Is "Water" a Human Right?

[Mathbud1]

So tear up the water bill ?

No, supply water to those who cannot, or have not, paid..............if they can pay, and do not, a lien placed on their property for the unpaid bill may be collected. If they cannot pay, the lien remains. Sometimes poor people inherit money, or win money. The liens might then be paid.

And when the City can't afford to run the expensive equipment that purifies the water we do what exactly next? Hope some liens come in?

 

[Mathbud1]

Going to bed. Can't wait to hear what the generally poor rabid Fox News junkies will say next, but I have to get sleep.

They will keep fighting for profit over humanity. Basics.

You do realize that it is the City of Detroit that runs the Detroit Water and Sewer Department (DWSD) and not a private evil corporation out for profit right? And that that is typically the case in most cities? You do realize that running a water treatment facility costs money do you not? And that paying based on usage is the most fair means of sharing that cost? You do realize that the DWSD is over $5 billion dollars in debt right? Should I keep going?

 

[Mathbud1]

Yeah..water is a right.

And it falls under general welfare.

A human body will die after 3 days without water.

Governor Rick Snyder is an asshole.

Yo Vern

In that case let the citizens of detroit go to Lake Michigan , fill up their buckets with water and carry it back to their residences. Its their right.

The name Michigan is the French form of the Ojibwa word mishigamaa, meaning "large water" or "large lake".

.

Why is it you folks always take the most inhumane fucked up position on any issue?

Shutting off the water for people is despicable and patently stupid.

Those pipes are made to have water flowing through them all the time. Shutting the water off is crazy. Aside from drying up the seals? The pipes function best at a certain temperature which needs to be maintained.

I remember when I worked in a warehouse and the bosses got the brilliant idea of shutting off the heat. Kept it off all winter. Froze up the pipes.

Which all exploded and caused millions in damage.

That was a dumbfuck thing to do then..and it's a dumbfuck thing to do in Detroit.

Instead they should give the water away.

Even though providing the water costs money and the DWSD is already $5 billion in debt.

Oh and we can't have them raising water prices either because that would disadvantage even more poor folk.

So where exactly are we going to get the money to keep the water treatment facilities running again?

 

[Mathbud1]

Why is it you folks always take the most inhumane fucked up position on any issue?

Shutting off the water for people is despicable and patently stupid.

Those pipes are made to have water flowing through them all the time. Shutting the water off is crazy. Aside from drying up the seals? The pipes function best at a certain temperature which needs to be maintained.

I remember when I worked in a warehouse and the bosses got the brilliant idea of shutting off the heat. Kept it off all winter. Froze up the pipes.

Which all exploded and caused millions in damage.

That was a dumbfuck thing to do then..and it's a dumbfuck thing to do in Detroit.

So your suggesting that water should be free ?

I'm suggesting the water SHOULD NOT be turned off.

We don't live in a fucking third world country.

This is beyond nonsense.

Calling it nonsense is not a solution. Propose a better one.

 

[Rotagilla]

Yo Vern

In that case let the citizens of detroit go to Lake Michigan , fill up their buckets with water and carry it back to their residences. Its their right.

The name Michigan is the French form of the Ojibwa word mishigamaa, meaning "large water" or "large lake".

.

Why is it you folks always take the most inhumane fucked up position on any issue?

Shutting off the water for people is despicable and patently stupid.

Those pipes are made to have water flowing through them all the time. Shutting the water off is crazy. Aside from drying up the seals? The pipes function best at a certain temperature which needs to be maintained.

I remember when I worked in a warehouse and the bosses got the brilliant idea of shutting off the heat. Kept it off all winter. Froze up the pipes.

Which all exploded and caused millions in damage.

That was a dumbfuck thing to do then..and it's a dumbfuck thing to do in Detroit.

Instead they should give the water away.

Even though providing the water costs money and the DWSD is already $5 billion in debt.

Oh and we can't have them raising water prices either because that would disadvantage even more poor folk.

So where exactly are we going to get the money to keep the water treatment facilities running again?

From the "govt", of course. Take money from productive people in order to pay for parasites and freeloaders. It's the american way.

 

[Mathbud1]

Ok, read the article....

FIRST, the gvt was at fault to go after poor citizens before going after the commercial businesses that are delinquent which accounts for 50% of the money delinquent.

It was INHUMANE for the gvt to go after the poorest among us while NOT going after the commercial businesses being late....can't repeat this enough.

Second, there are programs for the poorest among us to get help paying their water bills, but the gvt and workers in these areas are giving the poorest citizens the wrong information on what it takes to qualify for help so many of these that are the poorest among us are not being helped, even though they really do qualify for help....but in addition to this, the rules to help are still mountains to climb over, and that needs correcting.

Don't cut off water, as peach said, put a lean on their homes...if you have to...and if they don't qualify for financial help paying for their water bill.

They have the sickest children in the Nation, already in this community....it is costing the gvt already in higher medicaid costs, without clean water, this only becomes worse and more costly....

the stupid gvt is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I'm not going to say that you are absolutely wrong that they should have gone after businesses first, but think about this for a second:

If a business is not paying its water bill, you can bet they are in trouble. Demanding payment from them will likely put them out of business. Shutting off their water will get them shut down for code violations. When they are shut down they no longer pay their employees. Employees who had been paying their water bills can no longer afford to. Problem multiplies.

Residential shutdown on the other hand only directly affects the residents. No propogation of the problem.

Just food for thought.

 

[Mathbud1]

It's important to define the basis of what further logic and reason rests upon. All reasoning begins with postulates and axioms that cannot be proven and must there for sstand on their own.

The two rights you propose are not so easily answered without setting forth some circumstance within which it is examined. And, we lack some basic axioms.

Are we discussing a Robinson Cruiso situation? O are we considering a large, complex, working societ?

I have one axiom, that of symetery. I am oligated to treat you in no better manner than you treat me and others.

Words and phrases have no other purpose than to transfer information from one person to others. If words and/or phrases are vague, then so is the information transfered. Therefore, we need to maintain the pureness of meaning to maintain the accuracy of information transfer. For example, an axiom is a truth so obvious that it does not require proof. Axioms are used to build theorems through deductive reasoning.

A 'right' as used here, is a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something, or to act in a certain way. Human rights are moral rights that are not necessarily legal rights. Are all people morally entitled to water for personal sustenance? Yes, without a doubt. Are all people legally entitled to water for personal sustenance? I would say yes.

Now, the hard question. Are people entitled to have someone else, or some entity, private or public, provide that water to them? Yes, no, and maybe. If that someone else, or some entity, has a government permit that provides them the sole distributorship of water to a specified area, then I would say that someone, or entity, has both a moral and legal obligation to ensure all people in that area have adequate access to water for simple sustenance.

In Detroit, for example, the city should have already established public water sources where people, who have had their water shut off for non payment, can fill their jugs and buckets for water to sustain life. They should also provide for human waste disposal, since toilets no longer flush.

The OP article mentioned sanitation. I feel this is an important point. We do not want people's toilet water being shut off. Personal sanitation problems quickly become everyone elses sanitation problems. I believe that the cost of clean up, after the fact, is far greater than the cost of keeping their toilet supplied.

The question of what is and isn't a "right" becomes meaningless pretty fast when the real consequences of not providing adequate sanitation is accepted.

Unless you are hoping they will die and stop pissing and shitting. Even then, you still have the issue of decaying corpses.

Anyone up for a cost-benefit analysis?

DYK: You can flush a toilet by manually filling the tank first. Grab a bucket.

(Sorry, DYK kinda sounds bad. Did You Know)

 

[williepete]

Calling it nonsense is not a solution. Propose a better one.

Here's one from the school of "The best way to convince a fool he's wrong is to let him have his own way".

-Tell the water company to supply water for everyone for no cost.
-Without income, the company will lay off its workers and close.
-With no water company to supply water, everyone is without water.
-Now they're back to square one except instead of just the deadbeats out of water, everyone is.

Now that they're back to square one, the city will have to solve the problem of water delivery since the give everyone free stuff plan didn't work--again.

 

[Mathbud1]

Anything we decide is a right, is a right.

Nonsense.

Rights are things you have by virtue of being human. The only thing they get for you, is that no one can take them away. But there is no right that people have to put in effort to give you. That includes medical care, a job, food... and water.

You have a right to life. That means no one is allowed to murder you. But it doesn't mean you automatically get the things you need to sustain life (food, water, shelter, medical care etc.). You still have to seek those out and obtain them for yourself.

Clear now?

"Rights are things you have by virtue of being human. "

The problem is that this statement doesn't mean anything. It can mean anything.

"By virtue of being human" is everything that is human. Humans eat, drink, watch TV. Humans need shelter from the element, the cold and heat. People wear clothes. People read. People eat and enjoy quality food. People get sick and require health care. By virtue of being human, all these are true.

So, are all of these rights? Do we have the inalienable right to watch T.V.?

Clear now?

Watching T.V does not automatically follow from being human. Reading does not automatically follow from being human. Wearing clothes does not automatically follow from being human.

You can be human and not do any of those things.

Rights can mean a lot of things. It is an incredibly debatable philosphical issue. Natural Rights vs. Artificial Rights.

 

[Mathbud1]

Human beings can't live without it, so yes.

Since it is almost everywhere....Why not?

The complaint is really the fact that some govts aren't providing free water to people.

But the thing is the water isn't free, whether it is paid through taxes or by fees to private companies. There is no evidence a private company would be more efficient than Enron was though, as often water and electricity has to be subsidized just to keep it affordable.

That looks like flawed logic. "That private companies could provide cheaper water is false because the current public water scheme has to be subsidized to stay affordable."

You'll have to provide some real reasoning to support the argument that private companies could not provide cheaper water which would not then need subsidizing to stay affordable, if you want to convince anyone.

 

[Avorysuds]

No water is not a right and you're an moron if you think it is. Water should be protected from pollution yes, but that's simple to understand as to why. But no right should demand something be provided for an individual from another.

Once we go down that road of forcing people to buy things for others... wait... SHIT!

 

[Mathbud1]

gees, 2 months of being late on their water bill is being called getting it for free when in 12 months, they paid 10 months of the bill, and 2 months are late? so if it costs $1200 a year for their water, they have paid $1000 of it and owe $200 and this is ''getting'' their water for FREE?

Coincidentally I had my well drilled for 1200 dollars...in 1979.

But on topic, all Americans should have access to water regardless of their ability to pay. Water should be like public education, fire protection, or law enforcement; it should be publicly funded where necessary and available at the very least in an amount proportionate to basic needs at no other cost to the citizen.

Then some people will use far more than others of the supply because they have no financial incentive to limit their use. Then everyone has to share the burden of a few morons who forget to turn off the water after brushing their teeth, or who like letting their shower warm up while they floss for ten minutes.

 

[Mathbud1]

Coincidentally I had my well drilled for 1200 dollars...in 1979.

But on topic, all Americans should have access to water regardless of their ability to pay. Water should be like public education, fire protection, or law enforcement; it should be publicly funded where necessary and available at the very least in an amount proportionate to basic needs at no other cost to the citizen.

HUH?

Did they close Lake Michigan?

Have they banned buckets?

Say it aint so.

.

You're saying when a poor person's house catches fire, they should have to depend on a bucket brigade because the fire department shouldn't put out poor people's fires?

You are mentally retarded.

Are you saying that currently the fire department won't put out the fire in a house that was cut off for not paying their bills?

 

[Care4all]

Yo Vern

In that case let the citizens of detroit go to Lake Michigan , fill up their buckets with water and carry it back to their residences. Its their right.

The name Michigan is the French form of the Ojibwa word mishigamaa, meaning "large water" or "large lake".

.

Why is it you folks always take the most inhumane fucked up position on any issue?

Shutting off the water for people is despicable and patently stupid.

Those pipes are made to have water flowing through them all the time. Shutting the water off is crazy. Aside from drying up the seals? The pipes function best at a certain temperature which needs to be maintained.

I remember when I worked in a warehouse and the bosses got the brilliant idea of shutting off the heat. Kept it off all winter. Froze up the pipes.

Which all exploded and caused millions in damage.

That was a dumbfuck thing to do then..and it's a dumbfuck thing to do in Detroit.

Instead they should give the water away.

Even though providing the water costs money and the DWSD is already $5 billion in debt.

Oh and we can't have them raising water prices either because that would disadvantage even more poor folk.

So where exactly are we going to get the money to keep the water treatment facilities running again?

I would suggest, that their 5 billion in debt that Detroit's Water Facility is purportedly in, (even with Detroit having the HIGHEST COST FOR WATER IN THE NATION), is due to the City's mismanagement and NOT due to these citizens who are having trouble paying the highest prices for water in the Nation.

The article said that the Detroit water works facility fairly recently, laid off 600 WORKERS, and they seem to be doing just fine without them....they were over bloated....I'd say that's mismanagement.

And then there is this:

In Detroit, where 35 billion gallons of water leak from the city’s decaying water system each year, residents pay about $25 million annually for
water that never reaches homes or businesses.
14
With an unemployment rate of
20 percent and facing a $47 million budget shortfall by June 2012, the Motor
City is even less in a position to confront its water infrastructure needs.
15
Indeed,
in economically depressed cities such as Detroit, the burden for upgrading
municipal water systems will fall disproportionately on people living on fixed
incomes, low incomes, and the unemployed

Just think about it...in order to survive and live in today's society, we each use about the same amount of water a day...we need to all drink X amount, we all use the toilet about the same, we all take showers every day, we all cook with water occasionally....

But for those poorest among us, that water bill in Detroit that is super high, HITS them disproportionately in relation to their income....it would be harder for them to keep up with paying these high water bills compared with an average middle class family or a family that is wealthier....

So, mismanagement of the Detroit government, for decades, is what has put the Water Works Division of Detroit and IS THE ROOT of the problem....and yes, it was Democrats running the show there and they are at fault, at least for most of it, imo....and I am a Liberal, from birth, from head to toe, always have been and always will be!

=============================

As far as your other post regarding leaving businesses with running water while disconnecting 35000 or so Families.

I thought about the things you mentioned, before you even mentioned them! And the points are fuel for thought!

but I put a pencil to it, the best that I could without knowing all of the details regarding these businesses that were delinquent...so I used what I did know....

and what I did know is that 11% of all late bills, came from commercial businesses....and a figure of 40,000 was thrown out in the article about people being late....

11% of the 40k, is 4400 accounts, 4400 business accounts that were late, that accounted for 50% of the money past due.

The gvt decided, to get 50% of their money due, they would send hundreds of UNIONIZED, (meaning very high paying workers, and I have nothing against Union workers, but this is noted, due to knowing they get paid better than the average Joe out there) Waterworks Facility workers, out in to the city, to shut off 35,000 homes all at once, from receiving water and the use of their toilets....

When they could have sent dozens of workers out to shut off 4400 businesses, that owed the same amount of money.

Now as a Business person myself, I'd call that mismanagement of funds, when you are paying for 35000 shut offs, vs paying employees to shut off 4400 businesses, for the same amount of money recouped in return. And, my guess is that the Businesses, have more resources to borrow money and get money to pay their water bill than those that are poor and struggling, with no resources for extra money.

Let alone putting residents in risk of Cholera, and other disgusting and dangerous diseases....that the city would have to pay for and the federal government with medicaid or visits to the ER for the uninsured....let alone possible death....

In the 20th century, in the USA, the average life span for people grew by 35 years....30 of those added years to our lives, come from the government getting us clean water, and good sanitation....I just heard that this morning on a program I was watching on the history channel...(it was kind of Twilite zone-ish that the channel I was on was even talking about clean water )

 

[Mathbud1]

This lady that the governor appointed for the Detroit Bankruptcy is insane...imo, and btw.

Let me get this straight, paying your bill 2 months late is equivalent to not paying your bill and getting "free stuff"?

And you all are worried that YOUR tax dollars are going to have to be used to pay for this "free stuff" these Black people get, even though this is CLEARLY the city of Detroit's Municipal taxes along with recipients bills paying for THEIR water system and it does not involve YOU at all?

And know that 78% I believe I read, of the citizens in Detroit ARE African American/Black, and it's their tax dollars that would go towards this, IF ANY CITY TAX DOLLARS AT ALL actually ever goes to pay for the water bills AT ALL!

....running 2 months behind on their bills, MEANS JUST THAT....they are running behind on paying them, BUT THEY ARE PAYING THEM,

NOT YOU
NOT the city of DETROIT

THESE PEOPLE ARE PAYING their OWN water bills, PLUS HUGE PENALTIES for them paying late that MORE than recoup's the city's loss on not getting paid on time.

What the city has chosen to do, because of the governor's appointee is a DISGRACE, and IS ONLY BEING DONE, because they want to sell their water responsibilities off to one lucky and friendly to them, Private Company/Corporation.

I CALL BULL CRUD!

You use 12 months of water. You pay for 10 months of water. You're not getting 2 months of water for free?

 

[Mathbud1]

Water is free. All you have to do is get some buckets, jugs and barrels and go fetch it out of the lake or river. If you want me to dig a long ditch from the source to your house, lay down pipe in the ditch, and pump the water through the pipe so it reaches your house at some predetermined amount of pressure and volume, you are going to have to pay me for that.

So, you own a water company?

I know I don't, but I'd sure be willing to set one up for the right financial incentive.

(I think the poster was using a metaphorical "me" rather than a literal one though.)

 

[Rotagilla]

Why is it you folks always take the most inhumane fucked up position on any issue?

Shutting off the water for people is despicable and patently stupid.

Those pipes are made to have water flowing through them all the time. Shutting the water off is crazy. Aside from drying up the seals? The pipes function best at a certain temperature which needs to be maintained.

I remember when I worked in a warehouse and the bosses got the brilliant idea of shutting off the heat. Kept it off all winter. Froze up the pipes.

Which all exploded and caused millions in damage.

That was a dumbfuck thing to do then..and it's a dumbfuck thing to do in Detroit.

Instead they should give the water away.

Even though providing the water costs money and the DWSD is already $5 billion in debt.

Oh and we can't have them raising water prices either because that would disadvantage even more poor folk.

So where exactly are we going to get the money to keep the water treatment facilities running again?

I would suggest, that their 5 billion in debt that Detroit's Water Facility is purportedly in, (even with Detroit having the HIGHEST COST FOR WATER IN THE NATION), is due to the City's mismanagement and NOT due to these citizens who are having trouble paying the highest prices for water in the Nation.

The article said that the Detroit water works facility fairly recently, laid off 600 WORKERS, and they seem to be doing just fine without them....they were over bloated....I'd say that's mismanagement.

And then there is this:

In Detroit, where 35 billion gallons of water leak from the city’s decaying water system each year, residents pay about $25 million annually for
water that never reaches homes or businesses.
14
With an unemployment rate of
20 percent and facing a $47 million budget shortfall by June 2012, the Motor
City is even less in a position to confront its water infrastructure needs.
15
Indeed,
in economically depressed cities such as Detroit, the burden for upgrading
municipal water systems will fall disproportionately on people living on fixed
incomes, low incomes, and the unemployed

Just think about it...in order to survive and live in today's society, we each use about the same amount of water a day...we need to all drink X amount, we all use the toilet about the same, we all take showers every day, we all cook with water occasionally....

But for those poorest among us, that water bill in Detroit that is super high, HITS them disproportionately in relation to their income....it would be harder for them to keep up with paying these high water bills compared with an average middle class family or a family that is wealthier....

So, mismanagement of the Detroit government, for decades, is what has put the Water Works Division of Detroit and IS THE ROOT of the problem....and yes, it was Democrats running the show there and they are at fault, at least for most of it, imo....and I am a Liberal, from birth, from head to toe, always have been and always will be!

=============================

As far as your other post regarding leaving businesses with running water while disconnecting 35000 or so Families.

I thought about the things you mentioned, before you even mentioned them! And the points are fuel for thought!

but I put a pencil to it, the best that I could without knowing all of the details regarding these businesses that were delinquent...so I used what I did know....

and what I did know is that 11% of all late bills, came from commercial businesses....and a figure of 40,000 was thrown out in the article about people being late....

11% of the 40k, is 4400 accounts, 4400 business accounts that were late, that accounted for 50% of the money past due.

The gvt decided, to get 50% of their money due, they would send hundreds of UNIONIZED, (meaning very high paying workers, and I have nothing against Union workers, but this is noted, due to knowing they get paid better than the average Joe out there) Waterworks Facility workers, out in to the city, to shut off 35,000 homes all at once, from receiving water and the use of their toilets....

When they could have sent dozens of workers out to shut off 4400 businesses, that owed the same amount of money.

Now as a Business person myself, I'd call that mismanagement of funds, when you are paying for 35000 shut offs, vs paying employees to shut off 4400 businesses, for the same amount of money recouped in return. And, my guess is that the Businesses, have more resources to borrow money and get money to pay their water bill than those that are poor and struggling, with no resources for extra money.

Let alone putting residents in risk of Cholera, and other disgusting and dangerous diseases....that the city would have to pay for and the federal government with medicaid or visits to the ER for the uninsured....let alone possible death....

In the 20th century, in the USA, the average life span for people grew by 35 years....30 of those added years to our lives, come from the government getting us clean water, and good sanitation....I just heard that this morning on a program I was watching on the history channel...(it was kind of Twilite zone-ish that the channel I was on was even talking about clean water )

fascinating attempt to distract;Nevertheless;

Either pay your water bill (or in your case your mom pays it) or your water gets shut off.

Simple.

 

[Mathbud1]

Is "Water" a Human Right?
Yes.

You have a right to however much water you can legally obtain.
You do not have a right to have someone else pay for the water you use.

"You don't deserve a life if you can't pay for it" seems to be the argument here.

Blind people have it tough in America. Who are you to think you can get a freebee life just because you are blind. You think you can get free water? MOOCH........(R)ight?

Luckily We The People decided long ago that we will help the truly needy, not to be confused with Fox New's perspective of who is needy...

We the people support the truly needy.

I don't think I've seen you actually propose a solution. How, specifically, should Detroit handle the situation?

 

[FascismNOW]

"Rights" are a fiction concocted from the diseased minds of community planners and political philosophers. It is a human construct that doesn't exist elsewhere in nature. We should abolish all legal rights and wipe the word from our vocabulary.

If the people of Detroit cannot find water, they should move elsewhere, organize a rebellion, or die off. The latter is my preference.

 

[Care4all]

This lady that the governor appointed for the Detroit Bankruptcy is insane...imo, and btw.

Let me get this straight, paying your bill 2 months late is equivalent to not paying your bill and getting "free stuff"?

And you all are worried that YOUR tax dollars are going to have to be used to pay for this "free stuff" these Black people get, even though this is CLEARLY the city of Detroit's Municipal taxes along with recipients bills paying for THEIR water system and it does not involve YOU at all?

And know that 78% I believe I read, of the citizens in Detroit ARE African American/Black, and it's their tax dollars that would go towards this, IF ANY CITY TAX DOLLARS AT ALL actually ever goes to pay for the water bills AT ALL!

....running 2 months behind on their bills, MEANS JUST THAT....they are running behind on paying them, BUT THEY ARE PAYING THEM,

NOT YOU
NOT the city of DETROIT

THESE PEOPLE ARE PAYING their OWN water bills, PLUS HUGE PENALTIES for them paying late that MORE than recoup's the city's loss on not getting paid on time.

What the city has chosen to do, because of the governor's appointee is a DISGRACE, and IS ONLY BEING DONE, because they want to sell their water responsibilities off to one lucky and friendly to them, Private Company/Corporation.

I CALL BULL CRUD!

You use 12 months of water. You pay for 10 months of water. You're not getting 2 months of water for free?

Not if you are continuing to pay your water bill....you are just behind on the bill, like you would be 2 months behind on an Auto loan, it all catches up in the end, and they are paying the late fees/penalties every single month since they are running behind, so it is not like the gvt doesn't have a good cash cow scam going there... it's not like they are going to move to another apartment and try to skip out on the bill...these ARE homeowners....many of them may even qualify for gvt help paying the water bills the article said, but there are some huge misunderstandings and hoops to jump through and the city office workers in charge of giving this help on water bills is dysfunctional, disorganized and have uninformed workers that have thrown these poor people asking for help in to a conundrum with disinformation...



For the most part, these people ARE NOT welfare people...these are the working poor, who own homes, not living in the projects or renting...

If they were welfare people or citizens on Public Assistance, they would AUTOMATICALLY qualify for the government help for water bills....and there would be no hoops to jump through to get some kind of help....is what the article also said.

They are not skipping 2 months of water bills for every year they have lived in their home....if they lived there for 20 years, these homeowners are behind 2 months out of 240 months of paying their bill.