Is There Such A Thing As "Right" And "Wrong?"

[emilynghiem]

My conscience determines what I consider to be right or wrong.

I believe the conscience is that place in our being where God communicates to us most often.

You're free to believe that. There's just no reason to accept it as true.

Hi Hollie OK
so what part of your conscience just signalled to you
"there was no reason to accept that as true"

What part of your brain tells you to accept or reject?

What do YOU call the mechanism in your conscience that tells you yes or no,
true or false, consistent or inconsistent?

Isn't that universal to all people, but some have better management skills
over impulses and interpretation/cognitive recognition and intuition than others?

 

[DriftingSand]

Of course there is.

It's defined by anyone with the power to enforce their definition of it for as long as they hold power, whether on an individual, community or corporate basis.

The only reason murder is wrong is because a lot of us agree that it's wrong, and that extends to a willingness to be taxed in order to pay for violent enforcement of a rule against murder.



Religion won't answer this question until one of the gods being worshiped successfully steps in to our reality and violently enforces His Laws among the non believers.

Actually, that's happened more than once in biblical history and it's promised that it will happen again. Believe it or don't believe it. That's between you and God.

But right and wrong aren't just nebulous concepts that float around waiting to be defined. I don't need a society to tell me what its concept of right and wrong is. Society's opinions sway like a reed in the wind. When Cain murdered his brother Abel it was wrong. When Lizzy Borden murdered her parents it was wrong. When Jeffery Dahmer murdered his victims it was wrong. Murder is wrong in Russia, Spain, Israel, Egypt, Canada, Brazil, and the USA. It has been, is, and always will be wrong. On the other hand, treating folks kindly, charitably, and empathetically will always be right no matter what the era or geographical location.

Essentially, statements like this make me think you weren't looking to have an actual discussion. Your motive was to get people who disagree with you to answer, and then to say, "You're wrong! The Bible says so!"

I don't understand how or why this activity entertains you.

So that's your answer as to whether there really is a "right and wrong?" If you actually DO believe in moral standard then can you tell us when and where it originated?

 

[amrchaos]

Sorry, this is a long post--and I do hate writing anything longer than a paragraph or two.

so here it is.

First, I doubt asexual reproduction is an efficent method. Remember, the process does involves the organism "tearing" itself apart to form offsprings. Despite how simple the organism may be, there is something troubling about breaking in two. If we humans were asexual, the problem of doubling every organ would seem painful. Two hearts, 4 kidneys , two brains---and let us not talk about our bone structure!!

On the other hand, asexual reproduction in humans may still be the same as child bearing in women. Then the real question becomes when to give birth? Considering how two humans can produce a child without the means to take care of it, how do you think we would fare, as a species, if only one of us was left with that decision?

That leads to another problem with asexual reproduction. There is the issue that these organisms may not control when they can reproduce. So in the case where there are sparse resources for survival, these organisms could reproduce themselves into starvation. How fortunate we are to have women to tell us no!


Second, the reference to flowers is to get out of the way, ahead of time, the idea that a group of organisms living with each other suggests some kind of social order. I do not mean that at all. What is needed first is that intentional interaction must be present before I can even talk about a social order.

Third—Remember what seperate us from the other lifeforms on this planet. We have the ability to greatly influence the world around us. We also have the ability to gain and send information to each and discover information about each other. So no, I don't think a farm animal would drive cross country to visit family. Fortunately for us, they can't.

On the other hand, animals do possess some means to interact amongst their kind. So if a pack of dogs hunt together, there still exist some means as to divide their catch. Hence they exhibit a simple social order in determining which dog does what and how much is entitled to. Do they sit down at a coffee table and make these decisions. I doubt that very much—so their "decisions" is probably on an instictive level else they will cease to hunt together due to some going hungry.

Of course you have pretty much said that animals herd together to survive. But how they interact in order to stay together is due to their instictual sense of morality. That is, what the animals must do to remain apart of the group, and what the animals should not do to remain.

Strangely, we humans do this to. A society could be considered one large herd or several smaller ones bound together by some commonality. In order to stay apart of the herd, there are actions we can take to remain apart of the group. Also there are actions we could take that will get us kicked out of the group. How an individual come about making a decision on his actions is a reflection of his morals.

We humans tend to think about our morals. Herd animals do it instictively. That is the final point I was trying to make.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Actually, that's happened more than once in biblical history and it's promised that it will happen again. Believe it or don't believe it. That's between you and God.

But right and wrong aren't just nebulous concepts that float around waiting to be defined. I don't need a society to tell me what its concept of right and wrong is. Society's opinions sway like a reed in the wind. When Cain murdered his brother Abel it was wrong. When Lizzy Borden murdered her parents it was wrong. When Jeffery Dahmer murdered his victims it was wrong. Murder is wrong in Russia, Spain, Israel, Egypt, Canada, Brazil, and the USA. It has been, is, and always will be wrong. On the other hand, treating folks kindly, charitably, and empathetically will always be right no matter what the era or geographical location.

There is no proof of the miraculous in history. Admittedly, some of the stories are more convincing than others, but proof eludes.

God's first proven defense of Himself remains in the future.

Sweetheart Joe, What proof do you require? I can give you three documented eye witness accounts of Jesus Christ returning to earth after being pronounced dead. Does He have to come back every Easter?

"Eyewitness" accounts that were spread orally for at least 70 years before being recorded by a frightened political minority during precarious times...

Yeah, that sounds reliable.

Have you read some of the bullshit that Monkeys with a political ax to grind are capable of?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Actually, that's happened more than once in biblical history and it's promised that it will happen again. Believe it or don't believe it. That's between you and God.

But right and wrong aren't just nebulous concepts that float around waiting to be defined. I don't need a society to tell me what its concept of right and wrong is. Society's opinions sway like a reed in the wind. When Cain murdered his brother Abel it was wrong. When Lizzy Borden murdered her parents it was wrong. When Jeffery Dahmer murdered his victims it was wrong. Murder is wrong in Russia, Spain, Israel, Egypt, Canada, Brazil, and the USA. It has been, is, and always will be wrong. On the other hand, treating folks kindly, charitably, and empathetically will always be right no matter what the era or geographical location.

Essentially, statements like this make me think you weren't looking to have an actual discussion. Your motive was to get people who disagree with you to answer, and then to say, "You're wrong! The Bible says so!"

I don't understand how or why this activity entertains you.

So that's your answer as to whether there really is a "right and wrong?" If you actually DO believe in moral standard then can you tell us when and where it originated?

Area of the brain that processes empathy identified -- ScienceDaily

This will show you that empathy is located in the brain and was a product of the evolutionary process.
The quality of empathy was naturally selected because people that worked together had a better rate of survival.
Pretty basic stuff.
No magic, no "poof".
Just biology.
The human brain is several times bigger than an apes and that explains the increase in empathy and communal sense of right in wrong in humans in comparison to the animals.

 

[amrchaos]

Maybe mankind developed morality from an instinctual level.

.......And ever since then we've been kicking ourselves for all the immoral crap we've practiced

 

[DriftingSand]

Essentially, statements like this make me think you weren't looking to have an actual discussion. Your motive was to get people who disagree with you to answer, and then to say, "You're wrong! The Bible says so!"

I don't understand how or why this activity entertains you.

So that's your answer as to whether there really is a "right and wrong?" If you actually DO believe in moral standard then can you tell us when and where it originated?

Area of the brain that processes empathy identified -- ScienceDaily

This will show you that empathy is located in the brain and was a product of the evolutionary process.
The quality of empathy was naturally selected because people that worked together had a better rate of survival.
Pretty basic stuff.
No magic, no "poof".
Just biology.
The human brain is several times bigger than an apes and that explains the increase in empathy and communal sense of right in wrong in humans in comparison to the animals.

The **poof** part has more to do with nothing **poof** exploding into something (without any particular reason). The other **poof** part has to do with another gigantic, gargantuan mistake -- inorganic material **poof** creating life for no particular reason. But I'm certain that if someone squeezes his eyes really tight and exercises his imagination he will come up with a "scientific" explanation as to how these events actually took place. Bottom line? To believe in either **poof** event requires faith in the finite, limited mind of some famous man.

 

[Hollie]

I believe the conscience is that place in our being where God communicates to us most often.

You're free to believe that. There's just no reason to accept it as true.

Hi Hollie OK
so what part of your conscience just signalled to you
"there was no reason to accept that as true"

What part of your brain tells you to accept or reject?

What do YOU call the mechanism in your conscience that tells you yes or no,
true or false, consistent or inconsistent?

Isn't that universal to all people, but some have better management skills
over impulses and interpretation/cognitive recognition and intuition than others?

First you need to define what this "conscience" thing is that you're referring to.

Are you suggesting that it is some god(s) implanted mechanism?

Isn't that universal to all people, but some have better management skills
over impulses and interpretation/cognitive recognition and intuition than others?

Nope. Not people with brain disorders or damage. Similarly, drugs/alcohol can alter the "conscience". Or, maybe the little god(s) on your shoulder telling you what to do have just taken a lunch break.

 

[DriftingSand]

Maybe mankind developed morality from an instinctual level.

.......And ever since then we've been kicking ourselves for all the immoral crap we've practiced

Maybe. Or maybe man was created with an inner sense of morality.

 

[Hollie]

Maybe mankind developed morality from an instinctual level.

.......And ever since then we've been kicking ourselves for all the immoral crap we've practiced

Maybe. Or maybe man was created with an inner sense of morality.

Or not.

You first need to offer something to suggest man was "created". As you believe man was created by god(s) offer something to support your opinion that it was your god(s) who created man and not some other god(s).

 

[DriftingSand]

Maybe mankind developed morality from an instinctual level.

.......And ever since then we've been kicking ourselves for all the immoral crap we've practiced

Maybe. Or maybe man was created with an inner sense of morality.

Or not.

You first need to offer something to suggest man was "created". As you believe man was created by god(s) offer something to support your opinion that it was your god(s) who created man and not some other god(s).

I need to offer something that suggests that man was created? Genesis chapter 1.

 

[DriftingSand]

You're free to believe that. There's just no reason to accept it as true.

Hi Hollie OK
so what part of your conscience just signalled to you
"there was no reason to accept that as true"

What part of your brain tells you to accept or reject?

What do YOU call the mechanism in your conscience that tells you yes or no,
true or false, consistent or inconsistent?

Isn't that universal to all people, but some have better management skills
over impulses and interpretation/cognitive recognition and intuition than others?

First you need to define what this "conscience" thing is that you're referring to.

Are you suggesting that it is some god(s) implanted mechanism?

Isn't that universal to all people, but some have better management skills
over impulses and interpretation/cognitive recognition and intuition than others?

Nope. Not people with brain disorders or damage. Similarly, drugs/alcohol can alter the "conscience". Or, maybe the little god(s) on your shoulder telling you what to do have just taken a lunch break.

If you don't already know what a conscience is then it's not likely that anyone can explain it to you.

I'm more that implying it. I'm stating it as a truth. Way back in the beginning, Adam and Eve felt guilt when they did wrong in the Garden of Eden. Cain, their eldest son, felt guilt for murdering his brother, Abel. So a sense of right and wrong existed back at man's origins.

 

[Hollie]

Maybe. Or maybe man was created with an inner sense of morality.

Or not.

You first need to offer something to suggest man was "created". As you believe man was created by god(s) offer something to support your opinion that it was your god(s) who created man and not some other god(s).

I need to offer something that suggests that man was created? Genesis chapter 1.

I mean't something for grown up discussion.

 

[DriftingSand]

Or not.

You first need to offer something to suggest man was "created". As you believe man was created by god(s) offer something to support your opinion that it was your god(s) who created man and not some other god(s).

I need to offer something that suggests that man was created? Genesis chapter 1.

I mean't something for grown up discussion.

Or perhaps for the more immature mind. There are children's books that describe the Genesis story too.

 

[Hollie]

I need to offer something that suggests that man was created? Genesis chapter 1.

I mean't something for grown up discussion.

Or perhaps for the more immature mind. There are children's books that describe the Genesis story too.

There are children's books that describe big bad wolves who huff and puff and blow houses down. So what?

 

[DriftingSand]

I mean't something for grown up discussion.

Or perhaps for the more immature mind. There are children's books that describe the Genesis story too.

There are children's books that describe big bad wolves who huff and puff and blow houses down. So what?

There are also children's books that try to teach children that organisms **poofed** in to existence by pure mistake. Once upon there was a rock ... then, like magic, it gave birth to a fish.

 

[Hollie]

So that's your answer as to whether there really is a "right and wrong?" If you actually DO believe in moral standard then can you tell us when and where it originated?

Area of the brain that processes empathy identified -- ScienceDaily

This will show you that empathy is located in the brain and was a product of the evolutionary process.
The quality of empathy was naturally selected because people that worked together had a better rate of survival.
Pretty basic stuff.
No magic, no "poof".
Just biology.
The human brain is several times bigger than an apes and that explains the increase in empathy and communal sense of right in wrong in humans in comparison to the animals.

The **poof** part has more to do with nothing **poof** exploding into something (without any particular reason). The other **poof** part has to do with another gigantic, gargantuan mistake -- inorganic material **poof** creating life for no particular reason. But I'm certain that if someone squeezes his eyes really tight and exercises his imagination he will come up with a "scientific" explanation as to how these events actually took place. Bottom line? To believe in either **poof** event requires faith in the finite, limited mind of some famous man.

What part of the **poof** are your gods exempted from and why?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Or perhaps for the more immature mind. There are children's books that describe the Genesis story too.

There are children's books that describe big bad wolves who huff and puff and blow houses down. So what?

There are also children's books that try to teach children that organisms **poofed** in to existence by pure mistake. Once upon there was a rock ... then, like magic, it gave birth to a fish.

Can you cite a resource that makes that case?
I am betting with everything I have that you can't.

 

[Hollie]

Or perhaps for the more immature mind. There are children's books that describe the Genesis story too.

There are children's books that describe big bad wolves who huff and puff and blow houses down. So what?

There are also children's books that try to teach children that organisms **poofed** in to existence by pure mistake. Once upon there was a rock ... then, like magic, it gave birth to a fish.

A rock gave birth to a fish. That's as silly as ....well... fat naked babies playing harps, pearly gates, (or is it Golden Arches), winged horses cruising through the clouds and men in robes floating on the clouds.

 

[DriftingSand]

Area of the brain that processes empathy identified -- ScienceDaily

This will show you that empathy is located in the brain and was a product of the evolutionary process.
The quality of empathy was naturally selected because people that worked together had a better rate of survival.
Pretty basic stuff.
No magic, no "poof".
Just biology.
The human brain is several times bigger than an apes and that explains the increase in empathy and communal sense of right in wrong in humans in comparison to the animals.

The **poof** part has more to do with nothing **poof** exploding into something (without any particular reason). The other **poof** part has to do with another gigantic, gargantuan mistake -- inorganic material **poof** creating life for no particular reason. But I'm certain that if someone squeezes his eyes really tight and exercises his imagination he will come up with a "scientific" explanation as to how these events actually took place. Bottom line? To believe in either **poof** event requires faith in the finite, limited mind of some famous man.

What part of the **poof** are your gods exempted from and why?

Cause and effect. For every effect there is a cause. There can only be one 1st cause. The first cause is un-caused -- otherwise it wouldn't the first cause. Therefore, the first cause is eternal and un-caused. Since the universe reflects masterful design and was caused it must have been caused by a Masterful Designer.