Is there a god?

[Taz]

Not saying it can’t, just that you’ve shown no proof that it has.

So... Can you explain why you believe that virtue does not lead to peace and harmony?

It probably can, but nobody has shown that it has.

From a Darwinian point of view virtuous behavior is a functional advantage.
It is this functional advantage that explains why when people behave virtuously they experience order and harmony.

Personal opinion mixed with some mumbo jumbo. Not proof either.

No. Factual evidence. You do understand how natural selection works, right?

Are you denying evolution?

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

 

[ding]

It's called keeping your word and it is a moral law and there are predictable surprises when one is not true to his word. Most people see this as a self evident truth.

Lying can lead to positive outcomes, now THAT'S a self-evident truth.

Not in the long run it doesn't. Truth is always the best answer.

The truth can get you killed, so no, not always the way forward.

Everyone is going to die, Taz. If you died tomorrow would you be proud of what you did in this world? Because if not, you better start getting square.

Yes, very proud. And no invisible guy needed to threaten me. Imagine that!

Not at all. This has nothing to do with that, Taz.

Don't you believe your life has meaning, Taz? I think you already said as much, right?

If your life has meaning, then don't you want to be proud of what you do on this planet?

 

[ding]

So... Can you explain why you believe that virtue does not lead to peace and harmony?

It probably can, but nobody has shown that it has.

From a Darwinian point of view virtuous behavior is a functional advantage.
It is this functional advantage that explains why when people behave virtuously they experience order and harmony.

Personal opinion mixed with some mumbo jumbo. Not proof either.

No. Factual evidence. You do understand how natural selection works, right?

Are you denying evolution?

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

 

[Taz]

"History tells us it does" you couldn't give me 5 examples. The rest is just peoples' opinion and musings on the subject, not actual proof.

All one has to do to know that virtue leads to order and harmony is to look at their own experiences to know that virtue leads to order and harmony.

Two thankful people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two thankless people.
Two honest people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two dishonest people.
Two caring people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two cruel people.
Two loving people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two hateful people.
Two humble people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two arrogant people.
Two selfless people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two selfish people.
Two appreciative people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two unappreciative people.

Still just your opinion, not anywhere near what's known as "proof". Go buy a fucking dictionary.

You believe in the concept of fairness and expect everyone else to know and follow this invisible law of common decency but still won't recognize this as the moral law?

Why do you INSIST on other people accepting shit you make up? There is no invisible law of common decency and the only moral laws are the 10 big ones, which nobody follows.

But you yourself demonstrate on a daily basis that you believe there is an invisible law of common decency. You believe in the concept of fairness.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

 

[Taz]

It probably can, but nobody has shown that it has.

From a Darwinian point of view virtuous behavior is a functional advantage.
It is this functional advantage that explains why when people behave virtuously they experience order and harmony.

Personal opinion mixed with some mumbo jumbo. Not proof either.

No. Factual evidence. You do understand how natural selection works, right?

Are you denying evolution?

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

As an example, I was watching a show on Tasmanian devils the other day, the cubs fight NON-STOP over EVERYTHING, as a way to assert their dominance, even at an early age. Pretty nasty animals.

 

[Taz]

Lying can lead to positive outcomes, now THAT'S a self-evident truth.

Not in the long run it doesn't. Truth is always the best answer.

The truth can get you killed, so no, not always the way forward.

Everyone is going to die, Taz. If you died tomorrow would you be proud of what you did in this world? Because if not, you better start getting square.

Yes, very proud. And no invisible guy needed to threaten me. Imagine that!

Not at all. This has nothing to do with that, Taz.

Don't you believe your life has meaning, Taz? I think you already said as much, right?

If your life has meaning, then don't you want to be proud of what you do on this planet?

My life has meaning and I'm proud of what I accomplished so far, still a ways to go yet, I hope. Why do you feel the need to make things up all the time? Too caught up in your fantasy world with your invisible buddy?

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Because you're lying.

You are here to please yourself.

It's the same reason you make racist posts too.

YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Probably because you're jealous of my position.

Everyone sees the ax you are grinding, Taz. It's pretty obvious.

You're jealousy is showing again. Agnosticism is the thinking person's position. You can have all the fantasy.

Don't Fall for That "Got to Have Faith" Line

Are you "agnostic" about Santa Claus? You can't prove a negative about his existence either.

Doesn’t mean I’m agnostic about everything else. It’s a case by case basis. On god I’m agnostic.

He Condemned the Light-Bringer, Just Like Zeus Did to Prometheus

What makes Him so special that you exempt Him from total rejection?

 

[Taz]

YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Probably because you're jealous of my position.

Everyone sees the ax you are grinding, Taz. It's pretty obvious.

You're jealousy is showing again. Agnosticism is the thinking person's position. You can have all the fantasy.

Don't Fall for That "Got to Have Faith" Line

Are you "agnostic" about Santa Claus? You can't prove a negative about his existence either.

Doesn’t mean I’m agnostic about everything else. It’s a case by case basis. On god I’m agnostic.

He Condemned the Light-Bringer, Just Like Zeus Did to Prometheus

What makes Him so special that you exempt Him from total rejection?

I see no proof that a god can't exist.

 

[ding]

All one has to do to know that virtue leads to order and harmony is to look at their own experiences to know that virtue leads to order and harmony.

Two thankful people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two thankless people.
Two honest people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two dishonest people.
Two caring people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two cruel people.
Two loving people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two hateful people.
Two humble people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two arrogant people.
Two selfless people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two selfish people.
Two appreciative people will always have a more orderly and harmonious relationship than two unappreciative people.

Still just your opinion, not anywhere near what's known as "proof". Go buy a fucking dictionary.

You believe in the concept of fairness and expect everyone else to know and follow this invisible law of common decency but still won't recognize this as the moral law?

Why do you INSIST on other people accepting shit you make up? There is no invisible law of common decency and the only moral laws are the 10 big ones, which nobody follows.

But you yourself demonstrate on a daily basis that you believe there is an invisible law of common decency. You believe in the concept of fairness.

No I don't, life isn't always fair, and sometimes you do things that other people see as not fair. Fairness works like a contract, I'll be fair with someone until they screw me, then it can't be a one way street of fairness on my part, because then you're just a sap. Your positive outcomes can happen in those instances, although not everyone might see it as such, lol.

So you never have an expectation for a fair outcome? Never?

If that were true you wouldn't keep bringing up deformed babies, now would you?

 

[ding]

From a Darwinian point of view virtuous behavior is a functional advantage.
It is this functional advantage that explains why when people behave virtuously they experience order and harmony.

Personal opinion mixed with some mumbo jumbo. Not proof either.

No. Factual evidence. You do understand how natural selection works, right?

Are you denying evolution?

Peace and harmony work for certain species and for others, it doesn't. There's not a single way that only that way leads to your good outcomes. And you haven't shown it either.

Which species does it work for and which species doesn't it work for, Taz?

As an example, I was watching a show on Tasmanian devils the other day, the cubs fight NON-STOP over EVERYTHING, as a way to assert their dominance, even at an early age. Pretty nasty animals.

Putting aside that I don't necessary agree with you, is that all you have to answer my question?

Which species does peace and harmony work for and which species doesn't peace and harmony work for, Taz? I don't think saying that you saw show on Tasmanian devils the other day is much of an answer.

 

[ding]

Not in the long run it doesn't. Truth is always the best answer.

The truth can get you killed, so no, not always the way forward.

Everyone is going to die, Taz. If you died tomorrow would you be proud of what you did in this world? Because if not, you better start getting square.

Yes, very proud. And no invisible guy needed to threaten me. Imagine that!

Not at all. This has nothing to do with that, Taz.

Don't you believe your life has meaning, Taz? I think you already said as much, right?

If your life has meaning, then don't you want to be proud of what you do on this planet?

My life has meaning and I'm proud of what I accomplished so far, still a ways to go yet, I hope. Why do you feel the need to make things up all the time? Too caught up in your fantasy world with your invisible buddy?

I'm not the one who couldn't see that my statement pertained to life having meaning. You were the one who jumped to God.

For the record, I don't think you are very happy at all with life.

 

[ding]

YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH. Probably because you're jealous of my position.

Everyone sees the ax you are grinding, Taz. It's pretty obvious.

You're jealousy is showing again. Agnosticism is the thinking person's position. You can have all the fantasy.

Don't Fall for That "Got to Have Faith" Line

Are you "agnostic" about Santa Claus? You can't prove a negative about his existence either.

Doesn’t mean I’m agnostic about everything else. It’s a case by case basis. On god I’m agnostic.

He Condemned the Light-Bringer, Just Like Zeus Did to Prometheus

What makes Him so special that you exempt Him from total rejection?

She has.

Don't forget about, death, cancer, heart disease and deformed babies. Deformed babies seem to illicit a lot of emotion from atheists.

 

[OldLady]

"God" is still an important concept for humankind to hang onto, because us arrogant cockawhoops need to know we aren't the be all of the Universe.

However, I don't believe it has to be an institutionalized "God" like the one I was raised to believe in. I don't think there is a God who is like a man/woman and who listens to our prayers and pulls all the strings that make eventual outcomes for us.

As long as we remember there is something much more powerful and awesome in existence than our little schemes and ideas. Humility, I guess, is what I'm pushing for.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Non Sequitur Creates Adam and Eve Non Sequiturs. So NS Must Be God.

First of all, you have no basis for including God just because you are willing to concede that matter had no beginning. Because of that leap in logic, you go on to contradict yourself by talking about "firsts," when you started with neither having a beginning. Third, you assume I can make a judgment on some entity I don't believe exists.

The current discussion includes God. However, if God is disturbing to the reader, the question can be changed to talk about physical matter and intelligence. Which came first...matter or intelligence? Or, were both always in existence--neither preceded the other?

People who cannot concede God should be able to concede intelligence.

The Meek Geek Lets Egotheists Have Their Way With Him

Exactly. Intelligent Design is design by the life-form's own intelligence. Theists invented the term; that doesn't give them the right to appropriate it. So believers in self-appointed authority are stuck with either irrational deification of mere chance or a desperately childish belief in the Father they wish they had had.

However, intelligence comes from Latin, meaning "choosing between." Therefore, it passively accepts the limitations of what is offered, just like our anti-democratic Constitutional politics. In that trap, we "choose" between pre-owned candidates which one will do all our real voting for us. So a fourth choice would be "Creative Design."

Today's High IQs wind up with their brains mutilated and atrophied, because their only positive feedback is how accurately they dumbly repeat what is told to them by their teachers. This desperate love of being indoctrinated is magnified by a cowardly escapism from nerdbashers, who are manipulated by the plutocratic parasites to turn geniuses into wimpy nerdy pushovers so they'll become Cash Cows for Corporate Cowboys.

Tying this together, it means that we are evolving backwards. Welcome to Dark Ages II.

 

[ding]

"God" is still an important concept for humankind to hang onto, because us arrogant cockawhoops need to know we aren't the be all of the Universe.

However, I don't believe it has to be an institutionalized "God" like the one I was raised to believe in. I don't think there is a God who is like a man/woman and who listens to our prayers and pulls all the strings that make eventual outcomes for us.

As long as we remember there is something much more powerful and awesome in existence than our little schemes and ideas. Humility, I guess, is what I'm pushing for.

Good post. Good sentiment.

The Laws of Nature are self compensating which test and correct us without anyone needing to pull any strings.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Virtue is the ultimate organizing principle. A virtuous people will live in peace and harmony. A people devoid of virtue will live in disorder and chaos.

This is the evidence Taz has been seeking as an agnostic.

Is that why the US is in such chaos all the time?

Can you give me an example of a virtuous country living in peace and harmony?

Yes, because we stopped following the moral law.

Yes, there are numerous examples. Here is my witness.

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country. Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society. In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth. In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

"Yes, there are numerous examples." So give me 5.

Early America.

Early China.

Early Israel.

Early Western Civilization.

Early Mesopotamia.

All those examples are filled with war, massacres, rapes-as-a-weapon and slavery. Please try again.

Wounded Knee Pest Control

What makes you believe that all four of those are evil under any circumstances?

 

[ding]

Non Sequitur Creates Adam and Eve Non Sequiturs. So NS Must Be God.

First of all, you have no basis for including God just because you are willing to concede that matter had no beginning. Because of that leap in logic, you go on to contradict yourself by talking about "firsts," when you started with neither having a beginning. Third, you assume I can make a judgment on some entity I don't believe exists.

The current discussion includes God. However, if God is disturbing to the reader, the question can be changed to talk about physical matter and intelligence. Which came first...matter or intelligence? Or, were both always in existence--neither preceded the other?

People who cannot concede God should be able to concede intelligence.

The Meek Geek Lets Egotheists Have Their Way With Him

Exactly. Intelligent Design is design by the life-form's own intelligence. Theists invented the term; that doesn't give them the right to appropriate it. So believers in self-appointed authority are stuck with either irrational deification of mere chance or a desperately childish belief in the Father they wish they had had.

However, intelligence comes from Latin, meaning "choosing between." Therefore, it passively accepts the limitations of what is offered, just like our anti-democratic Constitutional politics. In that trap, we "choose" between pre-owned candidates which one will do all our real voting for us. So a fourth choice would be "Creative Design."

Today's High IQs wind up with their brains mutilated and atrophied, because their only positive feedback is how accurately they dumbly repeat what is told to them by their teachers. This desperate love of being indoctrinated is magnified by a cowardly escapism from nerdbashers, who are manipulated by the plutocratic parasites to turn geniuses into wimpy nerdy pushovers so they'll become Cash Cows for Corporate Cowboys.

Tying this together, it means that we are evolving backwards. Welcome to Dark Ages II.

The seeds of failure are sown in success just as the seeds of success are sown in suffering. The fact that we will have to reach rock bottom before we change our ways is grounded in history and logic. We see the same patterns repeating in history over and over again. Logic tells us that when men become satisfied they become complacent. By complacent I mean to say, they forget the behaviors that made them successful. The behaviors of virtue. Suffering has a unique ability to force men to become virtuous because it is only through these successful behaviors that man can end his suffering. It takes two generations for man to forget suffering. Then it takes two more generations for him to fail. This cycle has been repeated throughout man's history. This not only applies at a societal level but at the individual level just at a much shorter wavelength. Societies and people do not crumble overnight. The rise and fall of people is entirely predictable. Failed behaviors lead to failure and successful behaviors lead to success.

 

[OldLady]

"God" is still an important concept for humankind to hang onto, because us arrogant cockawhoops need to know we aren't the be all of the Universe.

However, I don't believe it has to be an institutionalized "God" like the one I was raised to believe in. I don't think there is a God who is like a man/woman and who listens to our prayers and pulls all the strings that make eventual outcomes for us.

As long as we remember there is something much more powerful and awesome in existence than our little schemes and ideas. Humility, I guess, is what I'm pushing for.

Good post. Good sentiment.

The Laws of Nature are self compensating which test and correct us without anyone needing to pull any strings.

It is terribly hard to explain, though.
I used to be into meditation pretty heavy and a couple of times I achieved a flash of understanding of what the cosmic dance is all about. It's beautiful but not just "pretty" or "good." It's everything, always in motion,
Oh forget it. I can't begin to explain it.

 

[ding]

Non Sequitur Creates Adam and Eve Non Sequiturs. So NS Must Be God.

First of all, you have no basis for including God just because you are willing to concede that matter had no beginning. Because of that leap in logic, you go on to contradict yourself by talking about "firsts," when you started with neither having a beginning. Third, you assume I can make a judgment on some entity I don't believe exists.

The current discussion includes God. However, if God is disturbing to the reader, the question can be changed to talk about physical matter and intelligence. Which came first...matter or intelligence? Or, were both always in existence--neither preceded the other?

People who cannot concede God should be able to concede intelligence.

The Meek Geek Lets Egotheists Have Their Way With Him

Exactly. Intelligent Design is design by the life-form's own intelligence. Theists invented the term; that doesn't give them the right to appropriate it. So believers in self-appointed authority are stuck with either irrational deification of mere chance or a desperately childish belief in the Father they wish they had had.

However, intelligence comes from Latin, meaning "choosing between." Therefore, it passively accepts the limitations of what is offered, just like our anti-democratic Constitutional politics. In that trap, we "choose" between pre-owned candidates which one will do all our real voting for us. So a fourth choice would be "Creative Design."

Today's High IQs wind up with their brains mutilated and atrophied, because their only positive feedback is how accurately they dumbly repeat what is told to them by their teachers. This desperate love of being indoctrinated is magnified by a cowardly escapism from nerdbashers, who are manipulated by the plutocratic parasites to turn geniuses into wimpy nerdy pushovers so they'll become Cash Cows for Corporate Cowboys.

Tying this together, it means that we are evolving backwards. Welcome to Dark Ages II.

Is it not the nature of intelligence to create intelligence?

Is consciousness not the most complex thing produced by space and time?

Is consciousness not evolving just like every stage of the evolution of matter before it?

 

[ding]

"God" is still an important concept for humankind to hang onto, because us arrogant cockawhoops need to know we aren't the be all of the Universe.

However, I don't believe it has to be an institutionalized "God" like the one I was raised to believe in. I don't think there is a God who is like a man/woman and who listens to our prayers and pulls all the strings that make eventual outcomes for us.

As long as we remember there is something much more powerful and awesome in existence than our little schemes and ideas. Humility, I guess, is what I'm pushing for.

Good post. Good sentiment.

The Laws of Nature are self compensating which test and correct us without anyone needing to pull any strings.

It is terribly hard to explain, though.
I used to be into meditation pretty heavy and a couple of times I achieved a flash of understanding of what the cosmic dance is all about. It's beautiful but not just "pretty" or "good." It's everything, always in motion,
Oh forget it. I can't begin to explain it.

You don't need to explain it. The best explanation I can say is being a part of something bigger. I believe we are most receptive to this in the early morning. Why? I don't know. The best I can come up with is that there is only one time of the day we are not aware of our self and that is when we are sleeping. So when we wake up we are probably least full of our self and are more receptive to it. If that makes sense.