Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

[Sweet_Caroline]

A MUST-SEE​

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4r7ZjG9Nc]A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kondor3]

A few percent.

Link ?

Decisive causes of abandonment of Palestinian villages and towns according to Benny Morris Decisive causes of abandonment Occurrences[138]
military assault on settlement 215
influence of nearby town's fall 59
expulsion by Jewish forces 53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) 48
whispering campaigns 15
abandonment on Arab orders 6
unknown 44

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for the link, Tinny...

You found something that looks kinda-sorta credible, from an Israeli historian...

As usual, you cherry-picked partial stats (second wave stats only)...

But that's easily fixed, given a fuller examination of the text at your Wiki link...

Here are overall status, according to this Morris fellow...

===================

Main causes of the Palestinian exodus according to Israeli historian Benny Morris

First wave December 1947 – March 1948 about 100,000 sense of vulnerability, attacks and fear of impending attack

Second wave April–June 1948 250,000–300,000 attacks and fear of impending attack

Third wave July–October 1948 about 100,000 attacks and expulsions

Fourth wave October–November 1948 200,000–230,000 attacks and expulsions

Border clearings November 1948 – 1950 30,000-40,000

...from that same Wiki page, and Morris' "Four-Wave Analysis" .

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

====================

It would appear that the Israelis did NOT expel ANY of the Palestinians (not so you'd notice, statistically, anyway, on the scale Morris is working on) until the Third and Fourth waves...

Given that the Israelis declared Statehood in May 1948 and that the first actual Expulsions did not take place until July - a full two months later - it would appear that during the early going, the Jews-Israelis were not driving people from their homes on a large scale...

At a maximum, it appears that Jewish-induced expulsions account for no more than one-half (-ish) of all displaced persons...

At a minimum, it could be far less...

Morris does not appear to distinguish between Attack-Refugees and Expulsion-Refugees in his guess-timates but seems to lump them together, unfortunately...

But, bottom line...

Refugees are a byproduct of war...

In this case, a war started by the Arabs themselves...

Long-term refugees are a byproduct of LOSING a war...

Or SEVERAL wars...

Welcome to your consequences...

Even still...

Sixty-five (65) years???????????????!!!!!!!!!????????????

Puhhhh-leeeeze !!!!!

If their lands have been under Israeli control for 65 years, with no practical hope of Return, then, why are the Palestinians still in these camps and towns after all this time?

Unless, of course, they've tried to emmigrate elsewhere, and nobody wants them.

Which also tells us something about them and their supposedly-sympathetic ethnic brethren and co-religionists...

 

[P F Tinmore]

Link ?

Decisive causes of abandonment of Palestinian villages and towns according to Benny Morris Decisive causes of abandonment Occurrences[138]
military assault on settlement 215
influence of nearby town's fall 59
expulsion by Jewish forces 53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) 48
whispering campaigns 15
abandonment on Arab orders 6
unknown 44

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for the link, Tinny...

You found something that looks kinda-sorta credible, from an Israeli historian...

As usual, you cherry-picked partial stats (second wave stats only)...

But that's easily fixed, given a fuller examination of the text at your Wiki link...

Here are overall status, according to this Morris fellow...

===================

Main causes of the Palestinian exodus according to Israeli historian Benny Morris

First wave December 1947 – March 1948 about 100,000 sense of vulnerability, attacks and fear of impending attack

Second wave April–June 1948 250,000–300,000 attacks and fear of impending attack

Third wave July–October 1948 about 100,000 attacks and expulsions

Fourth wave October–November 1948 200,000–230,000 attacks and expulsions

Border clearings November 1948 – 1950 30,000-40,000

...from that same Wiki page, and Morris' "Four-Wave Analysis" .

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

====================

It would appear that the Israelis did NOT expel ANY of the Palestinians (not so you'd notice, statistically, anyway, on the scale Morris is working on) until the Third and Fourth waves...

Given that the Israelis declared Statehood in May 1948 and that the first actual Expulsions did not take place until July - a full two months later - it would appear that during the early going, the Jews-Israelis were not driving people from their homes on a large scale...

At a maximum, it appears that Jewish-induced expulsions account for no more than one-half (-ish) of all displaced persons...

At a minimum, it could be far less...

Morris does not appear to distinguish between Attack-Refugees and Expulsion-Refugees in his guess-timates but seems to lump them together, unfortunately...

But, bottom line...

Refugees are a byproduct of war...

In this case, a war started by the Arabs themselves...

Long-term refugees are a byproduct of LOSING a war...

Or SEVERAL wars...

Welcome to your consequences...

Even still...

Sixty-five (65) years???????????????!!!!!!!!!????????????

Puhhhh-leeeeze !!!!!

If their lands have been under Israeli control for 65 years, with no practical hope of Return, then, why are the Palestinians still in these camps and towns after all this time?

Unless, of course, they've tried to emmigrate elsewhere, and nobody wants them.

Which also tells us something about them and their supposedly-sympathetic ethnic brethren and co-religionists...

Sixty five years and Israel has not won yet.

 

[toastman]

Decisive causes of abandonment of Palestinian villages and towns according to Benny Morris Decisive causes of abandonment Occurrences[138]
military assault on settlement 215
influence of nearby town's fall 59
expulsion by Jewish forces 53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) 48
whispering campaigns 15
abandonment on Arab orders 6
unknown 44

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for the link, Tinny...

You found something that looks kinda-sorta credible, from an Israeli historian...

As usual, you cherry-picked partial stats (second wave stats only)...

But that's easily fixed, given a fuller examination of the text at your Wiki link...

Here are overall status, according to this Morris fellow...

===================

Main causes of the Palestinian exodus according to Israeli historian Benny Morris

First wave December 1947 – March 1948 about 100,000 sense of vulnerability, attacks and fear of impending attack

Second wave April–June 1948 250,000–300,000 attacks and fear of impending attack

Third wave July–October 1948 about 100,000 attacks and expulsions

Fourth wave October–November 1948 200,000–230,000 attacks and expulsions

Border clearings November 1948 – 1950 30,000-40,000

...from that same Wiki page, and Morris' "Four-Wave Analysis" .

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

====================

It would appear that the Israelis did NOT expel ANY of the Palestinians (not so you'd notice, statistically, anyway, on the scale Morris is working on) until the Third and Fourth waves...

Given that the Israelis declared Statehood in May 1948 and that the first actual Expulsions did not take place until July - a full two months later - it would appear that during the early going, the Jews-Israelis were not driving people from their homes on a large scale...

At a maximum, it appears that Jewish-induced expulsions account for no more than one-half (-ish) of all displaced persons...

At a minimum, it could be far less...

Morris does not appear to distinguish between Attack-Refugees and Expulsion-Refugees in his guess-timates but seems to lump them together, unfortunately...

But, bottom line...

Refugees are a byproduct of war...

In this case, a war started by the Arabs themselves...

Long-term refugees are a byproduct of LOSING a war...

Or SEVERAL wars...

Welcome to your consequences...

Even still...

Sixty-five (65) years???????????????!!!!!!!!!????????????

Puhhhh-leeeeze !!!!!

If their lands have been under Israeli control for 65 years, with no practical hope of Return, then, why are the Palestinians still in these camps and towns after all this time?

Unless, of course, they've tried to emmigrate elsewhere, and nobody wants them.

Which also tells us something about them and their supposedly-sympathetic ethnic brethren and co-religionists...

Sixty five years and Israel has not won yet.

65 years and Israel has become a beautiful, modern country with the best and most powerful army in the ME, and has given an endless list of contributions to the world.
There's nothing to win at this point really

 

[P F Tinmore]

Thank you for the link, Tinny...

You found something that looks kinda-sorta credible, from an Israeli historian...

As usual, you cherry-picked partial stats (second wave stats only)...

But that's easily fixed, given a fuller examination of the text at your Wiki link...

Here are overall status, according to this Morris fellow...

===================

Main causes of the Palestinian exodus according to Israeli historian Benny Morris

First wave December 1947 – March 1948 about 100,000 sense of vulnerability, attacks and fear of impending attack

Second wave April–June 1948 250,000–300,000 attacks and fear of impending attack

Third wave July–October 1948 about 100,000 attacks and expulsions

Fourth wave October–November 1948 200,000–230,000 attacks and expulsions

Border clearings November 1948 – 1950 30,000-40,000

...from that same Wiki page, and Morris' "Four-Wave Analysis" .

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

====================

It would appear that the Israelis did NOT expel ANY of the Palestinians (not so you'd notice, statistically, anyway, on the scale Morris is working on) until the Third and Fourth waves...

Given that the Israelis declared Statehood in May 1948 and that the first actual Expulsions did not take place until July - a full two months later - it would appear that during the early going, the Jews-Israelis were not driving people from their homes on a large scale...

At a maximum, it appears that Jewish-induced expulsions account for no more than one-half (-ish) of all displaced persons...

At a minimum, it could be far less...

Morris does not appear to distinguish between Attack-Refugees and Expulsion-Refugees in his guess-timates but seems to lump them together, unfortunately...

But, bottom line...

Refugees are a byproduct of war...

In this case, a war started by the Arabs themselves...

Long-term refugees are a byproduct of LOSING a war...

Or SEVERAL wars...

Welcome to your consequences...

Even still...

Sixty-five (65) years???????????????!!!!!!!!!????????????

Puhhhh-leeeeze !!!!!

If their lands have been under Israeli control for 65 years, with no practical hope of Return, then, why are the Palestinians still in these camps and towns after all this time?

Unless, of course, they've tried to emmigrate elsewhere, and nobody wants them.

Which also tells us something about them and their supposedly-sympathetic ethnic brethren and co-religionists...

Sixty five years and Israel has not won yet.

65 years and Israel has become a beautiful, modern country with the best and most powerful army in the ME, and has given an endless list of contributions to the world.
There's nothing to win at this point really

Israel is a castle built on sand.

 

[toastman]

Sixty five years and Israel has not won yet.

65 years and Israel has become a beautiful, modern country with the best and most powerful army in the ME, and has given an endless list of contributions to the world.
There's nothing to win at this point really

Israel is a castle built on sand.

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, right.

650,000 Jews. 1.35 million Arabs. 1948 Mandate Palestine. Jewish state??

Any arab state?

Ask the Count why not.

"This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces – half before any Arab armies joined the war. This massive humanitarian disaster is known as ‘The Catastrophe,’ al Nakba in Arabic.8

"Zionist forces committed 33 massacres and destroyed 531 Palestinian towns. Author Norman Finkelstein states: 'According to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War... acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’”9

"Count Folke Bernadotte, a former official of the Swedish Red Cross who saved thousands of Jews during World War II and was appointed U.N. mediator in Palestine, said of the refugees: 'It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes.'10 Bernadotte was assassinated by a Zionist organization led by future Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir.1"

The Catastrophe - Al Nakba

 

[toastman]

650,000 Jews. 1.35 million Arabs. 1948 Mandate Palestine. Jewish state??

Any arab state?

Ask the Count why not.

"This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces – half before any Arab armies joined the war. This massive humanitarian disaster is known as ‘The Catastrophe,’ al Nakba in Arabic.8

"Zionist forces committed 33 massacres and destroyed 531 Palestinian towns. Author Norman Finkelstein states: 'According to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War... acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’”9

"Count Folke Bernadotte, a former official of the Swedish Red Cross who saved thousands of Jews during World War II and was appointed U.N. mediator in Palestine, said of the refugees: 'It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes.'10 Bernadotte was assassinated by a Zionist organization led by future Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir.1"

The Catastrophe - Al Nakba

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4r7ZjG9Nc]A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA - YouTube[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

Some greeeedy Joooooooos had made it clear for fifty years they were planning to claim all the land between the River and the sea. After the British decapitated Arab leadership in Palestine during the revolt between 1936-39, Jewish terror won out over Arab resistance. Unfortunately, some Jews miscalculated and waited until 1967 to take all the land in their second war of aggression. By that time international law had put an end to the slave-based morality of might makes right. Maybe you'll get to keep a few blocks of Jerusalem for old time's sake?

Drunk drivel.

Drink deeply, Drivel:

"The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine.

"Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British.

"The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

"In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people."

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

TOPIC: Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

How is this all fitting together with the topic?

v/r
R

 

[georgephillip]

How many of those Arabs were told to leave by the surrounding Arab nations because they would have a quick and swift victory over Israel and would be able to return to their homes shortly ?

I'm not sure.
Tens of thousands, at least.
Why do you think it matters?
Some greeeedy Joooooooos had made it clear for fifty years they were planning to claim all the land between the River and the sea. After the British decapitated Arab leadership in Palestine during the revolt between 1936-39, Jewish terror won out over Arab resistance. Unfortunately, some Jews miscalculated and waited until 1967 to take all the land in their second war of aggression. By that time international law had put an end to the slave-based morality of might makes right. Maybe you'll get to keep a few blocks of Jerusalem for old time's sake?

My goodness I have never seen a period of history distorted so much!
I told you to stop reading your history from the Hamas History Book , didn't I?

How would you grade the following History?

"How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

“Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...

"In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group.

"All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...

"Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

 

[toastman]

Seems about right. Why ?

 

[georgephillip]

et al,

TOPIC: Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

How is this all fitting together with the topic?

v/r
R

Rocco, please.
Stop trolling!

"The question is not 'Is Israel the same as South Africa?'
It is "do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?"

"The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity 'committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.'"

Is Israel an Apartheid State?

The first time we tried to examine this question, we were sidetracked by the word "race." Perhaps we can all agree this time that the Haters on both sides, Jew and Arab, regard the other as racially inferior?

 

[georgephillip]

Any arab state?

Ask the Count why not.

"This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces – half before any Arab armies joined the war. This massive humanitarian disaster is known as ‘The Catastrophe,’ al Nakba in Arabic.8

"Zionist forces committed 33 massacres and destroyed 531 Palestinian towns. Author Norman Finkelstein states: 'According to the former director of the Israeli army archives, ‘in almost every village occupied by us during the War... acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes’...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that ‘every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.’”9

"Count Folke Bernadotte, a former official of the Swedish Red Cross who saved thousands of Jews during World War II and was appointed U.N. mediator in Palestine, said of the refugees: 'It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes.'10 Bernadotte was assassinated by a Zionist organization led by future Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir.1"

The Catastrophe - Al Nakba

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4r7ZjG9Nc]A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA - YouTube[/ame]

"By inciting a million Palestinian Arabs to leave their lands, we have brought about their destruction." These are the final words from your video which would seem to imply every Arab who fled did so at the behest of his or her leaders.

That seems unlikely, especially since the declassification of "the concept of transfer" has emerged:

"Discussion of the 'idea of transfer' in political Zionism became popular beginning in the 1980s when Israel declassified documents pertaining to the 1948 Arab–Israeli War period and the so-called New Historians began publishing articles and books based on these documents.

"The Zionist 'concept of transfer' was cited by authors like Nur Masalha and Walid Khalidi to support their argument that the Zionist Yishuv followed an expulsion policy.

"Others such as Morris reject the idea that 'transfer' thinking led to a political expulsion policy as such, but invoke the theory to explain that the idea of transfer was endorsed in practice by mainstream Zionist leaders, particularly David Ben-Gurion.

"Critics of the 'transfer principle' theory cite public addresses by the Zionist leadership that preached co-existence with the Arabs."

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What percentage of the 700,000 Arabs who left their homes in 1948 did so because their "leaders" told them to do so?

 

[georgephillip]

Seems about right. Why ?

How about this?

"In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people."

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

 

[Kondor3]

Seems about right. Why ?

How about this?

"In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people."

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

Indeed.

Those fears have been realized.

There is no recourse.

After 65 years, it's time to face reality.

After 65 years, it's time to pack-up, turn off the lights, walk out the door, and find someplace else to live.

 

[toastman]

Seems about right. Why ?

How about this?

"In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people."

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

Absolute garbage. The definition of Zionism that some of you people come up is such crap. You are basing the definition of azionism on how you think the State of Israel came to be instead of using the actual definition .
ZIONISM is a rightceous movement that was meant for dealing with the Jewish question, and that was growing anti semitism

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip; et al,

Yes, I understand what "apartheid" is, but I don't think you do.

(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

SOURCE: Rome Statues - International Criminal Code

TOPIC: Is Israel the Same as South Africa?

How is this all fitting together with the topic?

v/r
R

Rocco, please.
Stop trolling!

"The question is not 'Is Israel the same as South Africa?'
It is "do Israel's actions meet the international definition of what apartheid is?"

(OBSERVATION)

Apartheid is the political segregation, for social reasons, of the white population from the non-white majority in South Africa.

The thread question suggest that there is political segregation, for social reasons, of the Arab population from the non-Arab majority in Israel.

(COMMENT)

Not once has a specific case of "Apartheid" has yet to be raised, even if we dispense with the "race" issue.

Give a specific example.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

Sixty five years and Israel has not won yet.

65 years and Israel has become a beautiful, modern country with the best and most powerful army in the ME, and has given an endless list of contributions to the world.
There's nothing to win at this point really

Israel is a castle built on sand.

"Bumblebees can't fly".

 

[georgephillip]

Seems about right. Why ?

How about this?

"In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people."

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

Indeed.

Those fears have been realized.

There is no recourse.

After 65 years, it's time to face reality.

After 65 years, it's time to pack-up, turn off the lights, walk out the door, and find someplace else to live.

Indeed.
The Jews will be much happier in Cyprus or Kenya.
Remind Bibi about those lights.