I'm hiring

[Jackson]

AA was a temporary measure put in place to try and help the tremendous imbalance that resulted from generations of oppressive and discriminatory policy that we had prior to the civil rights act. The black community had little to no opportunity to gain wealth, proper education, or achieve prosperity in the same way that whites did. You can't just change a law and expect everything to be even.

AA is no longer in effect which is a good thing, but some policies still exists that help minority races and also women gain more opportunity. You can call that racist against white men but that is an extremely narrow and ignorant POV when considering the big picture and our history.

Why are parts of it still existing? You say that AA is "no longer in effect and a good thing"?
That it racist when you intentionally select one race over another when their resume or skill set does not support it.

Careful! If you disagree, you have an extremely narrow and ignorant point of view dontchaknow!

Disagree all you want, I welcome good debate. Just don't deny reality and only tell half the story. Show at least a recognition as to why certain initiatives exist. Otherwise you are fitting the definition of ignorance.

If you were white and had extensive knowledge of welding, how would you feel if a black guy got hired for that $30 an hour job with no experience but came in on an "intern program?"

I'd be bummed

Most people would be, lol. That is a price we pay if employment isn't carefully done.

 

[Jackson]

This brings to mind Sotomayor when she was about to be confirmed to the Supreme Court. One of the cases she had was from a federal court about all black persons failed to pass a test to become a fireman. She called the test racist and demanded that all of the black people be hired without determination from the test. Ir was overturned, plus seven other cases she had before the Supreme Court. She was selected and confirmed for the spot. The rest is history.

As an aside when it comes to hiring firemen, I don't think women should be in that position unless they can pass the physical test. I just think if I was in a fire, I would want a man with girth to carry me out. Not some petite doll that is dragging me through the fire.

 

[eddiew]

No, actually it's not. Race is one factor taken into account. Academic performance alone doesn't assure college success and it is not the only thing colleges look at. However, everyone seems to be forgetting that all this is, is an opportunity. It is still on the student to achieve. If they don't, that's on them.

if race is considered in admissions then it is racist by definition. You can't really get around that. You may argue it is justified, that's fine, but don't say it isn't racist.

I agree with you that making decisions or even tracking groups by race on achievement, employment and income, is looking at the population through a racial lens. It's to overcome inequality, though, not make it worse. Once the playing field is level, and there is no distinguishing between black and white socioeconomically, that should stop being asked about or tracked in any way. Racism means that you feel one race is superior to another's. That is not what Affirmative Action is about. It is to give minorities an equal opportunity in areas they were once denied. We aren't done yet.

Equal opportunity does not mean equal results. Should we apply affirmative action to "level the playing field" for Asians to play in the NBA?

Here joemama
Yao Ming

Nationality: Chinese
Team(s): Rockets
Years active: 2002-2011
Career stats: 486 G, 19 PPG, 9.2 RPG, 1.6 APG, 1.9 BPG

For Asian athletes the world over, it doesn't get bigger than Yao—literally. The guy was 7'6", making him the NBA's third-tallest player, and the fourth tallest Chinese man on record.

He kinda sucked. Way way overrated. Just like Jeremy Lin. Both got way over-hyped. It was kinda an Affirmative Action-deal with them.

19ppg sucks?....9.2rpg? What did you want Oscar Robertson?

 

[Slade3200]

AA was a temporary measure put in place to try and help the tremendous imbalance that resulted from generations of oppressive and discriminatory policy that we had prior to the civil rights act. The black community had little to no opportunity to gain wealth, proper education, or achieve prosperity in the same way that whites did. You can't just change a law and expect everything to be even.

AA is no longer in effect which is a good thing, but some policies still exists that help minority races and also women gain more opportunity. You can call that racist against white men but that is an extremely narrow and ignorant POV when considering the big picture and our history.

Why are parts of it still existing? You say that AA is "no longer in effect and a good thing"?
That it racist when you intentionally select one race over another when their resume or skill set does not support it.

Careful! If you disagree, you have an extremely narrow and ignorant point of view dontchaknow!

Thank you for the warning! I still go with my gut, though. Thanks

When you have generations of discrimination like we had in our country racial issues and inequality get ingrained into our culture and it takes generations work those out. An initiative like AA was believed to be a good idea in the aftermath of civil rights, then it gets weened off, not completely shut down, which I think is a responsible approach

Why "wean down"? If it is no longer an issue, hire the most capable. We have had reverse discrimination for too long. The pedulum belongs in the middle now.

It gets weened down because the issue doesn't just disappear... it lessens and as it lessens policy's get adjusted

 

[Slade3200]

Why are parts of it still existing? You say that AA is "no longer in effect and a good thing"?
That it racist when you intentionally select one race over another when their resume or skill set does not support it.

Careful! If you disagree, you have an extremely narrow and ignorant point of view dontchaknow!

Disagree all you want, I welcome good debate. Just don't deny reality and only tell half the story. Show at least a recognition as to why certain initiatives exist. Otherwise you are fitting the definition of ignorance.

Knowing why an initiative exists does not equate to agreeing that it should continue to exist.

That's what I said. People don't have to agree with me. I'm stating my opinion. But if you can't recognize our history of inequality that led to things like AA then you are not having an honest conversation.

Perhaps you should not ignorantly assume that someone that believes that it's time for AA to end is not aware of the history.

It wasn't mentioned in the OP in which I was responding to

 

[Derelict_Drvr]

Old lady, my 50 years of working in large urban areas such as Chicago, New York and Houston tells me that those in favor of affirmative action after all this time are not looking for equal opportunity, but want EQUAL RESULTS.

The fact that that's beyond your comprehension speaks volumes.

I have to go, but I'm interested in why you think equal results aren't possible.

When equality is legislated you inevitably raise the so-called less equal to a status above the rest. If you make laws that say you have to hire over someone else because of perceived inequality employers will generally take extra careful precautions that will result in the almost, or early, qualified being hired over the definitely qualified.

If done carefully, and that depends on the employer and their insight on the perspective hiree, you can take an individual who does not yet have the skills but will learn fast and be an asset to the firm.

 

[Rexx Taylor]

and us "Over 40" folks all remember that All In The Family episode when Micheal was up against a black man for a job and didnt get it,,,so he slammed the door and shattered the glass

 

[Slade3200]

AA was a temporary measure put in place to try and help the tremendous imbalance that resulted from generations of oppressive and discriminatory policy that we had prior to the civil rights act. The black community had little to no opportunity to gain wealth, proper education, or achieve prosperity in the same way that whites did. You can't just change a law and expect everything to be even.

AA is no longer in effect which is a good thing, but some policies still exists that help minority races and also women gain more opportunity. You can call that racist against white men but that is an extremely narrow and ignorant POV when considering the big picture and our history.

Why are parts of it still existing? You say that AA is "no longer in effect and a good thing"?
That it racist when you intentionally select one race over another when their resume or skill set does not support it.

Did you read the rest of my statement? I think I explained the reasoning for it pretty clearly

Yes I did. It was temporary and still in effect for minorities and women. It's time for both of the segments of the population to stand on their laurels and skin color and genitals don't figure in.

I agree with you and I think it is a good debate... at some point the bird needs to get pushed out of the nest so it can learn to fly and we need to be careful not to allow government to get to ingrained in our lives. That's why I like the dynamic between liberals and conservatives. When the two can communicate properly it creates a good system of checks and balances on issues like this.

Excellent points. Notice how we weere able to carry on a dialogue without name calling? It's refreshing.

I do believe that there still remainsn a hidden detriment, not only to blacks, but all those below the poverty level. It is their attitude that makes the difference.

As an example, I have lived a middle class existence. My son was brought up with the "School and grades are important and you will go to college." Never a question about that. All of the boys he hung around with didn't have that same family attitude. None of his friends went to college and "just got by in high school." They are still in and out of jobs while my son is making 6 figures as a Director in a national chain. They were all white, but their families had different attitudes than mine. Makes a big difference.

I agree, my girl worked in very low income school districts as a counselor for years and the stories I would hear about the mindsets of many of these poor minority children was heartbreaking. very very few even saw college as a possibility, many didn't even know the value of money or what it was like to get a job. When all they've seen is their single mom collecting a check from the government their whole lives, most of their friends in gangs and dealing drugs.

Many of the values that we teach to our kids came from what we were taught by our parents. Of course there are always exceptions but when looking at the big picture the generations of wealth, education and culture that can from white families in America is a very different story than that of blacks. These cultural differences are not easy to change. But we have to try

 

[Jackson]

FWIW, immigrants today are not the same as the immigrants from years ago. It used to be hardworking people came to build a new life in the land of opportunity. Now, they come to reap the rewards from a generous governem

Why are parts of it still existing? You say that AA is "no longer in effect and a good thing"?
That it racist when you intentionally select one race over another when their resume or skill set does not support it.

Did you read the rest of my statement? I think I explained the reasoning for it pretty clearly

Yes I did. It was temporary and still in effect for minorities and women. It's time for both of the segments of the population to stand on their laurels and skin color and genitals don't figure in.

I agree with you and I think it is a good debate... at some point the bird needs to get pushed out of the nest so it can learn to fly and we need to be careful not to allow government to get to ingrained in our lives. That's why I like the dynamic between liberals and conservatives. When the two can communicate properly it creates a good system of checks and balances on issues like this.

Excellent points. Notice how we weere able to carry on a dialogue without name calling? It's refreshing.

I do believe that there still remainsn a hidden detriment, not only to blacks, but all those below the poverty level. It is their attitude that makes the difference.

As an example, I have lived a middle class existence. My son was brought up with the "School and grades are important and you will go to college." Never a question about that. All of the boys he hung around with didn't have that same family attitude. None of his friends went to college and "just got by in high school." They are still in and out of jobs while my son is making 6 figures as a Director in a national chain. They were all white, but their families had different attitudes than mine. Makes a big difference.

I agree, my girl worked in very low income school districts as a counselor for years and the stories I would hear about the mindsets of many of these poor minority children was heartbreaking. very very few even saw college as a possibility, many didn't even know the value of money or what it was like to get a job. When all they've seen is their single mom collecting a check from the government their whole lives, most of their friends in gangs and dealing drugs.

Many of the values that we teach to our kids came from what we were taught by our parents. Of course there are always exceptions but when looking at the big picture the generations of wealth, education and culture that can from white families in America is a very different story than that of blacks. These cultural differences are not easy to change. But we have to try

Excellent post. Isn't that a sad story? How can we change that attitude? It's as if we need to take the youngsters out of the homes and put them in boarding school to give them an alternative choice for their futures.

I've taught in the inner city all my life. Some (or many) are living in crisis mode or just getting by with help from the government. They don't know anything different. We learn what we live.

 

[BuckToothMoron]

if race is considered in admissions then it is racist by definition. You can't really get around that. You may argue it is justified, that's fine, but don't say it isn't racist.

I agree with you that making decisions or even tracking groups by race on achievement, employment and income, is looking at the population through a racial lens. It's to overcome inequality, though, not make it worse. Once the playing field is level, and there is no distinguishing between black and white socioeconomically, that should stop being asked about or tracked in any way. Racism means that you feel one race is superior to another's. That is not what Affirmative Action is about. It is to give minorities an equal opportunity in areas they were once denied. We aren't done yet.

"Once the playing field is level....." is a noble but impossible goal, and if that is the barometer you will use to decide to stop racial monitoring, you will never stop. The playing field will never be level. Statistics show tall men are more likely to be promoted over short men. So what's next? Shall we force employers to promote more shorter employees. Racism is distinguishing based on race, and some people, nearly all of us in fact, do it to some degree. We can never anticipate the unintended consequences of social engineering.

I have no idea why you and FlaCalTenn believe the playing field can never be level. Why do you believe the black community CANNOT ever have the same employment rate as whites? Why can't they have the same income levels and levels of education? WHY?

Please site anytime or place in human history where a diverse society had a level playing field. I admire the goal, but the reality of history is not on your side.

Really? Show me some places that tracked this in the past. There will always be poor folks. We don't need African Americans, who have been here as long if not longer than many of us, to be a "minority" that will always be relegated to poverty. That's RIDICULOUS and there is nothing particularly "noble" about it. To me it makes perfect sense.

History is replete with discrimination. It has been a part of virtually ever civilization of any magnitude. It may not exist in your home or possibly in your neighborhood, but the farther you extend from your "own" kind, the more it is evident. We should all try to reach beyond bigotry, racism and discrimination, but you can not force a person to be unbigoted. African Americans are a minority. That is a fact. There are more whites than African Americans, that is the definition of a minority. Many of our affirmative actions models do more damage than good. It serves to reinforce the stereotype of people who can't make it without help. It's insulting and demeaning to them. Human beings gain pride and self worth thru achievement, not from handouts and participation trophies. You are robbing them of their god given right to self actualization.

You will do more good by providing examples of success thru one's own efforts rather than providing a free pass to a job or college education.

 

[JoeMoma]

Careful! If you disagree, you have an extremely narrow and ignorant point of view dontchaknow!

Disagree all you want, I welcome good debate. Just don't deny reality and only tell half the story. Show at least a recognition as to why certain initiatives exist. Otherwise you are fitting the definition of ignorance.

Knowing why an initiative exists does not equate to agreeing that it should continue to exist.

That's what I said. People don't have to agree with me. I'm stating my opinion. But if you can't recognize our history of inequality that led to things like AA then you are not having an honest conversation.

Perhaps you should not ignorantly assume that someone that believes that it's time for AA to end is not aware of the history.

It wasn't mentioned in the OP in which I was responding to

Common knowledge is often not mentioned.

 

[JoeMoma]

I agree with you that making decisions or even tracking groups by race on achievement, employment and income, is looking at the population through a racial lens. It's to overcome inequality, though, not make it worse. Once the playing field is level, and there is no distinguishing between black and white socioeconomically, that should stop being asked about or tracked in any way. Racism means that you feel one race is superior to another's. That is not what Affirmative Action is about. It is to give minorities an equal opportunity in areas they were once denied. We aren't done yet.

"Once the playing field is level....." is a noble but impossible goal, and if that is the barometer you will use to decide to stop racial monitoring, you will never stop. The playing field will never be level. Statistics show tall men are more likely to be promoted over short men. So what's next? Shall we force employers to promote more shorter employees. Racism is distinguishing based on race, and some people, nearly all of us in fact, do it to some degree. We can never anticipate the unintended consequences of social engineering.

I have no idea why you and FlaCalTenn believe the playing field can never be level. Why do you believe the black community CANNOT ever have the same employment rate as whites? Why can't they have the same income levels and levels of education? WHY?

Please site anytime or place in human history where a diverse society had a level playing field. I admire the goal, but the reality of history is not on your side.

Really? Show me some places that tracked this in the past. There will always be poor folks. We don't need African Americans, who have been here as long if not longer than many of us, to be a "minority" that will always be relegated to poverty. That's RIDICULOUS and there is nothing particularly "noble" about it. To me it makes perfect sense.

History is replete with discrimination. It has been a part of virtually ever civilization of any magnitude. It may not exist in your home or possibly in your neighborhood, but the farther you extend from your "own" kind, the more it is evident. We should all try to reach beyond bigotry, racism and discrimination, but you can not force a person to be unbigoted. African Americans are a minority. That is a fact. There are more whites than African Americans, that is the definition of a minority. Many of our affirmative actions models do more damage than good. It serves to reinforce the stereotype of people who can't make it without help. It's insulting and demeaning to them. Human beings gain pride and self worth thru achievement, not from handouts and participation trophies. You are robbing them of their god given right to self actualization.

You will do more good by providing examples of success thru one's own efforts rather than providing a free pass to a job or college education.

The word "discrimination" has gotten a bad rap. I like Apple pie more than childcare cake. Thus, when given a choice between the two, I will usually discriminate against the chocoated cake and pick apple pie.
That being said, discrimination based on race is usually not good.

 

[Slade3200]

FWIW, immigrants today are not the same as the immigrants from years ago. It used to be hardworking people came to build a new life in the land of opportunity. Now, they come to reap the rewards from a generous governem

Did you read the rest of my statement? I think I explained the reasoning for it pretty clearly

Yes I did. It was temporary and still in effect for minorities and women. It's time for both of the segments of the population to stand on their laurels and skin color and genitals don't figure in.

I agree with you and I think it is a good debate... at some point the bird needs to get pushed out of the nest so it can learn to fly and we need to be careful not to allow government to get to ingrained in our lives. That's why I like the dynamic between liberals and conservatives. When the two can communicate properly it creates a good system of checks and balances on issues like this.

Excellent points. Notice how we weere able to carry on a dialogue without name calling? It's refreshing.

I do believe that there still remainsn a hidden detriment, not only to blacks, but all those below the poverty level. It is their attitude that makes the difference.

As an example, I have lived a middle class existence. My son was brought up with the "School and grades are important and you will go to college." Never a question about that. All of the boys he hung around with didn't have that same family attitude. None of his friends went to college and "just got by in high school." They are still in and out of jobs while my son is making 6 figures as a Director in a national chain. They were all white, but their families had different attitudes than mine. Makes a big difference.

I agree, my girl worked in very low income school districts as a counselor for years and the stories I would hear about the mindsets of many of these poor minority children was heartbreaking. very very few even saw college as a possibility, many didn't even know the value of money or what it was like to get a job. When all they've seen is their single mom collecting a check from the government their whole lives, most of their friends in gangs and dealing drugs.

Many of the values that we teach to our kids came from what we were taught by our parents. Of course there are always exceptions but when looking at the big picture the generations of wealth, education and culture that can from white families in America is a very different story than that of blacks. These cultural differences are not easy to change. But we have to try

Excellent post. Isn't that a sad story? How can we change that attitude? It's as if we need to take the youngsters out of the homes and put them in boarding school to give them an alternative choice for their futures.

I've taught in the inner city all my life. Some (or many) are living in crisis mode or just getting by with help from the government. They don't know anything different. We learn what we live.

Yeah it's a sad story for many as I'm sure you've seen. I think the best approach is to support after school programs especially in poor neighborhoods. Give kids a safe and productive place to go after school where they can be around mentors and positive influences.

 

[Divine Wind]

What would you call me if I hired the white guy over the black who is more qualified?

Smart. I don't trust blacks. PERIOD.

I know several people who happen to be black who I'd trust over you or Steve_McGarrett

Wow we are very impressed you know several people that our black...give yourself a gold star..


View attachment 135432




.

The military desegregated before US schools did. Obviously you dropped out before that happened.

Give yourself a swastika tattoo for defending two of the biggest fucking Nazis on the forum.

 

[Divine Wind]

That was uneccessary. Fuck AA.

Affirmative Action is institutionalized racism.

 

[Marion Morrison]

and us "Over 40" folks all remember that All In The Family episode when Micheal was up against a black man for a job and didnt get it,,,so he slammed the door and shattered the glass

Consider the social engineering/programming ramifications from that episode.

That's not cool. Yes they did that on purpose.

PS: Fuck that libtard meathead.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Absolutely and it played a good role by trying to help lift up an oppressed group of people.
But I submit that, that time has come and gone.

Not when the unemployment rate for blacks is still twice that for whites, including blacks with commensurate college educations. Don't think the time has come quite yet. It's definitely better, tho.

That's cuz blacks be lazy.

Yeah.

Well... They be something.
From 17 to 22 I went to school, raised a kid, played a dangerous game of keep away from psychopathic first husband and worked in a sweatshop of an industrial laundry. It was the worst job I ever had. 12cents a day, breathing chemicals and dust bunnies, health and safety hazards, 120 degree days... Awful.
Except for Bea who was a wonderful friend to me, I never saw a black work there. They tried... they just wouldn't work. Most lasted a day or two. Many lasted til lunch or less. Many left without word. They were hard jobs yeah. Shitty work, but it was work and it was reliable, steady work.
They would not work.
Same thing in another housekeeping/laundry position I was snookered into being supervisor for. This job paid fairly well for unskilled labor and wasn't that hard at all. I was told to get a cultural mix in there and tried. I could not keep a black there.
I hired two meskins that were the most honest, hard working and least complaining people I had on that team.
Blacks won't even learn English.

I hear ya, but it's not so much a black thing as it is employment ignorance. We have the same problem around here with some folks (no blacks around here) who grew up in a household where no one was working for an employer and you put them in a situation where they gotta show up to work on time every day and do the job, it's like sending them to Neptune or something. I've been doing some work around those "soft" employment skills. We take it for granted people know that shit--no, they don't. Some people know it and still won't work--but it's not a black thing. When I visited the south, I was struck by the fact that EVERY maid and bellhop and most fast food workers were black.

Was that in Alabama by any chance?

I noticed something when I was 11 and went there, they may not have slaves, but they have nannies n butlers , I think they just renamed them.

The people were glad to work and that's fine and all, but damn.'

I may have said it before, but I'll say it again, I'd much rather have a qualified black man over an unqualified white one any day.

I'm from The South. Not that much racism here.

I used to do work for this old black man, that loved for nothing better than me to cut big stuff and him use his tractor on it, boy, he loved that tractor, and me giving him purpose to use it.

Yeah it was hot or whatever, but those were good times.

 

[Divine Wind]

and us "Over 40" folks all remember that All In The Family episode when Micheal was up against a black man for a job and didnt get it,,,so he slammed the door and shattered the glass

Consider the social engineering/programming ramifications from that episode.

That's not cool. Yes they did that on purpose.

PS: Fuck that libtard meathead.

I don't recall the episode, but obviously recall the show. It was groundbreaking in many ways. Good to see it presented that aspect of Affirmative Action.

It's an old comment that young people should be liberal, but they become more conservative as they mature. Mike and Gloria were obviously the liberals contrasted with Archie's über-conservatism and Edith's loving dinginess. How did Mike's liberalness cope with the unfairness of Affirmative Action? How did it affect his idealism to know that innocent people were being harmed by Federal "feel good" laws?

 

[Marion Morrison]

and us "Over 40" folks all remember that All In The Family episode when Micheal was up against a black man for a job and didnt get it,,,so he slammed the door and shattered the glass

Consider the social engineering/programming ramifications from that episode.

That's not cool. Yes they did that on purpose.

PS: Fuck that libtard meathead.

I don't recall the episode, but obviously recall the show. It was groundbreaking in many ways. Good to see it presented that aspect of Affirmative Action.

It's an old comment that young people should be liberal, but they become more conservative as they mature. Mike and Gloria were obviously the liberals contrasted with Archie's über-conservatism and Edith's loving dinginess. How did Mike's liberalness cope with the unfairness of Affirmative Action? How did it affect his idealism to know that innocent people were being harmed by Federal "feel good" laws?

Reiner Jr. was a meathead good-for-nothing.

He didn't have a real job.

 

[Slade3200]

Disagree all you want, I welcome good debate. Just don't deny reality and only tell half the story. Show at least a recognition as to why certain initiatives exist. Otherwise you are fitting the definition of ignorance.

Knowing why an initiative exists does not equate to agreeing that it should continue to exist.

That's what I said. People don't have to agree with me. I'm stating my opinion. But if you can't recognize our history of inequality that led to things like AA then you are not having an honest conversation.

Perhaps you should not ignorantly assume that someone that believes that it's time for AA to end is not aware of the history.

It wasn't mentioned in the OP in which I was responding to

Common knowledge is often not mentioned.

You add nothing to the conversation