grave, without recourse or redemption.


Clyde writes:

To even pretend angels are directly named and are to be worshiped by men is absurd.


Response:

It might seem absurd to you but it's nonetheless true. There are angels and human beings mentioned in the Bible who were worshiped, in virtue of their divine position of authority, given to them by YHWH our heavenly Father.



Clyde writes:


You must ADD information that does not exist in the N.T. canon....



Response:

This information is in both the Hebrew and Christian NT scriptures.



Clyde writes:

along with adding such you invoke a curse from God, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book; if any man shall add unto these things; God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book......." -- Rev. 22:18



Response:

The book mentioned in the above verse is the book of revelation, not the whole Bible. However, despite of that fact, that doesn't imply that we should add to God's word or distort it in any way.



Clyde writes:
Angels are not to be worshiped, angels are messengers, servants (Heb.2:2)......thus, the Christ (Jesus) could not be an angel,



Response:

As I showed in an earlier post with plenty of Biblical references, the angels of YHWH's kingdom are holy spirits that are identified as gods/divine beings. Both holy spirits i.e. angels and men like King David and Yeshua our Messiah, were worshipped.



Clyde writes:

Jesus described Himself existing as "I AM" even before Abraham. (John 8:58........Exodus 3:14). Strange is it not how both the Son and the Father describe themselves as I AM?



Response:

They don't. Jesus was simply telling the Pharisees that he existed before Abraham as the Archangel. They tried to kill him for making himself superior to Abraham. The mob did the same thing to Stephen for the same reason. He was accused of blasphemy against a prophet.



Clyde writes:

You cherry pick passages and misrepresent the content by taking away the contextual integrity of the subject matter. Example you present (John 10:34-35) and pretend that Jesus is saying that all men can become gods...when Jesus actually was pointing that in the LAWS OF THE JEWS (not in the Laws of God) but the laws of the Jews was giving them an excuse to persecute Jesus and claim He was blaspheming because He worked on the Sabbath..........and they did this not not because Jesus worked on the Sabbath but because of what Jesus declared in descripbing Himself, "I and the Father are One...." (John 10:30,36.....meaning that Jesus being the Son of God was God. And the Jews knew that He was claiming to be God, for the Son carries the title of the Father.



Response:

Jesus in John 17 states that the believers will be one with YHWH as he is one with Him. Following your line of reasoning, all Christians are also God.



Clyde writes:

Its written out in clear unambigous text as to why the Jews were attacking Jesus......and it has nothing to do with all men being gods. "AND THE JEWS ANSWERED HIM (Jesus), It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you (Jesus), but for blasphemy, because you (Jesus) being a man, MAKE YOURSELF GOD." -- John 10: 33



Response:

That was a false accusation. Jesus corrected them by citing Psalms 82, where God identifies the judges of Israel as gods. Yeshua-Jesus, was the archangel incarnate, hence a god, and commander of YHWH's armies. He descended into this world to save mankind and teach everyone in heaven a lesson as to who is truly worthy of sitting on the throne in heaven. Lucifer tried to take the throne away from the Son of YHWH, and failed. The Archangel adopted the title of Michael, which is a question for all of the inhabitants of heaven. The question asks "WHO IS LIKE GOD?". That is what the name/title of the Son of YHWH is, in order to test the loyalty of His subjects.

The answer to the question "WHO IS LIKE GOD?", is "YOU ARE LIKE YHWH-GOD, NOT LUCIFER". The Archangel descended into this fallen, natural universe, becoming the only begotten god of YHWH, willing to relinquish His immortal nature and luminous body/morphe/form, becoming a lowly, mortal man. No holy spirit in heaven is willing to become incarnate, but the Son of YHWH, and Archangel. He is superior to Lucifer, and now all of the holy spirits, know this, in a very vivid way, seeing how their King, courageously, selflessly, descended into this God-forsaken dying world.



Clyde writes:

There you have it in a nutshell..............EVEN THE JEWS KNEW AND COMPREHENDED THAT JESUS WAS CLAIMING TO BE GOD INCARNATE AS THE SON OF GOD. But you 2000 years removed from the drafting of this canon.....declare the opposite, that Jesus was not claiming to be God..but an ARCH ANGEL? Really? LMAO



Response:

Yeshua corrected them with scripture.



Clyde writes:

Facts concerning angels. Angels are spirit beings, sent by God to service His message to mankind (Heb. 1:14). Angels were created at the same time as when all of creation came into existence (Col. 1:16-17, Ps. 148:2-5). Angels are of a higher rank in God's hierarchy than mankind (Ps. 8:4-5).




Response:

Yes.



Clyde writes:

Most importantly........ANGELS ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPED, THEY ARE FELLOW SERVANTS ALONG WITH MAN TO WORSHIP AND SERVE GOD (Revelation 19:10).




Response:

They are not to be worshiped as YHWH God our heavenly Father, but some of them can be worshiped or venerated, as the Bible shows us. Both angels and men were worshiped in the Bible. Not all angels and men are to be worshiped or given veneration.



Clyde writes:

Jesus openly accepted worship while being in the form of THE SON OF MAN (i.e., in the flesh)Examples: Magi, while Jesus was in the crib He was worshiped as a new born.....He was worshiped by man (Matt. 2:11, Matt. 21:19, John 12:13). "Truly You (Jesus) are the SON OF GOD (meaning equal to God)".......He was worshiped as such (Matt.14:33). Examples of some of the women worshiping Jesus in the flesh (Matt. 28:8-9, Mark 16:1, Luke 24:10).

The list goes on and on...



Response:

Yes, King David did too, and others. Angels also received worship, which doesn't imply that they were worshipped as YHWH our Father, but rather given respect and veneration in virtue of their special, unique status and position in YHWH's Kingdom.



Clyde writes:

.......Yet, the Bible declares that Angels are not to be worshiped.



Response:

The Archangel and others were worshipped in the Bible.



Clyde writes:

More important Question? How many wives do you think is authorized without engaing in Sin? Your problem......you have a history actual that Ray Charles could find......a history that proves you invoke false doctrines........and Ray Charles is dead and BLIND. Of course being a communist..........you are well versed in the actual canon of the Holy Bible.




Response:

I study and know my Bible.



Clyde writes:

Christianity promotes anything but Communism, in fact as a Christian you are declared an "infidel" if you do not work to provide and defend your family first and foremost -- 2 Thes. 3:10, 1 Tim. 5:8 No "income redistribution" here..........if 10% is good enough for God, its good enough for BIG BROTHER. The quest for SOCIAL JUSTICE was responsible for killing over 100 million in the last century alone.



Response:

Yeshua and His 12 apostles were communists. The angels i.e. holy spirits in heaven, are communists. It's capitalism that is demonic, not communism. Your 100 million death toll figure is false but nonetheless, even if it were true (and it's not), you wouldn't be able to invalidate communism resorting to death toll arguments, because capitalism with its imperialism has killed much more than 100 million. As a defender of capitalism, you have no moral high ground upon which to stand and point your finger at communism.

Biblical theism also has its big mountain of dead bodies, and that in and of itself doesn't discredit or invalidate it. Ever heard of the flood? Ever read about how YHWH ordered the Israelites to wipe out their enemies? There is plenty of divinely condoned violence and death in the Bible.

Its a JOY......watching you spin, twist and contort in order to attempt to mold the actual content of the Holy Bible arround your false doctrine. Just like a liberal.......you have the mule attempting to push the plow. You are to mold your life around the scriptures........the scriptures were not revealed to twist them around man made ideas. When you do this....its just like Peter declared, "......you do so to your own destruction." Some, even in the days of Peter had trouble understanding the scriptures that were recorded by Paul (2 Peter 3:16)

I am still awaiting your explainatioon concerning your cults history and how it defended Adultery (married to more than one).........and Racism......claiming that Black's had a dark color because God punished them....... And now....everyone is to simply forget those lies of doctrine and accept your continued reprobate mentalities in defense of a doctrine that claims Angels are to be worshiped, men can become Gods..........and God sent an angel messenger in the 19th century (apparently a stupid angel_........not speaking or translating in Modern English......but using an antiquited languge used by those who translated the King James version. Making this angel to stupid to let Smith translate new revelations into American English? Strange indeed for an all powerful god.

One would assume if the God of Creation had "new revelations", these revelations would be revealed in the current languae of modern days, just as the N.T. by majority used the universal langauge of the day (Koine Greek)....but no, your angel used a dead language in order to reveal an entire new Bible.


You are yet to present the Book, Chapter and Verse that declares angels are to be worshiped, why? Because you cannot. Men will never become GODS......as the wisest man in all the hisotry of the Judeo/Christian faith proclaimed, the entire duty of mankind is to serve and obey God (Eccl. 12:13)

Men will never be LIKE GOD.......there is only 1 Godhead consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost......there are none other like this. The Gospel of Matthew makes it clear........you can not enter the kingdom of God/the church unless you have been baptized into the kingdom by the Godhead, "And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying ALL POWER has been given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth, Go ye therefore and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND OF THE HOLY GHOST (the 3 spirits that make up the 1 Godhead)" -- Matthew 28:18-19

Will men ever be LIKE GOD? No.......that's BS. Why? God was never a man with a fleshly body, God is a Spirit (John 4:24)........Jesus had to "empty" Himself of His divine nature in order to accept a fleshly body (Phil. 2:7-11). Even after His resurrection He was seen in the flesh for 40 days .........He was no Spirit, He had flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)......this was done in order to fulfill the prophecies concerning the body of Messiah and how it would not see corruption (decay.....). There has only been "1" that has physically defeated death.......Christ Jesus. As for the rest after the first born Jesus? They will defeat death with spiritual bodies that will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye" when the final judgment Trump is blown, the quick and the dead shall receive spiritual bodies...........Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:33, 15:50-56)

If men can become LIKE GOD............who created God? God establishes the fact that He is the creator of ALL THINGS (Eph. 3:9). God is defined as, "the High and Lofty One that inhabits eternity....." -- Isa. 57:15. Meaning? God is an eternally existing being, with no beginning and no ending as detailed (Deut. 33:27, Isa. 9:6.....etc. Ps. 41:13, 90:2, 93:2, 100:5....) God is from everlasting to everlasting.

Men were created by God and exist to be the SERVANTS of GOD.........not the equal. (Eccl. 12:13-14). There is only "1" God (consisting of 3, as defined by Jesus Himself -- Matthew 28:18-19) "I am the Lord AND THERE IS NONE ELSE....THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME...........(Isa. 45:5, 46:9)

 

[shockedcanadian]

On one hand I understand what Jesus is saying when He says that all those that are His friends will obey His commandments, but on the other hand imagine if Jesus wasn't the Son of God and He was just a regular person. I'm not saying that He wasn't human, but imagine that He wasn't the Lord and just somebody else speaking to you like that and then follows it up with He doesn't call us servants but yet still says that we need to obey His orders if we want to be friends with Him. Wouldn't that be a tad bit messed up? If He wasn't the Lord of all creation I don't think I would be interested in a friendship like that.

I suppose he is suggesting that he knows his fate, he is telling them all to to follow and be rewarded. Imagine if he wasn't so direct? Some souls may have been lost.

 

[Red Front]

I am still awaiting your explainatioon concerning your cults history and how it defended Adultery (married to more than one).........and Racism......claiming that Black's had a dark color because God punished them....... And now....everyone is to simply forget those lies of doctrine and accept your continued reprobate mentalities in defense of a doctrine that claims Angels are to be worshiped, men can become Gods..........and sent a messenger in the 19th century........not speaking or translating in Modern English......but antiquited languge used by those who translated the King James version. Making to stupid to let Smith translate new revelations into American English? Strange indeed for an all powerful god.


You are yet to present the Book, Chapter and Verse that declares angels are to be worshiped, why? Because you cannot. Men will never become GODS......as the wisest man in all the hisotry of the Judeo/Christian faith proclaimed, the entire duty of mankind is to serve and obey God (Eccl. 12:13)

Men will never be LIKE GOD.......there is only 1 Godhead consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost......there are none other like this. The Gospel of Matthew makes it clear........you can not enter the kingdom of God/the church unless you have been baptized into the kingdom by the Godhead, "And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying ALL POWER has been given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth, Go ye therefore and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND OF THE HOLY GHOST (the 3 spirits that make up the 1 Godhead)" -- Matthew 28:18-19

Will men ever be LIKE GOD? No.......that's BS. Why? God was never a man with a fleshly body, God is a Spirit (John 4:24)........Jesus had to "empty" Himself of His divine nature in order to accept a fleshly body (Phil. 2:7-11). Even after His resurrection He was seen in the flesh for 40 days .........He was no Spirit, He had flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)......this was done in order to fulfill the prophecies concerning the body of Messiah and how it would not see corruption (decay.....). There has only been "1" that has physically defeated death.......Christ Jesus. As for the rest after the first born Jesus? They will defeat death with spiritual bodies that will be changed in the "twinkling of an eye" when the final judgment Trump is blown, the quick and the dead shall receive spiritual bodies...........Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:33, 15:50-56)

If men can become LIKE GOD............who created God? God establishes the fact that He is the creator of ALL THINGS (Eph. 3:9). God is defined as, "the High and Lofty One that inhabits eternity....." -- Isa. 57:15. Meaning? God is an eternally existing being, with no beginning and no ending as detailed (Deut. 33:27, Isa. 9:6.....etc. Ps. 41:13, 90:2, 93:2, 100:5....) God is from everlasting to everlasting.

Men were created by God and exists to be the SERVANTS of GOD.........not the equal. (Eccl. 12:13-14). There is only "1" God (consisting of 3, as defined by Jesus Himself -- Matthew 28:18-19) "I am the Lord AND THERE IS NONE ELSE....THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME...........(Isa. 45:5, 46:9)

You obviously don't know the Hebrew Bible. You mentioned a "cult", what are you referring to?