Is the US to blame for all of Cuba's ills?

[Donald H]

Funny how if this isn't a Republican or a Democrat thing the only issue to you is you want a Communist government propped up.

Why shouldn't any American want to defend Cuba's communist government when that government's revolution is bringing prosperity to Cuba's people?

The only reason it took so many years is because of America's evil sanctions being used to hurt the Cuban people.

And now the US has simply lost the ability to continue with it's cruelty due to China coming to their rescue with much needed support and economic aid.

It's no coincidence that America is fomenting trouble in Cuba at this time. America sees a huge loss in influence in it's own sphere of influence, right next door!

Will China harbour its nuclear armed warships in its new Cuban naval base?

Sadly that isn't a joke, is it?

That which is a joke to you is not likely a joke to me.

Obama was most likely intent on saving Cuba from China's expanding influence.

And now there's just no way of trying to say that Trump completely blew it on foreign policy regarding Cuba.

That is, unless some Americans are going to claim that Trump wasn't making critical decisions?

The rest of the world doesn't give a fk now. What is in Cuba, IS!

Partners: China and Cuba | MR Online

Partners: China and Cuba | MR Online

In the 1960s, the main forms of the Chinese assistance offered to Cuba were preferential trade and interest-free loans. From 1961 to 1965, China gave Cuba an interest-free loan of 60 million U.S. dollars.

mronline.org

Feb 22, 2021 · In the 1960s, the main forms of the Chinese assistance offered to Cuba were preferential trade and interest-free loans. From 1961 to 1965, China gave Cuba an interest-free loan of 60 million U.S. dollars. The two sides signed the China-Cuba Economic Cooperation Agreement, Trade and Payment Agreement, and Technology Cooperation Protocol.

China moved slowly but its intentions were established long ago in the 60's. Direct opposition to US interests wasn't in China's best interests, without China's power to back it up.

And now China has the power and global influence to back up it's foreign policy priorities.

Now we're all wondering how the US is going to react to the impending foreign policy loss?

 

[Donald H]

I agree! One capitalist nation on earth can bring any Commie nation to its knees without trying.

You lack any ability to understand this discussion and so you try to disrupt with childish spamming.

Can America bring China or Russia to their knees?
yes, no, maybe, whatever is comforting for Americans to believe!

A more relevant question now would be whether America can bring Cuba to its knees!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Chavez was elected because VZ had no middle class left after 80 years of oil revenues

How's their middle class doing today? Still eating their pets?

The bottom fell out on the ppb.

What happened to their output?

The price went down $40 a barrel.

I didn't ask what happened to the price, I asked what happened to their output.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

where did Bush do that?

the law at the time said US businesses couldn’t do business with Cuba. Bush didn’t make the law.

Yes Trump put sanctions back on Cuba after they backed the oppressive dictator of Venezuela

And properly so. That is the proper response to a nation that is an oppressive monster to it's own people
and tries to aid another dictator/butcher, Hugo Chavez, in Venezuela spread socialist misery to other nations.

You have to snicker at people who moan about the poor people of Cuba while advocating the same shit here in the US.

All I can do is smh

Who supports cutting people off from the things they need?

See Venezuela and how Socialism supplies the people's needs.

Good grief

If we couldn't have just printed, printed, printed, tell me how our needs would have been met after crashing the economy? What happens to GM if we couldn't print billions to give them?

What happens to GM if we couldn't print billions to give them?

The TARP loans to GM were from the US Treasury, not from the Fed.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Who supports cutting people off from the things they need?

Dictators. How is Cuba's internet today?

No clue. Likely better if a Internet supplier was able to do business there.

No clue.

Obviously.

Likely better if a Internet supplier was able to do business there.

Likely better if the Cuban dictators hadn't shut it off.

 

[surada]

Chavez was elected because VZ had no middle class left after 80 years of oil revenues

How's their middle class doing today? Still eating their pets?

The bottom fell out on the ppb.

What happened to their output?

The price went down $40 a barrel.

I didn't ask what happened to the price, I asked what happened to their output.

You don't ever pump MORE oil when the ppb goes down.

 

[DrLove]

No, however Uncle Joe should have removed the sanctions imposed by Trumpy Bear.

 

[Soupnazi630]

where did Bush do that?

the law at the time said US businesses couldn’t do business with Cuba. Bush didn’t make the law.

Yes Trump put sanctions back on Cuba after they backed the oppressive dictator of Venezuela

And properly so. That is the proper response to a nation that is an oppressive monster to it's own people
and tries to aid another dictator/butcher, Hugo Chavez, in Venezuela spread socialist misery to other nations.

Actually what Chavez did with Petro Caribe was pretty smart.

Face facts, Socialism destroyed Venezuela... it's a cancer that's never worked....and never will.
A failed economic platform

Nonsense.
Individual corruption is what harmed Venezuela, and socialism had nothing at all to do with it.
The US also illegally caused a great deal of harm.
Most of the world is socialist, and all the good parts of the US are, like public transportation, education, social security, disability, ADC, food stamps, unemployment compensation, etc.

Wrong.

Socialism destroyed venezuela and we did nothing illegal to harm them

 

[Donald H]

Who supports cutting people off from the things they need?

Dictators. How is Cuba's internet today?

No clue. Likely better if a Internet supplier was able to do business there.

No clue.

Obviously.

Likely better if a Internet supplier was able to do business there.

Likely better if the Cuban dictators hadn't shut it off.

Cuba's leadership has been patient, and the Cuban people have stayed loyal to their revolution, for as long as it took.
Now it's America's spilt milk.

What will America do now?
How can America sell the use of military force to a world that's wide awake on China's peaceful methods?

 

[Theowl32]

Something you won't see filmed by fat ass Michael Moore

 

[Soupnazi630]

The media is doing it's best to place a flaming bag of dog doo on Trump's doorstep when it
comes to Cuba.

As usual it's a fail.

Trump threatened the Marriott in Havana and demanded that it close down as soon as he took office.

Your point? You wanted to keep propping up the Cuban government?

Hey, I haven't seen you since you ran off to write down a list of the issues you agreed with Republicans on that made you a Republican for 35 years. Is the list done yet? How did it go?

Marriott hotels were propping up the Cuban government? I was very pleased when Obama lifted sanctions and decided to normalize relations.

What list? I don't take orders from you, asshole.

My God, you don't know what governments need money? I hope you're hot, you're not making a living other than on your back.

And exactly, you were a Republican for 35 years, and you can't come up with a single reason why. If you were not lying, it would be the easiest question in the world since you CLAIM YOU WERE ONE FOR 35 YEARS. Hello.

It's the question that you liars who claim you are former Republicans and then you switched to hard core leftists always fall flat on your face on.

I don't know why you lie about being a former Republican. No conservative says wow, a left wing moonbat switched from Republican to Democrat, count me in!

But endless Democrats do it. So I guess it makes sense in your warped head, bitch

That is silly because Eisenhower explained what was good and then wrong about being a republican.
Originally republicans were fiscal conservatives, who did not borrow and spend from the future generations.
But WWII produced such munitions profits, that republicans became corrupt and built the Military Industrial Complex that caused the illegal wars like Vietnam, Desert Storm, Invasion of Iraq, etc., that were based on lies and with the intent of huge private profits.

Those wars were legal even if you disagree with their reasons for our involvement.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Yes the US is in part, to blame.

See all this white space here to type in is where you get to splain your point. I was not looking really for a short yes or no.

Continue

Okay no problem, but I just did that in another thread on this topic.

Are you aware the US has heavily sanctioned and stopped all trade with Cuba for 60 years? Now put the puzzle together. The world’s preeminent economic and military nation doing this to Cuba for 60 FUCKING YEARS, will have a negative impact.

No? Yes?

The U.S. does not stop the rest of the world from trading with Cuba, so that excuse doesn't wash.

Cuba made a calculated decision to side with the former USSR for political power against the US, so why not just take their medicine like they asked for?

They simply chose a failing ideology to side with and subsequent failing economy.

Wrong again. You’re wrong a lot.

When Castro came to power he tried to have a good relationship with the US. The US said fuck off, we love our big corporations and oil companies raping your land and controlling your people. Hence, he had no choice but to seek help from the USSR.

We’ve seen this picture before…Ho Chi Minh tried the same thing with the US, but got the same response.

Assuming you are right, Castro sold his soul to the USSR instead?

Are you saying Cuba could not survive without selling its soul to either?

Yes, all countries have been forced to choose which of the large and powerful nations they want to align with in order to prevent being destroyed by one of them, if they don'[t have a protector.
Cuba was in particular bad shape because Batista had managed to steal the entire national treasury, so was totally broke.

So now the economic and military super powers are China and the US, and both use capitalism to fuel their economies

So essentially socialism can never work without such capitalism

Correct?

Is preaching socialism then akin to convincing people to join a suicide pact of mass starvation and misery?

No, all successful countries actually are socialist.
Socialism does not mean ANY government enterprise at all, but merely enough government regulation to prevent abuses of individual rights, like laws against child labor, slavery, mandatory overtime, monopolies, usury, discrimination, etc.

But there also is no doubt that capitalism can be more individually controlled so can be quicker and more innovative, so can out perform group leadership that is slowed by consensus.

The charge was made that Cuba had to sell their collective soul to another country to survive. Moreover, without the US they can't survive

So you are saying that premise is pure BS.

So why then has Cuba failed?

Also, who are the success stories of socialism in your opinion?

Obviously Cuba was so threatened by the US military that they had to go with the Soviets.
We STILL invaded Cuba with the Bay of Pigs, even with Soviet alliance.

Who says Cuba ever failed?
Being poor after being wealthy from casinos is not failure.
It is easy to point to Scandinavian countries as socialist successes, such as heavy Swedish government investment into Volvo, etc.
But obviously the US is totally socialist.
We have laws against abusive anti-labor practices, we have public schools, etc.

There is no comparison to Europe and the US and Cuba in terms of socialism.

I do not have time to watch videos, but if the idea is that someone thinks socialism requires government ownership of enterprise, that is wrong. As long as you have labor protection law and laws preventing things like monopolies, that is socialism.

Laws do not prevent monopolies. Government creates them.

 

[Donald H]

No, however Uncle Joe should have removed the sanctions imposed by Trumpy Bear.

He still can. That's likely the best of all solutions for America. But will Cuba even take notice and care?

Is huge US investment in Cuba in the cards now?
And if so then does that signify America's defeat to communism?

What a risky challenge to Biden!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If Venezuela could just print, print, print they would be fine also.

They do print, print, print.

Hasn't been working out too well for them.........

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I was very pleased when Obama lifted sanctions and decided to normalize relations.

Of course you were.
What concessions did he get from Cuba in return?

 

[surada]

Yes the US is in part, to blame.

See all this white space here to type in is where you get to splain your point. I was not looking really for a short yes or no.

Continue

Okay no problem, but I just did that in another thread on this topic.

Are you aware the US has heavily sanctioned and stopped all trade with Cuba for 60 years? Now put the puzzle together. The world’s preeminent economic and military nation doing this to Cuba for 60 FUCKING YEARS, will have a negative impact.

No? Yes?

The U.S. does not stop the rest of the world from trading with Cuba, so that excuse doesn't wash.

Cuba made a calculated decision to side with the former USSR for political power against the US, so why not just take their medicine like they asked for?

They simply chose a failing ideology to side with and subsequent failing economy.

Wrong again. You’re wrong a lot.

When Castro came to power he tried to have a good relationship with the US. The US said fuck off, we love our big corporations and oil companies raping your land and controlling your people. Hence, he had no choice but to seek help from the USSR.

We’ve seen this picture before…Ho Chi Minh tried the same thing with the US, but got the same response.

Assuming you are right, Castro sold his soul to the USSR instead?

Are you saying Cuba could not survive without selling its soul to either?

Yes, all countries have been forced to choose which of the large and powerful nations they want to align with in order to prevent being destroyed by one of them, if they don'[t have a protector.
Cuba was in particular bad shape because Batista had managed to steal the entire national treasury, so was totally broke.

So now the economic and military super powers are China and the US, and both use capitalism to fuel their economies

So essentially socialism can never work without such capitalism

Correct?

Is preaching socialism then akin to convincing people to join a suicide pact of mass starvation and misery?

No, all successful countries actually are socialist.
Socialism does not mean ANY government enterprise at all, but merely enough government regulation to prevent abuses of individual rights, like laws against child labor, slavery, mandatory overtime, monopolies, usury, discrimination, etc.

But there also is no doubt that capitalism can be more individually controlled so can be quicker and more innovative, so can out perform group leadership that is slowed by consensus.

The charge was made that Cuba had to sell their collective soul to another country to survive. Moreover, without the US they can't survive

So you are saying that premise is pure BS.

So why then has Cuba failed?

Also, who are the success stories of socialism in your opinion?

Obviously Cuba was so threatened by the US military that they had to go with the Soviets.
We STILL invaded Cuba with the Bay of Pigs, even with Soviet alliance.

Who says Cuba ever failed?
Being poor after being wealthy from casinos is not failure.
It is easy to point to Scandinavian countries as socialist successes, such as heavy Swedish government investment into Volvo, etc.
But obviously the US is totally socialist.
We have laws against abusive anti-labor practices, we have public schools, etc.

There is no comparison to Europe and the US and Cuba in terms of socialism.

I do not have time to watch videos, but if the idea is that someone thinks socialism requires government ownership of enterprise, that is wrong. As long as you have labor protection law and laws preventing things like monopolies, that is socialism.

Laws do not prevent monopolies. Government creates them.

What are you talking about? Like Standard Oil or Col HCA owning all the hospitals in town? Like AT&T???

 

[kaz]

where did Bush do that?

the law at the time said US businesses couldn’t do business with Cuba. Bush didn’t make the law.

Yes Trump put sanctions back on Cuba after they backed the oppressive dictator of Venezuela

And properly so. That is the proper response to a nation that is an oppressive monster to it's own people
and tries to aid another dictator/butcher, Hugo Chavez, in Venezuela spread socialist misery to other nations.

You have to snicker at people who moan about the poor people of Cuba while advocating the same shit here in the US.

All I can do is smh

Who supports cutting people off from the things they need?

See Venezuela and how Socialism supplies the people's needs.

Good grief

If we couldn't have just printed, printed, printed, tell me how our needs would have been met after crashing the economy? What happens to GM if we couldn't print billions to give them?

they file for bankruptcy…like they did even after Obama and Xiden gave them billions…talk about a major f up

No idea who you are talking about.

taxpayers still gave them billions........or what we call Capitalism.

you weren’t talking about the auto bailout?

i am not sure what you are talking about.

Bank, auto, farmers, etc etc etc. If Venezuela could just print, print, print they would be fine also.

We can now but that isn't going to last.

i’m sorry you are gonna have to be more specific…the auto bailouts run by obama and xiden were stupid, and lead to the same result…agreed

what else are you talking about?

Venezuela could have, they had wealth…they have one of the largest oil reserves in the world. So it’s not that that was the issue…it’s the economic system and leftist policies

I have no idea who you are talking about.

you are the one that asked what would have happened had we not given the auto industry all that money.
i answered.


then you made this silly claim about how we are like venezuela…

it’s obvious you have no clue

I stated the only difference. You did nothing to dispute my position.

Your claim we aren't printing money was laughably wrong. You know zero about what is going it, that was nuts. We are printing money like crazy

Of course I never claimed that. It was my complaint.

So then you were saying Venezuela doesn't print money? WTF, that's no less clueless

 

[Soupnazi630]

where did Bush do that?

the law at the time said US businesses couldn’t do business with Cuba. Bush didn’t make the law.

Yes Trump put sanctions back on Cuba after they backed the oppressive dictator of Venezuela

And properly so. That is the proper response to a nation that is an oppressive monster to it's own people
and tries to aid another dictator/butcher, Hugo Chavez, in Venezuela spread socialist misery to other nations.

Actually what Chavez did with Petro Caribe was pretty smart.

Face facts, Socialism destroyed Venezuela... it's a cancer that's never worked....and never will.
A failed economic platform

Nonsense.
Individual corruption is what harmed Venezuela, and socialism had nothing at all to do with it.
The US also illegally caused a great deal of harm.
Most of the world is socialist, and all the good parts of the US are, like public transportation, education, social security, disability, ADC, food stamps, unemployment compensation, etc.

hahaha that's the problem isn't it? people are corrupt, people aren't angels....socialism just allows for it to flow widely, and always ends with the vast majority poor, and eating dogs.

China, USSR, Venezula, Cuba, Vietnam, every nation that has adopted Socialism.

Why do you think people being unemployment and getting UE benefits, and food stamps is a good part of America? I think it's horrible...we need less of it, and more people working.

Wrong.
China, USSR, Venezuela, Cuba were Stalinist, which is state capitalism.
Nothing socialist about them.
You can't have anything collaborative, cooperative, and communal without also being democratic.
Vietnam was not so Stalinist I believe.

Social welfare programs are always going to be temporary needs.
Without them you will have far more desperation and crime.
So they are always good to have as back up.
Without government, we would have far less work, such as no internet.
No private company could have invested what the internet took.

hahaa State Capitalism is socialism. It’s just another way to brand it that socialist came up with the deflect from the harms of socialism

The Govt owns the means and production. That’s socialism.

Social programs like welfare aren’t socialism…they don’t work the best, but they aren’t socialism

Wrong.
Socialism is where the people have economic freedom, not imposed government control.
State capitalism is identical to feudalism or any ancient tyrannical monarchy, which clearly is not at all socialist.
Govt owning means of production is NOT at all socialism.
Its only when the people own the means of production that you be assured it is socialism.
(but there are also many other ways to create socialism.)
Govt control or ownership is always the definition of capitalism, because it is not owned by the people and instead is profit motivated for a wealthy elite.
Its who benefits that matters.
And yes, social welfare programs are socialism because they help in hard times, so prevent people from being dictated to under pressure.

Wrong.

Socialsim is where economic freedom si stripped and and government control is imposed which is why socialism ALWAYS fails as it did in Cuba.

The wealthy elite are people. Private ownership is capitaslism.

Social welfare programs are not socialism although they fail as well.

 

[DrLove]

No, however Uncle Joe should have removed the sanctions imposed by Trumpy Bear.

He still can. That's likely the best of all solutions for America. But will Cuba even take notice and care?

Is huge US investment in Cuba in the cards now?
And if so then does that signify America's defeat to communism?

What a risky challenge to Biden!

Yea - It's another damned if ya do and damned if ya don't situation.
But of course Cuba will blame the US no matter what he does.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Iraqis were starving by the time we illegally invaded.

We weren't starving them, Saddam was.