Is Washington Fighting Russia down to the Last Ukrainian?

[bendog]

It's heartbreaking to see it...
Awful!

Jo

Ukraine's already dropped the nato bid.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

It's not wise to bet on the outcome. It's highly questionable whether Russia can win. And don't discount the possibility of this going nuclear.

If it does, America will almost certainly be the target.

Everything now points to this being the making of a world war!

It does point to a global conflict. This is what the world elites and govt heads want.

 

[bendog]

Ukraine is negotiating. All Russia has to to is GTFO. And probably pay a lot in reparations.

what should Ukraine give up, sunniman?

 

[Stormy Daniels]

Yes, the US deliberately caused this war by waging a campaign against the previous Ukraine government, bribing a new one with billions, and getting them to commit so many crimes that Russia had no choice.

Sarcasm?

 

[Thunderbird]

Isn't this an issue for Ukrainians? If they choose not to accept any surrender/peace that involves their choice of govt or territorial integrity, why shouldn't we keep arming them with everything we can that cannot be used offensively? Or at least, I can see why the US should not provide planes that could bomb russian civilians

Your plan leads to:
1) Lots of dead bodies
2) Xi Jin Ping applauds as the US becomes bogged down in E Europe.
3) The possibility of WW III

How about deescalation instead?

 

[Donald H]

It does point to a global conflict. This is what the world elites and govt heads want.

It larely depends on Russia's side becoming a significant opponent to the West. If Russia is singled out and marginalized then they have *lost.

*barring nuclear war.

This relates to the writer's point on the last Ukrainian.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

It larely depends on Russia's side becoming a significant opponent to the West. If Russia is singled out and marginalized then they have *lost.

*barring nuclear war.

This relates to the writer's point on the last Ukrainian.

They are being singled out however, they have more than 6,000 nuclear warheads many in the 10-100 megaton range. They are a significant opponent to the world.

 

[Donald H]

Why do you think Washington has a say? It doesn't matter what the West wants, they are not direct participants.

There's nothing to gain by spamming the thread and you're for sure not going to hook me into debating the 'nothing burger' point.

 

[Donald H]

They are being singled out however, they have more than 6,000 nuclear warheads many in the 10-100 megaton range. They are a significant opponent to the world.

The suggestion was/is that Russia might not be singled out. If you didn't 'get it' then think about it and debate the question with yourself.

If that leads you to any questions I could possibly answer, just ask. Don't bother me with frivolous bullshit, I don't have the time.

 

[Rogue AI]

There's nothing to gain by spamming the thread and you're for sure not going to hook me into debating the 'nothing burger' point.

I replied once, how is that spamming? Perhaps if you made a valid argument to back your second rate opinions you wouldn't get attacked on all sides. The West has no claim to any negotiations, if Putin pushes this to unconditional surrender, that's how it ends.

 

[Thunderbird]

Why do you think Washington has a say? It doesn't matter what the West wants, they are not direct participants.

Zelensky will do exactly as he is told by Western leaders. Without Western weapons he would have no chance. Western leaders should tell him to shut up about a no-fly zone (which could lead to WW III) and to accept any reasonable offer from the Kremlin.

 

[bendog]

Your plan leads to:
1) Lots of dead bodies
2) Xi Jin Ping applauds as the US becomes bogged down in E Europe.
3) The possibility of WW III

How about deescalation instead?

How do you plan to de-escalate if Putin gains territory? At one point there was a possibility of a non-militarized Ukraine, with some partition and self-govt in part of Donbass and perhaps even Russia "buying" crimea with natl gas Ukraine already "took."

The US isn't getting "bogged down" in E. Europe. Russia's econ is on a par with Italy. No Americans are going to war.

The US is paying a lot more for oil than even OPEC was planning. ANd the EU is having to move up its date for energy independence.

And sadly, the US might actually benefit economically by drilling more oil and selling LNG to europe. I wouldn't put that calculation past the neocons.

 

[Thunderbird]

Ukraine's already dropped the nato bid.

Why do say that?

It’s great news if true. It could mean peace: Moscow Says Attack Will End 'In a Moment' If Ukraine Agrees to Demands

 

[bendog]

Why do say that?

It’s great news if true. It could mean peace: Moscow Says Attack Will End 'In a Moment' If Ukraine Agrees to Demands

The problem will be that Nato would have to agree to enfore any Putin agreement

Biden to announce $800M in new aid for Ukraine; Russian forces take 500 hostages in Mariupol hospital, official says: March 15 recap

President Joe Biden on Wednesday is expected to announce an additional $800 million in military aid for Ukraine. Tuesday's recap.

news.yahoo.com

That's not happening. And, I don't see Ukraine agreeing to give up any territory. That's not Zelensky. Rather, Putin has really pissed off those folks. Time is not on his side. Unless his troops are inside Putin's own borders, it's pretty easy for them to "immigrate."

 

[Thunderbird]

How do you plan to de-escalate if Putin gains territory? At one point there was a possibility of a non-militarized Ukraine, with some partition and self-govt in part of Donbass and perhaps even Russia "buying" crimea with natl gas Ukraine already "took."

The US isn't getting "bogged down" in E. Europe. Russia's econ is on a par with Italy. No Americans are going to war.

The US is paying a lot more for oil than even OPEC was planning. ANd the EU is having to move up its date for energy independence.

And sadly, the US might actually benefit economically by drilling more oil and selling LNG to europe. I wouldn't put that calculation past the neocons.

According to the Kremlin:

"They should make amendments to the constitution according to which Ukraine would reject any aims to enter any bloc," Peskov told Reuters on Monday, reiterating a longstanding Moscow demand. "We have also spoken about how they should recognize that Crimea is Russian territory and that they need to recognize that Donetsk and Lugansk are independent states. And that's it. It will stop in a moment."

I think everybody can live with these conditions. If they are met Putin (hopefully) will withdraw most of his troops. I imagine Ukraine and Russia will haggle about the Donbas and Mariupol for all eternity.

The US is moving troops to Poland and Romania and giving billions in aid to Ukraine. If the war escalates the US could end up spending considerable $$$.

 

[bendog]

According to the Kremlin:

"They should make amendments to the constitution according to which Ukraine would reject any aims to enter any bloc," Peskov told Reuters on Monday, reiterating a longstanding Moscow demand. "We have also spoken about how they should recognize that Crimea is Russian territory and that they need to recognize that Donetsk and Lugansk are independent states. And that's it. It will stop in a moment."

I think everybody can live with these conditions. If they are met Putin (hopefully) will withdraw most of his troops. I imagine Ukraine and Russia will haggle about the Donbas and Mariupol for all eternity.

The US is moving troops to Poland and Romania and giving billions in aid to Ukraine. If the war escalates the US could end up spending considerable $$$.

Why should Russia tell anyone not to enter into trade with the EU or any "bloc" it wants. Russia is simply attempteing to recreate a "Russia exclusionary trade zone."? They tried it without troops occupying their "former republics" and nobody wanted to join up ... outside belarus.

By definition, Russia is seeking to make Ukraine a vassal state.

 

[Thunderbird]

The problem will be that Nato would have to agree to enfore any Putin agreement

Biden to announce $800M in new aid for Ukraine; Russian forces take 500 hostages in Mariupol hospital, official says: March 15 recap

President Joe Biden on Wednesday is expected to announce an additional $800 million in military aid for Ukraine. Tuesday's recap.

news.yahoo.com

That's not happening. And, I don't see Ukraine agreeing to give up any territory. That's not Zelensky. Rather, Putin has really pissed off those folks. Time is not on his side. Unless his troops are inside Putin's own borders, it's pretty easy for them to "immigrate."

It looks like the two sides are close to agreement.

Are you saying NATO would not agree to a Ukraine outside of NATO?

Western leaders should be able to tell Zelensky what to do. They control his supply of weapons right? Zelensky can be instructed to accept reasonable territorial adjustments.

 

[bendog]

It looks like the two sides are close to agreement.

Are you saying NATO would not agree to a Ukraine outside of NATO?

Western leaders should be able to tell Zelensky what to do. They control his supply of weapons right? Zelensky can be instructed to accept reasonable territorial adjustments.

So you say on an agreement. I'm pretty sure PUtin would like to go back in time about three weeks. I'm sure Ukraine would rather not have thousands dead and destroyed cities. But any deal is predicated on Putin abiding by it .... or being forced to.

The reason european countries have opted for a self-imposed gdp reduction is that Nato countries know they could be next on Putin's list.

 

[Thunderbird]

Why should Russia tell anyone not to enter into trade with the EU or any "bloc" it wants. Russia is simply attempteing to recreate a "Russia exclusionary trade zone."? They tried it without troops occupying their "former republics" and nobody wanted to join up ... outside belarus.

By definition, Russia is seeking to make Ukraine a vassal state.

In the real world powerful countries have spheres of influence. NATO has been invading Russian space for years, even moving into the Baltic republics.

Russia and the US can both accept a neutral independent Ukraine.

If you really want to stand up for small nations bullied by big nations I suggest you wait until China invades Taiwan.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

The suggestion was/is that Russia might not be singled out. If you didn't 'get it' then think about it and debate the question with yourself.

If that leads you to any questions I could possibly answer, just ask. Don't bother me with frivolous bullshit, I don't have the time.

Thats not frivolous. Those are facts that need to be addressed.