Debate Now Incivility

[Alex.]

So then this is your personal perception and interpretation. That is how incivility starts when one person either misinterprets or attempts to force their own measuring rod down the throats of others. To me that is an example of incivility.

If you want to suggest that may fall within the parameters we can establish as incivility then we all can weigh in and determine if it is.

Everybody is entitled to their own measuring rods of anything, but in the SDZ the OP gets to set the rules for the discussion. In this discussion, my rules are that nobody will be allowed to accuse, attack, or use any other ad hominem technique directed at any individual or group at USMB or elsewhere with impunity. I also reserved the right, via Rule #2, to define what ad hominem is. Those who don't like my rules are in no way obligated to participate on this thread at all, and are quite within their allowed rights to start their own thread with any sort of rules they prefer.

There isn't anything else to say on that particular subject, so I suggest that those who care to do so enjoy discussing their perspectives on the topic.

I understand that but who exactly was attacked and where was the incivility? Telling someone to leave the thread is incivility in action because they expressed an opinion within the rules that you set.

You can read the thread as well as I can quote it. Nobody was told to leave the thread, but that is offered as an option for those who do not wish to participate in this discussion on the terms set down for this discussion. If enforcing the rules set for this thread is interpreted as being uncivil, those who feel that way about it probably should find something else to do.

Now can we please return to the topic? Thank you very much.

Suggesting someone leave, asking someone to leave, forcing someone to leave, anything that makes a person uncomfortable or causes them to feel trepidation in what they consider a valid response is incivility. That is on topic and we do not need government intervention to cause that behavior top stop, we just had a few posters object to your post, that is the way people in a society deem what is incivility and how to stop the behavior.

So what is more uncivil: breaking the stated rules or enforcing the stated rules? Coming onto a thread with the intent of derailing it and/or starting a fight or asking such people to find something else to do?

Disagreeing with somebody or getting in a huff because somebody dared disagree?

If enforcing the stated rules and/or giving people who don't want to follow them other options is to be interpreted as incivility, then so be it. I don't see it that way and probably never will.

If a rule was broken you would have my 100% support but you have not proven it was broken. That is an example of incivility

 

[JakeStarkey]

"A characterization of "RW bullies" is ad hominem and inappropriate for this thread." How so? Is "RW bullies" a poster here?

It was used as a derogatory characterization of a group of people at USMB in a way that cannot be supported by any evidence in fact but can be explained only on a basis of personal prejudice or perception.

But such personal prejudice and/or perception is a frequent tool used to accomplish incivility at USMB, in the MSM, in social media, and in government as expressed in the OP.

So then this is your personal perception and interpretation. That is how incivility starts when one person either misinterprets or attempts to force their own measuring rod down the throats of others. To me that is an example of incivility.

If you want to suggest that may fall within the parameters we can establish as incivility then we all can weigh in and determine if it is.

Everybody is entitled to their own measuring rods of anything, but in the SDZ the OP gets to set the rules for the discussion. In this discussion, my rules are that nobody will be allowed to accuse, attack, or use any other ad hominem technique directed at any individual or group at USMB or elsewhere with impunity. I also reserved the right, via Rule #2, to define what ad hominem is. Those who don't like my rules are in no way obligated to participate on this thread at all, and are quite within their allowed rights to start their own thread with any sort of rules they prefer.

There isn't anything else to say on that particular subject, so I suggest that those who care to do so enjoy discussing their perspectives on the topic.

I understand that but who exactly was attacked and where was the incivility? Telling someone to leave the thread is incivility in action because they expressed an opinion within the rules that you set.

You can read the thread as well as I can quote it. Nobody was told to leave the thread, but that is offered as an option for those who do not wish to participate in this discussion on the terms set down for this discussion. If enforcing the rules set for this thread is interpreted as being uncivil, those who feel that way about it probably should find something else to do.

Now can we please return to the topic? Thank you very much.

By your standards set in the OP, you are being uncivil. Your issue at the center is you simply don't like being told, "You are wrong." That is not being uncivil.

 

[ChrisL]

Also, some people get in their head that they just don't like you . . . for whatever reason and sometimes for no good reason at all, and then they will just wait for an opportunity to attack you, and sometimes quite viciously and personally I might add.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't really think Foxy has been uncivil at all. If anything, she is probably one of the MOST civil people on this entire board, at least as far as my experiences with her go. I like and respect her.

 

[Alex.]

It was used as a derogatory characterization of a group of people at USMB in a way that cannot be supported by any evidence in fact but can be explained only on a basis of personal prejudice or perception.

But such personal prejudice and/or perception is a frequent tool used to accomplish incivility at USMB, in the MSM, in social media, and in government as expressed in the OP.

So then this is your personal perception and interpretation. That is how incivility starts when one person either misinterprets or attempts to force their own measuring rod down the throats of others. To me that is an example of incivility.

If you want to suggest that may fall within the parameters we can establish as incivility then we all can weigh in and determine if it is.

Everybody is entitled to their own measuring rods of anything, but in the SDZ the OP gets to set the rules for the discussion. In this discussion, my rules are that nobody will be allowed to accuse, attack, or use any other ad hominem technique directed at any individual or group at USMB or elsewhere with impunity. I also reserved the right, via Rule #2, to define what ad hominem is. Those who don't like my rules are in no way obligated to participate on this thread at all, and are quite within their allowed rights to start their own thread with any sort of rules they prefer.

There isn't anything else to say on that particular subject, so I suggest that those who care to do so enjoy discussing their perspectives on the topic.

I understand that but who exactly was attacked and where was the incivility? Telling someone to leave the thread is incivility in action because they expressed an opinion within the rules that you set.

You can read the thread as well as I can quote it. Nobody was told to leave the thread, but that is offered as an option for those who do not wish to participate in this discussion on the terms set down for this discussion. If enforcing the rules set for this thread is interpreted as being uncivil, those who feel that way about it probably should find something else to do.

Now can we please return to the topic? Thank you very much.

By your standards set in the OP, you are being uncivil. Your issue at the center is you simply don't like being told, "You are wrong." That is not being uncivil.

Bada- BING


Should I stay or should I go now?

 

[jillian]

[

Because, from what I've witnessed, it is because of the expectation that "everyone must agree with me," "Notice me," or "Accept me."

not really.

on this board, it's largely certain trolls on the right who call everyone "moron" or stupid and then cry when they get responded to in kind.

then there are the people who address everyone else with contempt.

then there are people who have different standards for what is "civil" depending on whether they agree with you or not.

 

[Foxfyre]

I do not believe I have ever gone out of my way to be uncivil to anybody on line or in real life.

Not to belabor the point or to criticize but I want to make this one point because it pertains to what I call "perceived incivility".

I agree that in your mind you are being absolutely truthful when you made the statement that I quoted above.

So what you actually posted was unintentionally uncivil and came across as bullying to those reading it.

I fully appreciated that at the time and the only point I am trying to make here is all of us are human and make mistakes from time to time, including myself.

So applying the benefit of the doubt rule was appropriate in that case and I deliberately chose not to take umbrage and instead argued the merits of what you were trying to say as opposed to the substance of what you actually posted.

Yes, it was a fine line that you believe I crossed and I don't but neither of us were going to accomplish anything if we allowed that to degenerate into incivility.

So it was a matter of looking for common ground instead of butting heads as we so often do.

Only by allowing each other some leeway are we ever going to be able to go along in order to get along.

I appreciate allowing the matter to drop--which you didn't of course as the post I'm quoting here testifies --but enforcing the stated rules of a thread are no more bullying here than is a mod who enforces the rules of the board bullying. Stating the consequences of breaking the rules here is no more bullying than is the police officer explaining the consequences of breaking the law bullying.

I explained what the infraction was and why it was an infraction. If that causes me to be called a bully so be it. If that causes me to be accused of incivility so be it. You can count on me doing it pretty much every time it happens.

Now can this be discussed civilly? Absolutely. We pretty much have. But to continue to belabor the point is in itself a form of incivility and if for the purpose of derailing the thread can be a form of bullying. Most especially if one calls in his/her friends for back up and to pile on.

The incivility this thread is about is not about enforcing existing rules or keeping order. The topic is not about whether Foxfyre is or is not civil. It is about deliberate rudeness to people who did nothing to merit rudeness. It is going out of one's way to use coarse or vulgar language that adds nothing to the discussion. It is insulting people, embarrassing them, belittling them, putting them down, badgering them. or trying to make things miserable for them for no other reason than they aren't likable or said something 'wrong'.

 

[MaryL]

Incivility, I recently put a dash cam in my car. After nearly being T-boned by idiots driving like morons. 3 times in March. But I neglected to put a camera facing rearward, the speeding, Tailgating, aggressive driving and hostility. 20 years ago, I didn't need a camera to monitor incivility. That is how bad this has gotten.

 

[Foxfyre]

[

Because, from what I've witnessed, it is because of the expectation that "everyone must agree with me," "Notice me," or "Accept me."

not really.

on this board, it's largely certain trolls on the right who call everyone "moron" or stupid and then cry when they get responded to in kind.

then there are the people who address everyone else with contempt.

then there are people who have different standards for what is "civil" depending on whether they agree with you or not.

Rule #1 is still in effect Jillian. Please respect the spirit of it. I agree being called 'stupid' and 'moron' and worse is some of the most blatant illustrations of incivility here at USMB. But it isn't trolls on the right who call me or some others that. Unless you can prove that it is 'only certain trolls on the right' who are culpable, to characterize them that way is ad hominem.

Let's keep this discussion civil and keep ideologies out of it as much as possible.

 

[Foxfyre]

Incivility, I recently put a dash cam in my car. After nearly being T-boned by idiots driving like morons. 3 times in March. But I neglected to put a camera facing rearward, the speeding, Tailgating, aggressive driving and hostility. 20 years ago, I didn't need a camera to monitor incivility. That is how bad this has gotten.

Well if that is on purpose, that does take incivility to a whole different level, but I am not so concerned about the incivility that constitutes breaking existing laws--libel, slander, assault, negligence, etc. We do have laws against those kinds of things in which there are provable damages.

But the damage to our well being and shared lives together as a society that is full of angry, hateful accusations, blame, and insults that composes most of the daily incivility isn't so measurable. But I sure see it as a reality.

 

[Foxfyre]

So then this is your personal perception and interpretation. That is how incivility starts when one person either misinterprets or attempts to force their own measuring rod down the throats of others. To me that is an example of incivility.

If you want to suggest that may fall within the parameters we can establish as incivility then we all can weigh in and determine if it is.

Everybody is entitled to their own measuring rods of anything, but in the SDZ the OP gets to set the rules for the discussion. In this discussion, my rules are that nobody will be allowed to accuse, attack, or use any other ad hominem technique directed at any individual or group at USMB or elsewhere with impunity. I also reserved the right, via Rule #2, to define what ad hominem is. Those who don't like my rules are in no way obligated to participate on this thread at all, and are quite within their allowed rights to start their own thread with any sort of rules they prefer.

There isn't anything else to say on that particular subject, so I suggest that those who care to do so enjoy discussing their perspectives on the topic.

I understand that but who exactly was attacked and where was the incivility? Telling someone to leave the thread is incivility in action because they expressed an opinion within the rules that you set.

You can read the thread as well as I can quote it. Nobody was told to leave the thread, but that is offered as an option for those who do not wish to participate in this discussion on the terms set down for this discussion. If enforcing the rules set for this thread is interpreted as being uncivil, those who feel that way about it probably should find something else to do.

Now can we please return to the topic? Thank you very much.

By your standards set in the OP, you are being uncivil. Your issue at the center is you simply don't like being told, "You are wrong." That is not being uncivil.

Bada- BING


Should I stay or should I go now?

If you are not interested in discussing the topic and rather want to make this thread about me, it's up to you, but I will insist that we stay on topic and follow the rules regardless. The topic is not whether Foxfyre is or is not civil. Do have a pleasant evening.

 

[MaryL]

Incivility, I recently put a dash cam in my car. After nearly being T-boned by idiots driving like morons. 3 times in March. But I neglected to put a camera facing rearward, the speeding, Tailgating, aggressive driving and hostility. 20 years ago, I didn't need a camera to monitor incivility. That is how bad this has gotten.

Well if that is on purpose, that does take incivility to a whole different level, but I am not so concerned about the incivility that constitutes breaking existing laws--libel, slander, assault, negligence, etc. We do have laws against those kinds of things in which there are provable damages.

But the damage to our well being and shared lives together as a society that is full of angry, hateful accusations, blame, and insults that composes most of the daily incivility isn't so measurable. But I sure see it as a reality.

The very example of civility is just how your fellow motorists treat each other. Do they allow you to merge? Do they cut you off? Even though it is to their disadvantage? They wave you through and let in, or do they cut you off, ignore speed limits, speed, tailgate and run stop signs or lights? I am seeing as lot of people with bad habits flying under the radar. Uncivil jerks .

 

[orogenicman]

I believe that in most day to day encounters, people are civil towards one another. We couldn't conduct commerce without it or maintain society without civility. Where civility breaks down in modern society, I believe, is largely when we can behave anonymously, such as on forums like this one, or when we see (whether perceived or in reality) indiscretions committed by one group against another. It becomes easier to be uncivil towards others when we demonize them, particularly wrt people, place, events, cultures, we don't fully understand. We must strive to widen our circles of compassion if we are to avoid these disagreements from becoming wider, more dangerous conflicts.

 

[Foxfyre]

Incivility, I recently put a dash cam in my car. After nearly being T-boned by idiots driving like morons. 3 times in March. But I neglected to put a camera facing rearward, the speeding, Tailgating, aggressive driving and hostility. 20 years ago, I didn't need a camera to monitor incivility. That is how bad this has gotten.

Well if that is on purpose, that does take incivility to a whole different level, but I am not so concerned about the incivility that constitutes breaking existing laws--libel, slander, assault, negligence, etc. We do have laws against those kinds of things in which there are provable damages.

But the damage to our well being and shared lives together as a society that is full of angry, hateful accusations, blame, and insults that composes most of the daily incivility isn't so measurable. But I sure see it as a reality.

The very example of civility is just how your fellow motorists treat each other. Do they allow you to merge? Do they cut you off? Even though it is to their disadvantage? They wave you through and let in, or do they cut you off, ignore speed limits, speed, tailgate and run stop signs or lights? I am seeing as lot of people with bad habits flying under the radar. Uncivil jerks .

Hard to argue with that. But is it really incivility or just being selfish or self-centered that prompts such behavior? Shooting somebody the finger or other kinds of road rage are definitely incivility, and sometimes can even turn dangerous or deadly. And I think deliberately not allowing somebody to merge or pull into a turn lane or whatever can be a form of incivility. Certainly bad manners. Maybe those are one and the same?

 

[Gracie]

yep.

 

[Gracie]

Incivility, I recently put a dash cam in my car. After nearly being T-boned by idiots driving like morons. 3 times in March. But I neglected to put a camera facing rearward, the speeding, Tailgating, aggressive driving and hostility. 20 years ago, I didn't need a camera to monitor incivility. That is how bad this has gotten.

Well if that is on purpose, that does take incivility to a whole different level, but I am not so concerned about the incivility that constitutes breaking existing laws--libel, slander, assault, negligence, etc. We do have laws against those kinds of things in which there are provable damages.

But the damage to our well being and shared lives together as a society that is full of angry, hateful accusations, blame, and insults that composes most of the daily incivility isn't so measurable. But I sure see it as a reality.

The very example of civility is just how your fellow motorists treat each other. Do they allow you to merge? Do they cut you off? Even though it is to their disadvantage? They wave you through and let in, or do they cut you off, ignore speed limits, speed, tailgate and run stop signs or lights? I am seeing as lot of people with bad habits flying under the radar. Uncivil jerks .

Ignore their middle fingers, pull over and let them pass, refuse to SEE them and get your attention. Pisses them off something fierce but if they don't have an audience, it pisses them off...and not taking their bait adds flavor to pissing them off more.

 

[MaryL]

People controlling a guided weapon. A motor car. Their level of civility is significant. Someone on the internet being a troll, or not saying bless you when you sneeze, there is a certain level here were civility and integrity are a matter of life and death. And we trust anonymous people piloting one ton vehicles with our mortal lives as being civil and law abiding?

 

[orogenicman]

People controlling a guided weapon. A motor car. Their level of civility is significant. Someone on the internet being a troll, or not saying bless you when you sneeze, there is a certain level here were civility and integrity are a matter of life and death. And we trust anonymous people piloting one ton vehicles with our mortal lives as being civil and law abiding?

Well, technically, it is what the law requires. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

 

[Foxfyre]

I believe that in most day to day encounters, people are civil towards one another. We couldn't conduct commerce without it or maintain society without civility. Where civility breaks down in modern society, I believe, is largely when we can behave anonymously, such as on forums like this one, or when we see (whether perceived or in reality) indiscretions committed by one group against another. It becomes easier to be uncivil towards others when we demonize them, particularly wrt people, place, events, cultures, we don't fully understand. We must strive to widen our circles of compassion if we are to avoid these disagreements from becoming wider, more dangerous conflicts.

I agree that incivility takes on a life of its own and is most likely a strong factor in altercations that results in more dangerous conflicts.

I'm not convinced that most incivility is limited to the anonymity offered in such venues as the internet. If you google 'incivility' you see article after article after article of how it has permeated every aspect of our society and how that has become a serious problem. Incivility in religion, in the work place, in commerce and industry, etc. You hear it on the radio, hear it in modern music, see it on TV, read it in the newspapers, and as we were just discussing, on the roadways. And in this politically correct modern environment we all live in now, some of the most blatant examples of incivility are demonstrated toward those who dare violate whatever PC code is in effect at any given time.

I don't know what the answer is, but how do we restore good manners, a reasonable degree of tolerance for differing points of view, and civility to our common shared culture?

 

[MaryL]

People that flip me off, I can deal with. The idiot that flipped me off AFTER he deliberately ran a red light and flipped me off AFTER I honked at him, That is what convinced me to put in a dash camera. I use it every time I drive now, because people are such dingbats. Uncivil dangerous dingbats. Jesus won't be on my left side to stand with me, I got a camera as my witness. That is the sad state of civility and honesty in America now.