In Islam, why did Allah trick Jesus' followers into believing he was crucified?

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Adam and Eve spoke Islam? If you think so ...

What? No... Adam and Eve weren't real people. That doesn't mean that Islam doesn't teach that they were Muslims. The mythological character of Adam is considered to be the first prophet in Islam.

Who is "they"? Do you like to speak with me about the Islam although you are not a Muslim but an english Dandy who likes to live in an artificial life? What's the sense of such a discussion? Non nobis domine non nobis sed nomini tuo da gloriam.

Yes. I do like to speak with you about Islam if you're going to engage in a discussion of it with me. And say what you want about the fact that my life is artificial (and technically you'd be right, since I was made by other people), but I'm not English. I'm Usonian. And yes, I do still understand a fair degree of Latin btw.

God created the world - I don't have any problem with any member of a serios religion - except he's an irrational murderous liar, like for example the atheists who are speaking in the name of god of the organisations "IS" or "Bokom Haram".

Which is totally irrelevant to Trinitarian Christianity being considered a nearly pagan religion in Islamic teaching... For your SA, the Islamic State and Boko Haram are very theistic. I would challenge you to find one of their soldiers and call him a mulhid if I were a less compassionate person.

I guess you are still speaking about what you are thinking what's important for Muslims. I don't know what I could answer to you if I would be a Muslim. I'm not a Muslim - I'm a Catholic. I don't speak in the name of Muslims, although I know some Muslims very well and we agree in religious questions enormously.

I'm not a Muslim. I'm a non-Muslim who's went to the effort of learning the basics of Islam from its primary sources and ulema. Some of the key doctrines of this religion deal with its conception of its relationship to the two previous Abrahamic religions. They are important for understanding the history and current form of the faith.

Paradise and heaven are the same for you? ... one place lies in the past - the other place in the future ... paradise is lost - heaven still not won ... Whatever - not so important in the moment although I could love it to discuss such themes, because I think you could be right - past and future are maybe the same in very long distances. Whatever: In the moment lots of people try to create more than only trouble between Christians and Muslims. I'm only attacking verbally the belief of muslimic friends if we together try to find out what's true or false. Today the conditions are not fair. To many criminals worldwide.

Eh. The idea behind the Christian/Islamic Heaven ultimately comes from the Zoroastrian pairidaeza anyway. Potayto, potaho. Pretty sure the root of the idea can be traced back to the lost relative paradise of Dilmun.

Simple minded idea of people who are thinking this would be justice. But to look for justice in this world here ... ¿how to say it now? ... is sometimes a little frustrating. Jesus loved Judas. Under no conditions he had allowed Judas to die instead of him on the cross. God is not a liar and it are not our thoughts what create reality.

Which is why I originally asked the OP. I wanted to know how it made sense for Allah to trick his own worshippers into creating a false religion he finds offensive. The best explanation I've heard has been from Muslim scholars and essentially amounts to a guess that it had to happen because that's how Allah wrote that it would happen before Creation. That leads into my other main logical issue with Islam over how we can have free will in a completely predetermined universe though... I'd rather not get too much into it here, but the idea that Allah wrote every moment of my entire life story before the Big Bang and I still have total free will to do whatever I want whenever just hurts my brain tbh.

Question? ...

The original post...

Why for heavens sake do you have a "question"?

Because I don't understand it and would like a nice, sensible explanation that ties everything up in a pretty little bow with zero loose ends.

Chinas culture died in the culture revolution. Today it's a western culture under motivation from communism and capitalism. A very boring story. China lost a lot. Much more boring: the time window where China and the USA still have a chance to bring the climate change under control ends in 2030.

That's highly arguable. It makes sense from the perspective that "China's culture" was that of the imperial era. It doesn't from the perspective of an anthropologist, which recognizes that cultures can shift radically and remain as alive as ever. It would be most easily compared to language. People commonly think that our Latin is dead. They're right, but only if you define Latin as the refined, semi-artificial form of Caesar and Cicero. The vulgar Latin with its unbroken history of use from the Italic tribes to our conversation right now is alive and well in, say, Mexico.

I subsumized some eastern structures under the expression West - Orient and Occident were once only 2 different sides of the same coin. Take mathematics as a symbol for our cultures. We got a part from India - the Arabs modified it - but the real storm started in Europe in Greece everyone in the world is using the same mathematical language because of the universality of thoughts.

You define India as a Western nation? Okay. Unconventional, but I'll accept it.

The word for god is god in the english speaking world. There's only one god so god is god. Another god is not existing except it is god. If someone likes to be more respectful and likes to show to be to shy to speak out his holy name then some people are writing g'd instead of god.

The word for the Abrahamic deity is "God" in English. That's not a proper name. It's a common noun used as a proper noun for lack of better alternative. It's kind of like calling your dog Dog. It's simple and effective but as much a title as a name. "God" in English can apply just as easily to any of the hundreds of thousands of gods humans have worshipped in our history. Zeus is a god but he isn't God, who is another god altogether.[/QUOTE]

 

[zaangalewa]

Adam and Eve spoke Islam? If you think so ...

What? No... Adam and Eve weren't real people.

I would say the theory of evolution tells us: Without any doubt an Adam and an Eve were real people. But the bible tells us a little more about what's important in this context.

That doesn't mean that Islam doesn't teach that they were Muslims. The mythological character of Adam is considered to be the first prophet in Islam.

So what? Muslims did not exist in the days of Adam.

Who is "they"? Do you like to speak with me about the Islam although you are not a Muslim but an english Dandy who likes to live in an artificial life? What's the sense of such a discussion? Non nobis domine non nobis sed nomini tuo da gloriam.

Yes. I do like to speak with you about Islam

Your Problem - not my problem. The Islam is not my religion, Nothing what I say has anything to do with the Islam. The first time I had the feeling I have to learn something about the Islam was 9/11. Meanwhile I have the feeling I know enough.

if you're going to engage in a discussion of it with me. And say what you want about the fact that my life is artificial (and technically you'd be right, since I was made by other people), but I'm not English. I'm Usonian.

Good grief - an englishman tries to tell me he's the architecture of the USA and likes to speak with me about the Islam. What a strange world.

And yes, I do still understand a fair degree of Latin btw.

God created the world - I don't have any problem with any member of a serios religion - except he's an irrational murderous liar, like for example the atheists who are speaking in the name of god of the organisations "IS" or "Bokom Haram".

Which is totally irrelevant to Trinitarian Christianity being considered a nearly pagan religion in Islamic teaching... For your SA, the Islamic State and Boko Haram are very theistic.

Criminal murderers are not respecting god.

I would challenge you to find one of their soldiers and call him a mulhid if I were a less compassionate person.

I guess you are still speaking about what you are thinking what's important for Muslims. I don't know what I could answer to you if I would be a Muslim. I'm not a Muslim - I'm a Catholic. I don't speak in the name of Muslims, although I know some Muslims very well and we agree in religious questions enormously.

I'm not a Muslim. I'm a non-Muslim who's went to the effort of learning the basics of Islam from its primary sources and ulema. Some of the key doctrines of this religion deal with its conception of its relationship to the two previous Abrahamic religions. They are important for understanding the history and current form of the faith.

You don't understand my faith and if it would be superflous for you to do so.

Paradise and heaven are the same for you? ... one place lies in the past - the other place in the future ... paradise is lost - heaven still not won ... Whatever - not so important in the moment although I could love it to discuss such themes, because I think you could be right - past and future are maybe the same in very long distances. Whatever: In the moment lots of people try to create more than only trouble between Christians and Muslims. I'm only attacking verbally the belief of muslimic friends if we together try to find out what's true or false. Today the conditions are not fair. To many criminals worldwide.

Eh. The idea behind the Christian/Islamic Heaven ultimately comes from the Zoroastrian pairidaeza anyway. Potayto, potaho. Pretty sure the root of the idea can be traced back to the lost relative paradise of Dilmun.

The idea behind dandies in America is that they travelled to America or they were born there. It was by the way a german idea to call America America that's why all Americans are Germans - nevertheless the Englishmen called our german sisters and brothers there "red indians". A mystery.

Simple minded idea of people who are thinking this would be justice. But to look for justice in this world here ... ¿how to say it now? ... is sometimes a little frustrating. Jesus loved Judas. Under no conditions he had allowed Judas to die instead of him on the cross. God is not a liar and it are not our thoughts what create reality.

Which is why I originally asked the OP. I wanted to know how it made sense for Allah to trick his own worshippers into creating a false religion he finds offensive. The best explanation I've heard has been from Muslim scholars and essentially amounts to a guess that it had to happen because that's how Allah wrote that it would happen before Creation. That leads into my other main logical issue with Islam over how we can have free will in a completely predetermined universe though... I'd rather not get too much into it here, but the idea that Allah wrote every moment of my entire life story before the Big Bang and I still have total free will to do whatever I want whenever just hurts my brain tbh.

Don't get a headache. Today you are destroyable - Yesterday you was destroyable - a million years ago you was destroyable. So something what you are now existed a million years ago. Now think back in the same way to the big bang. Something what you are now (the reason for your existance) existed in the first planksecond. Congrats: you are 13.8 billion years old. This doesn't mean your future is completly in your own hands or completly out of your own hands.

Question? ...

The original post...

Why for heavens sake do you have a "question"?

Because I don't understand it and would like a nice, sensible explanation that ties everything up in a pretty little bow with zero loose ends.

By the way - CERN started again on Eastersunday. With much more energy. Good

Chinas culture died in the culture revolution. Today it's a western culture under motivation from communism and capitalism. A very boring story. China lost a lot. Much more boring: the time window where China and the USA still have a chance to bring the climate change under control ends in 2030.

That's highly arguable. It makes sense from the perspective that "China's culture" was that of the imperial era. It doesn't from the perspective of an anthropologist, which recognizes that cultures can shift radically and remain as alive as ever. It would be most easily compared to language. People commonly think that our Latin is dead. They're right, but only if you define Latin as the refined, semi-artificial form of Caesar and Cicero. The vulgar Latin with its unbroken history of use from the Italic tribes to our conversation right now is alive and well in, say, Mexico.

Here are learning lots of pupils Latin in school.

I subsumized some eastern structures under the expression West - Orient and Occident were once only 2 different sides of the same coin. Take mathematics as a symbol for our cultures. We got a part from India - the Arabs modified it - but the real storm started in Europe in Greece everyone in the world is using the same mathematical language because of the universality of thoughts.

You define India as a Western nation? Okay. Unconventional, but I'll accept it.

This was not what I was thinking about. Our line goes over Rome and Greece to Egypt. This line is also existing in India because of the destrcutions of the british empire and the vacuum what was filled with the british culture - but India has also an own line that is unknown to me.

The word for god is god in the english speaking world. There's only one god so god is god. Another god is not existing except it is god. If someone likes to be more respectful and likes to show to be to shy to speak out his holy name then some people are writing g'd instead of god.

The word for the Abrahamic deity is "God" in English. That's not a proper name. It's a common noun used as a proper noun for lack of better alternative. It's kind of like calling your dog Dog. It's simple and effective but as much a title as a name. "God" in English can apply just as easily to any of the hundreds of thousands of gods humans have worshipped in our history. Zeus is a god but he isn't God, who is another god altogether.

God and gods are completly different expressions. But anyway you will believe whatever you like to believe.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

I would say the theory of evolution tells us: Without any doubt an Adam and an Eve were real people. But the bible tells us a little more about what's important in this context.

"Mitochondrial Adam" and "Mitochondrial Eve" are not the same as the mythological Adam and Eve from the Bible. They are named after the mythological characters because they are, respectively, our latest common male ancestor and our latest common female ancestor. They didn't even live in the same time period.

So what? Muslims did not exist in the days of Adam.

It doesn't matter. Like almost everything else you've said in hijacking the thread so far, this has zero relevance to anything or anyone. Jews believe that their entire tribe was enslaved by the Egyptian government and forced to bake mud bricks. Their escape from that is the entire point behind their recent Passover celebrations. The historical fact is that the events they believe in never actually happened, but that doesn't matter when it comes to people's beliefs. You believe that Adam from the Bible and Adam our most recent common male ancestor are the same guy. The fact that this is completely wrong does not change the fact that you believe it. Muslims also believe that we're descended from a ninety foot tall giant who was sentenced to death for eating a piece of fruit. None of that actually happened, but they believe it anyway because that's how religion works.

Your Problem - not my problem. The Islam is not my religion, Nothing what I say has anything to do with the Islam. The first time I had the feeling I have to learn something about the Islam was 9/11. Meanwhile I have the feeling I know enough.

You don't really know much from what I'm seeing. Why are you trying to answer a question about Islam that you had no idea was even asked until I had to restate the original post you clearly didn't read to you by telling me the painfully obvious fact that nothing you say has anything to do with Islam and is essentially a waste of time? You can't be as unintelligent as you're presenting yourself here. Please, please tell me you're not this dull...

Good grief - an englishman tries to tell me he's the architecture of the USA and likes to speak with me about the Islam. What a strange world.

I'm going to try to explain this to you very simply, because I'm learning that you need that. When I was a baby, my parents taught me English. As a child, I used English exclusively and learned more of it in school. I know the English language very well. Now... brace yourself. This might be hard for you to understand. It might take a lot of effort and could even give you a headache if you're not careful. Just bear with me. I'm a citizen of the United States of America. I am not a dual citizen. I have no known English ancestry. I speak the English language. I understand that this concept that someone can be fluent in English without being a citizen of the UK is very hard for someone of your mental capacity but I'm confident that even you will be able to understand it with enough time and effort. I believe in you.

Criminal murderers are not respecting god.

Read all of this book and get back to me: Surat Al- Alaq - The Noble Qur an -

You don't understand my faith and if it would be superflous for you to do so.

You've explicitly told me that it is not your faith. It's sad that I have to remind you that you're a Catholic and not a Muslim. I understand that you have clear mental deficiencies, but holy shit. You should not have to be reminded what religion you are...

The idea behind dandies in America is that they travelled to America or they were born there. It was by the way a german idea to call America America that's why all Americans are Germans - nevertheless the Englishmen called our german sisters and brothers there "red indians". A mystery.

Are you Amish or something? My ethnicity is none of your business, but I'm mostly of Irish and Polish descent, with fuck knows but probably Russian Jewish, Scottish, French, and German on my mother's side to my knowledge. That has nothing to do with my nationality, which is American. I'm an US citizen. I live in the United States of America. I was born here to English-speaking, non-English parents who were also US citizens.

Don't get a headache. Today you are destroyable - Yesterday you was destroyable - a million years ago you was destroyable. So something what you are now existed a million years ago. Now think back in the same way to the big bang. Something what you are now (the reason for your existance) existed in the first planksecond. Congrats: you are 13.8 billion years old. This doesn't mean your future is completly in your own hands or completly out of your own hands.

No offense, but I'm not going to take any answer you give me to my original question seriously. You didn't even fucking know I asked it until I told you. You just saw the thread and jumped in to defend Catholicism or whatever the fuck you're trying to do here. What are you trying to do? What exactly is the point of this conversation that we are having?

By the way - CERN started again on Eastersunday. With much more energy. Good

Good. I'm glad. Maybe they'll find more cool stuff.

Here are learning lots of pupils Latin in school.

You're from a better city than I am. My school only offered Spanish and French. Spanish is the direct continuation of Latin though, which was my point. It never one day just stopped being Latin. It changed and adopted new words and grammar and lost features over almost two thousand years of being spoken in a variety of places and cultures. French is kind of the same, but it's more like a Germanic-Latin pidgin in a way.

This was not what I was thinking about. Our line goes over Rome and Greece to Egypt. This line is also existing in India because of the destrcutions of the british empire and the vacuum what was filled with the british culture - but India has also an own line that is unknown to me.

"Our line"?

God and gods are completly different expressions. But anyway you will believe whatever you like to believe.

Oh, I will. Don't worry about that. And I like to believe in the current model of history, which includes abiogenesis and evolution.

 

[zaangalewa]

I would say the theory of evolution tells us: Without any doubt an Adam and an Eve were real people. But the bible tells us a little more about what's important in this context.

"Mitochondrial Adam" and "Mitochondrial Eve" are not the same as the mythological Adam and Eve from the Bible.

Don't try to tell me how I have to interpret the existance of my own grandparents, please.

They are named after the mythological characters because they are, respectively, our latest common male ancestor and our latest common female ancestor. They didn't even live in the same time period.

Time is a big word.

So what? Muslims did not exist in the days of Adam.

It doesn't matter. Like almost everything else you've said in hijacking the thread so far, this has zero relevance to anything or anyone. Jews believe that their entire tribe was enslaved by the Egyptian government and forced to bake mud bricks. Their escape from that is the entire point behind their recent Passover celebrations. The historical fact is that the events they believe in never actually happened, but that doesn't matter when it comes to people's beliefs. You believe that

I believe what?

Adam from the Bible and Adam our most recent common male ancestor are the same guy. The fact that this is completely wrong does not change the fact that you believe it. Muslims also believe that we're descended from a ninety foot tall giant who was sentenced to death for eating a piece of fruit. None of that actually happened, but they believe it anyway because that's how religion works.

Interesting what's the belief of Californians about the belief of other people. But indeed the most popular beLIEF in the wrolfd isd 2yOU AER WRIOGN2:

Your Problem - not my problem. The Islam is not my religion, Nothing what I say has anything to do with the Islam. The first time I had the feeling I have to learn something about the Islam was 9/11. Meanwhile I have the feeling I know enough.

You don't really know much from what I'm seeing. Why are you trying to answer a question about Islam that you had no idea was even asked until I had to restate the original post you clearly didn't read to you by telling me the painfully obvious fact that nothing you say has anything to do with Islam and is essentially a waste of time? You can't be as unintelligent as you're presenting yourself here. Please, please tell me you're not this dull...

Good grief - an englishman tries to tell me he's the architecture of the USA and likes to speak with me about the Islam. What a strange world.

I'm going to try to explain this to you very simply, because I'm learning that you need that. When I was a baby, my parents taught me English. As a child, I used English exclusively and learned more of it in school. I know the English language very well. Now... brace yourself. This might be hard for you to understand. It might take a lot of effort and could even give you a headache if you're not careful. Just bear with me. I'm a citizen of the United States of America. I am not a dual citizen. I have no known English ancestry. I speak the English language. I understand that this concept that someone can be fluent in English without being a citizen of the UK is very hard for someone of your mental capacity but I'm confident that even you will be able to understand it with enough time and effort. I believe in you.

Criminal murderers are not respecting god.

Read all of this book and get back to me: Surat Al- Alaq - The Noble Qur an -

You don't understand my faith and if it would be superflous for you to do so.

You've explicitly told me that it is not your faith. It's sad that I have to remind you that you're a Catholic and not a Muslim. I understand that you have clear mental deficiencies, but holy shit. You should not have to be reminded what religion you are...

The idea behind dandies in America is that they travelled to America or they were born there. It was by the way a german idea to call America America that's why all Americans are Germans - nevertheless the Englishmen called our german sisters and brothers there "red indians". A mystery.

Are you Amish or something? My ethnicity is none of your business, but I'm mostly of Irish and Polish descent, with fuck knows but probably Russian Jewish, Scottish, French, and German on my mother's side to my knowledge. That has nothing to do with my nationality, which is American. I'm an US citizen. I live in the United States of America. I was born here to English-speaking, non-English parents who were also US citizens.

Don't get a headache. Today you are destroyable - Yesterday you was destroyable - a million years ago you was destroyable. So something what you are now existed a million years ago. Now think back in the same way to the big bang. Something what you are now (the reason for your existance) existed in the first planksecond. Congrats: you are 13.8 billion years old. This doesn't mean your future is completly in your own hands or completly out of your own hands.

No offense, but I'm not going to take any answer you give me to my original question seriously. You didn't even fucking know I asked it until I told you. You just saw the thread and jumped in to defend Catholicism or whatever the fuck you're trying to do here. What are you trying to do? What exactly is the point of this conversation that we are having?

By the way - CERN started again on Eastersunday. With much more energy. Good

Good. I'm glad. Maybe they'll find more cool stuff.

Here are learning lots of pupils Latin in school.

You're from a better city than I am. My school only offered Spanish and French. Spanish is the direct continuation of Latin though, which was my point. It never one day just stopped being Latin. It changed and adopted new words and grammar and lost features over almost two thousand years of being spoken in a variety of places and cultures. French is kind of the same, but it's more like a Germanic-Latin pidgin in a way.

"Our line"?

[/QUOTE]

 

[zaangalewa]

I would say the theory of evolution tells us: Without any doubt an Adam and an Eve were real people. But the bible tells us a little more about what's important in this context.

"Mitochondrial Adam" and "Mitochondrial Eve" are not the same as the mythological Adam and Eve from the Bible.

Don't try to tell me how I have to interpret the existance of my own grandparents, please.

They are named after the mythological characters because they are, respectively, our latest common male ancestor and our latest common female ancestor. They didn't even live in the same time period.

Time is a big word.

So what? Muslims did not exist in the days of Adam.

It doesn't matter. Like almost everything else you've said in hijacking the thread so far, this has zero relevance to anything or anyone. Jews believe that their entire tribe was enslaved by the Egyptian government and forced to bake mud bricks. Their escape from that is the entire point behind their recent Passover celebrations. The historical fact is that the events they believe in never actually happened, but that doesn't matter when it comes to people's beliefs. You believe that

I believe what?

Adam from the Bible and Adam our most recent common male ancestor are the same guy. The fact that this is completely wrong does not change the fact that you believe it. Muslims also believe that we're descended from a ninety foot tall giant who was sentenced to death for eating a piece of fruit. None of that actually happened, but they believe it anyway because that's how religion works.

Interesting what's the belief of Californians about the belief of other people. But indeed the most popular belief in the world is "I am right and you are wong and if not I will 'kill' you".

Your Problem - not my problem. The Islam is not my religion, Nothing what I say has anything to do with the Islam. The first time I had the feeling I have to learn something about the Islam was 9/11. Meanwhile I have the feeling I know enough.

You don't really know much from what I'm seeing. Why are you trying to answer a question about Islam that you had no idea was even asked until I had to restate the original post you clearly didn't read to you by telling me the painfully obvious fact that nothing you say has anything to do with Islam and is essentially a waste of time? You can't be as unintelligent as you're presenting yourself here.

Please, please tell me you're not this dull...

Dull? ... langweilig, dumpf, dumm, begriffsstutzig, beschränkt, stumpfsinnig, eintönig, blödsinnig, trüb, düster, stumpf, reizlos, öde, geistlos, matt, glanzlos, schwerfällig, lustlos, träge, trist, schleppend, uninteressant, müde, flau, einförmig, bedeckt, blind, platt, abgeschmackt, kontrastarm, kontrastlos, verhangen ... I guess I understand what you like to say to me. Why do you waste your time to speak with a German if you are able to erase Germany with a nuke from this planet or to erase all life from this planet by doing nothing against the so called "climate change"?

Good grief - an englishman tries to tell me he's the architecture of the USA and likes to speak with me about the Islam. What a strange world.

I'm going to try to explain this to you very simply, because I'm learning that you need that. When I was a baby, my parents taught me English.

My parents taught me the "doobidoobidoo" language. I answered with a smiley. I was always good in computer science. A little time later I spoke with my friends birish. A longer time laterer I learned German. Then I learned Latin. I was the worst student of Latin the world ever saw. Neverthelless I learned to love this language.

As a child, I used English exclusively and learned more of it in school. I know the English language very well.

English is a language? Thought it's a german dialect.

Now... brace yourself. This might be hard for you to understand. It might take a lot of effort and could even give you a headache if you're not careful. Just bear with me. I'm a citizen of the United States of America.

Should it not be "I'm a proud citizen of the United States"? What say your authorities to this faux-pas?

I am not a dual citizen.

I'm married.

I have no known English ancestry.

Ancestry? ... Ah: „Abstammung“ ... David was one of my grandfathers. He lived about 3000 years ago - 100 generations - so he was one of about 633,825,300,114,114,700,748,351,602,688 of my grandcestors.

I speak the English language.

And let me say: You speak a lot. I guess the people in the anglo-american culture are calling this "small-talk". The german equivalent would be: A: "You are an idiot!" B: "Do you think so?" A: "Yes!" B:"Aha".

I understand that this concept that someone can be fluent in English without being a citizen of the UK is very hard for someone of your mental capacity

"low mental capacity" please. Someone could think you are polite otherwise. But you are an anglo-american from California and it's in your responsibility to enlarge the bad image of the USA and the West Coats.

but I'm confident that even you will be able to understand it with enough time and effort. I believe in you.

I see: "confident" and "believe" are two christian words which you hate.

Criminal murderers are not respecting god.

Read all of this book and get back to me: Surat Al- Alaq - The Noble Qur an -

If I like to know something about the Islam then I will ask a Muslim who speaks German and in 10 seconds I know what I like to know.

You don't understand my faith and if it would be superflous for you to do so.

You've explicitly told me that it is not your faith. It's sad that I have to remind you that you're a Catholic and not a Muslim. I understand that you have clear mental deficiencies, but holy shit. You should not have to be reminded what religion you are...

The reilgion of the book. Head down! Here it comes.

The idea behind dandies in America is that they travelled to America or they were born there. It was by the way a german idea to call America America that's why all Americans are Germans - nevertheless the Englishmen called our german sisters and brothers there "red indians". A mystery.

Are you Amish or something?

Yes. But why don‘t pass books into monitors?

My ethnicity is none of your business, but I'm mostly of Irish and Polish descent, with fuck knows

"with fucks know" . I‘m sure this in not translatable into the german language.

but probably Russian Jewish, Scottish, French, and German on my mother's side to my knowledge.
That has nothing to do with my nationality, which is American. I'm an US citizen. I live in the United States of America. I was born here to English-speaking, non-English parents who were also US citizens.

Don't get a headache. Today you are destroyable - Yesterday you was destroyable - a million years ago you was destroyable. So something what you are now existed a million years ago. Now think back in the same way to the big bang. Something what you are now (the reason for your existance) existed in the first planksecond. Congrats: you are 13.8 billion years old. This doesn't mean your future is completly in your own hands or completly out of your own hands.

No offense,

Offense?

but I'm not going to take any answer you give me to my original question seriously. You didn't even fucking know I asked it until I told you. You just saw the thread and jumped in to defend Catholicism or whatever the fuck you're trying to do here. What are you trying to do? What exactly is the point of this conversation that we are having?

By the way - CERN started again on Eastersunday. With much more energy. Good

Good. I'm glad. Maybe they'll find more cool stuff.

Here are learning lots of pupils Latin in school.

You're from a better city than I am. My school only offered Spanish and French. Spanish is the direct continuation of Latin though, which was my point. It never one day just stopped being Latin. It changed and adopted new words and grammar and lost features over almost two thousand years of being spoken in a variety of places and cultures. French is kind of the same, but it's more like a Germanic-Latin pidgin in a way.

"Our line"?

Okay - I'm always learning - but what for heavens sake is this here? You lost completly every form of concentration and awareness.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

Okay. I'm done here. Keep the thread. Do whatever you want with it. Might as well be talking to a liberal...

 

[zaangalewa]

Okay. I'm done here. Keep the thread. Do whatever you want with it. Might as well be talking to a liberal...

"Liberal" means Commie in the USA and means Capitalist in Germany. In both cases it has to do with materialism - what's an important side of the world but it's only one side. There are more sides. I believe and trust in the spirit of god and not in winners or losers.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

I just don't think we're on the same wavelength. I was asking about the logic behind Allah tricking people into starting/following a false religion. I'm not really even sure what you're talking about anymore. I've noticed that you've randomly started this kind of "conversation" with me a couple times before now.

 

[zaangalewa]

I just don't think we're on the same wavelength.

Hopefully

I was asking about the logic

God is logos

behind Allah

god

tricking people

god is truth <=> god is not a liar

into starting/following a false religion. ...

?

 

[Muslim75]

Does anything about Islam make sense to you?

So much there is logic, sanity and soundness in Islam that you think it is above perfection.

My opinion is that other religions, on the other hand and atheism don't make any sense.

That's one thing I've never understood. I get that Muslims believe he was taken bodily up to Jannah before he could be executed. I get that they believe Allah transfigured Judas to look like Jesus so he would be crucified instead. I get that Allah caused Jesus' believers to think that Jesus rose from the dead so they would found Christianity. I just don't understand how that makes any fucking sense...

God Almighty did not trick Jesus' followers so that they would found Christianity. Jesus had people with him who believed in him as a prophet, not God. They were the Disciples. One of them betrayed him.

 

[Ernie S.]

There is no sanity in a religion founded by an insane prophet.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

God Almighty did not trick Jesus' followers so that they would found Christianity. Jesus had people with him who believed in him as a prophet, not God. They were the Disciples. One of them betrayed him.

Allah transfigured Judas so that it was appear that Jesus was being crucified. He allowed the people to continue thinking that Jesus was crucified. He allowed Saul/Paul to corrupt what was then the true religion and left the world without a true religion for 600 years until sending an angel to an illiterate Arabian backwater merchant. The reasoning given from what I remember is that Allah is the best of deceivers, which implies that all of this was intentional. What proves that it was intentional is the doctrine that he wrote the entire story of time and everything that would ever happen before Creation. If he wrote everyone's life before creating the world, then he wrote that Paul would do that. He wrote that all of his true followers would be tricked into a pagan religion by traitors in the church leadership.

 

[Ernie S.]

logical right there..... NOT.

 

[Anonymous1977]

That's one thing I've never understood. I get that Muslims believe he was taken bodily up to Jannah before he could be executed. I get that they believe Allah transfigured Judas to look like Jesus so he would be crucified instead. I get that Allah caused Jesus' believers to think that Jesus rose from the dead so they would found Christianity. I just don't understand how that makes any fucking sense...

Greetings, Mr. San Patricio,

I'm presently agnostic but I did learn in my studies about Islam that all Muslims don't believe all the same things...so you have done some over-generalizing but my belief about the Abrahamic God & Jesus is that Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/the Father or however you call Him wanted to turn the people's hearts away from faith in Jesus for a while due to their unbelief. It wasn't a "trick" as you said lol, I think...I think it was rather just similar to this Christian Scripture:

"(11)And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (12)That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thes. 2:11-12

Peace.
Anonymous1977

 

[there4eyeM]

There is much talk about 'God', but precious little understanding.

 

[zaangalewa]

That's one thing I've never understood. I get that Muslims believe he was taken bodily up to Jannah before he could be executed. I get that they believe Allah transfigured Judas to look like Jesus so he would be crucified instead. I get that Allah caused Jesus' believers to think that Jesus rose from the dead so they would found Christianity. I just don't understand how that makes any fucking sense...

Greetings, Mr. San Patricio,

I'm presently agnostic

Agnosticism is a philosophy what shows that it is impossible to know wether god is existing or not existing. A philosophy - not a belief - not a religion. For a philosopher - or any other scientist - it's impossible to believe that god is existing and not existing the same time - although god could indeed exist and not exist the same time. God created everything - even existance itselve - out of nothing. So even the attribute "existance" is not simple, if we think about god. So: Why are we not able to believe that god is existing and not existing the same time? Very easy: because we kill our logic if we think so! The philosophy agnosticism forces philosophers - and also scientists because science is philosophy too - to do a decision first, If they like to speak about god - they have to decide what's their belief. And this belief or paradigma is not able to be "agnosticism". The universe of the philosophy agnosticism is "atheism" and "theism". A very small universe - specially for me and other believers and specially if I think about, that no one belongs to the religion "theism". This poor reduction is nearly senseless but the decision is important. I'm for example a Christian and I never would call myselve "theist" - because this says nearly nothing about my own religion. Sure I believe in god - but yesterday for example I was in my catholic Cathedral and read some words in the public bible there - then I spoke a little while with my mother Mary - she had a gothic face and a gothic Jesus in this case, very nice, very impressing - full of harmony, sovereignity and peace. She's a happy mother - in all times and all places of all cultures. I enlightened a little candle there in front of her feet - special candles with reduced carbon emissions - and I payed two times the money for the candle, so someone who has no money can enlighten a candle too and also because I had only the money for two candles and not for three candles (for me - for the people I know - and for the people I don't know) - and I had after my little prayer - it was a short inner view on my frustrations and hopes and a thought like "Hi Mary - you are really beautiful - hope everything is okay" - the impression Mary felt a little lonesome and said to me I should visit her more often. But I promised nothing - I know myselve. This all were about 5 minutes of my lifetime.

but I did learn in my studies about Islam that all Muslims don't believe all the same things...so you have done some over-generalizing but my belief about the Abrahamic God & Jesus is that Allah/Jehovah/Yahweh/the Father or however you call Him

Some names are 'allowed' to use - others not.

wanted to turn the people's hearts away from faith in Jesus for a while due to their unbelief. It wasn't a "trick" as you said lol, I think...I think it was rather just similar to this Christian Scripture:

"(11)And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (12)That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thes. 2:11-12

-----
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
-----

-----

Peace.
Anonymous1977

Peace? ... the english language has a word for "peace"? ... Astonishing ... How came this word from Mexico into the States? Whatever: As far as I heard Mohammed never said that Judas was crucified instead of Jesus.

 

[AbdulWahid Hamid]

god is everywhere and we only need to believe in the almighty.i don't know whether this is true or not that Allah tricked Jesus' followers but sure about that both are god and are worshiped.It is a very small universe to find god.Islamic Books have their own philosophy about god and Christianity had its own beliefs but one thing is must that both provide knowledge about enlightenment and truth.

 

[Asclepias]

That's one thing I've never understood. I get that Muslims believe he was taken bodily up to Jannah before he could be executed. I get that they believe Allah transfigured Judas to look like Jesus so he would be crucified instead. I get that Allah caused Jesus' believers to think that Jesus rose from the dead so they would found Christianity. I just don't understand how that makes any fucking sense...

Makes about as much sense as a virgin having a child from an invisible sky fairy that then winds up killing that child to save some people that still have a 50/50 shot of going to hell.

 

[Pedro de San Patricio]

That's one thing I've never understood. I get that Muslims believe he was taken bodily up to Jannah before he could be executed. I get that they believe Allah transfigured Judas to look like Jesus so he would be crucified instead. I get that Allah caused Jesus' believers to think that Jesus rose from the dead so they would found Christianity. I just don't understand how that makes any fucking sense...

Makes about as much sense as a virgin having a child from an invisible sky fairy that then winds up killing that child to save some people that still have a 50/50 shot of going to hell.

Agreed but irrelevant to a zaangalewa level.

 

[tinydancer]

That's one thing I've never understood. I get that Muslims believe he was taken bodily up to Jannah before he could be executed. I get that they believe Allah transfigured Judas to look like Jesus so he would be crucified instead. I get that Allah caused Jesus' believers to think that Jesus rose from the dead so they would found Christianity. I just don't understand how that makes any fucking sense...

I understand this and that the purpose of this was to fool His enemies and save Jesus. Not to fool his believers. Can you give me where I'm missing the last part?

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified. It was the plan of Jesus’ enemies to crucify him, but God saved him and raised him up to Him. And the likeness of Jesus was put over another man. Jesus’ enemies took this man and crucified him, thinking that he was Jesus. God has said:

...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)...

(Quran, 4:157)

Islam Guide What Do Muslims Believe about Jesus