Israel does not exist

[Hollie]

You are bouncing around again. What happened to step 4?

Who has the authority to cede territory?

I am not bouncing around. I am taking them in order. Step 3 is State creation. It comes first. It ends the conversation for this thread. I addressed step 4 in my follow-up comments.

Who has the authority to cede territory? Only the sovereigns. Which is the government of Palestine (aka Israel).

My bad. I tried to make it simple for you. The Treaty of Lausanne actually states:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”

Were European Jews habitual residents of Turkey in 1923?

Not a single mention of Pal'istan. It's odd, because you cut and paste the blurb above into thread after thread and never manage to make any case for your invented "country of Pal'istan".

Of course that was confirmed by the Mandate itself.
--------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

Of course, you're choosing to carelessly shuffle various elements of two completely different documents.

It really is hilarious. The fraud you were hoping to committ with your cut and paste snippet from the treaty of Lausanne was shown to be a fraud, so, as you have done before, you cut and paste a snippet from a different document.

So, we can agree that the treaty of Lausanne never created your Magical Kingdom of Pally'Land. By the wave of what Magical wand did the Mandate create you Magical Kingdom of Pally'land?


Links?

 

[Shusha]

Yes, the habitual residents of Palestine were to become citizens of Palestine (aka Israel).

Then why are millions of Palestinians not Israelis?

Because they and a number of aggressor states started a f*%ing war against the sovereign government. What would have happened had there been no war?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are bouncing around again. What happened to step 4?

Who has the authority to cede territory?

I am not bouncing around. I am taking them in order. Step 3 is State creation. It comes first. It ends the conversation for this thread. I addressed step 4 in my follow-up comments.

Who has the authority to cede territory? Only the sovereigns. Which is the government of Palestine (aka Israel).

My bad. I tried to make it simple for you. The Treaty of Lausanne actually states:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”

Were European Jews habitual residents of Turkey in 1923?

Not a single mention of Pal'istan. It's odd, because you cut and paste the blurb above into thread after thread and never manage to make any case for your invented "country of Pal'istan".

Of course that was confirmed by the Mandate itself.
--------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

Of course, you're choosing to carelessly shuffle various elements of two completely different documents.

It really is hilarious. The fraud you were hoping to committ with your cut and paste snippet from the treaty of Lausanne was shown to be a fraud, so, as you have done before, you cut and paste a snippet from a different document.

So, we can agree that the treaty of Lausanne never created your Magical Kingdom of Pally'Land. By the wave of what Magical wand did the Mandate create you Magical Kingdom of Pally'land?


Links?

You are just blowing smoke. I was showing continuity. International law states that normal residents get citizenship in the successor state if sovereignty changes. The Treaty of Lausanne echoed that law. Then the Mandate followed with the same principle. Even Resolution 181 states that all Palestinians who normally reside in the territory that becomes the Jewish state will become citizens of that state.

In the middle of all that continuity is the statement that gives Palestinians citizenship in the state of Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Yes, the habitual residents of Palestine were to become citizens of Palestine (aka Israel).

Then why are millions of Palestinians not Israelis?

Because they and a number of aggressor states started a f*%ing war against the sovereign government. What would have happened had there been no war?

Since about 300,000 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the war, we can predict that the ethnic cleansing would have continued.

 

[Hollie]

I am not bouncing around. I am taking them in order. Step 3 is State creation. It comes first. It ends the conversation for this thread. I addressed step 4 in my follow-up comments.

Who has the authority to cede territory? Only the sovereigns. Which is the government of Palestine (aka Israel).

My bad. I tried to make it simple for you. The Treaty of Lausanne actually states:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”

Were European Jews habitual residents of Turkey in 1923?

Not a single mention of Pal'istan. It's odd, because you cut and paste the blurb above into thread after thread and never manage to make any case for your invented "country of Pal'istan".

Of course that was confirmed by the Mandate itself.
--------
The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”​

Of course, you're choosing to carelessly shuffle various elements of two completely different documents.

It really is hilarious. The fraud you were hoping to committ with your cut and paste snippet from the treaty of Lausanne was shown to be a fraud, so, as you have done before, you cut and paste a snippet from a different document.

So, we can agree that the treaty of Lausanne never created your Magical Kingdom of Pally'Land. By the wave of what Magical wand did the Mandate create you Magical Kingdom of Pally'land?


Links?

You are just blowing smoke. I was showing continuity. International law states that normal residents get citizenship in the successor state if sovereignty changes. The Treaty of Lausanne echoed that law. Then the Mandate followed with the same principle. Even Resolution 181 states that all Palestinians who normally reside in the territory that becomes the Jewish state will become citizens of that state.

In the middle of all that continuity is the statement that gives Palestinians citizenship in the state of Palestine.

Well, that's odd you would reference 181 when you have whined repeatedly:

One State

"Resolution 181 was rejected and abandoned by the UN. It was never implemented by the Security Council. It has no relevance."

Why use 181 in your comment when you have repeatedly dismissed it as not relevant?


Otherwise, I always do get a chuckle when you issue your "legal briefs for dummies" which
a) make no sense,
b) rely on gross misrepresentations of historical data you are befuddled with and,
c) rely on argumentation you have earlier poo-poo'd. <----- that's a legal term, BTW

 

[Shusha]

Yes, the habitual residents of Palestine were to become citizens of Palestine (aka Israel).

Then why are millions of Palestinians not Israelis?

Because they and a number of aggressor states started a f*%ing war against the sovereign government. What would have happened had there been no war?

Since about 300,000 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the war, we can predict that the ethnic cleansing would have continued.

You mean like the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people which occurred all throughout the ME? What is your point?!

And how is it relevant to whether or not Israel exists? Did you want to re-frame your claim?

 

[Shusha]

Since about 300,000 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the war, we can predict that the ethnic cleansing would have continued.

Be clear, I don't agree that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing but....sure. Let's go with that.

We could predict that there would be an exchange of population and very likely, as in most places where a population exchange occurred post-era-in-discussion, there would have been a lasting peace.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why use 181 in your comment when you have repeatedly dismissed it as not relevant?

I was just showing the consistency of citizenship and state succession. Even though Resolution 181 did not happen it did reference that citizenship principle.

You are just grasping at straws.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Yes, the habitual residents of Palestine were to become citizens of Palestine (aka Israel).

Then why are millions of Palestinians not Israelis?

Because they and a number of aggressor states started a f*%ing war against the sovereign government. What would have happened had there been no war?

Since about 300,000 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the war, we can predict that the ethnic cleansing would have continued.

You mean like the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people which occurred all throughout the ME? What is your point?!

And how is it relevant to whether or not Israel exists? Did you want to re-frame your claim?

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Yes, the habitual residents of Palestine were to become citizens of Palestine (aka Israel).

Then why are millions of Palestinians not Israelis?

Because they and a number of aggressor states started a f*%ing war against the sovereign government. What would have happened had there been no war?

Since about 300,000 Palestinians became refugees before the start of the war, we can predict that the ethnic cleansing would have continued.

You mean like the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people which occurred all throughout the ME? What is your point?!

And how is it relevant to whether or not Israel exists? Did you want to re-frame your claim?

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

Israel does NOT occupy Palestine.

Israel IS Palestine. It always has been, since the Romans changed the name of Judea to Filistina.

The British simply reused the insulting name for the Mandate to continue to insult the Jewish People as they had no intention to allow the Jews to become sovereign over their ancient homeland.

Israel is Palestine. (The Region of Palestine, the Mandate for Palestine)

 

[P F Tinmore]

Be clear, I don't agree that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing but....sure. Let's go with that.

Ethnic cleansing was necessary. The Zionists wanted a Jewish majority state when they were only 1/3 of the population. There is only one remedy for that problem. They had to get rid of a lot of the wrong kind of people.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Be clear, I don't agree that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing but....sure. Let's go with that.

Ethnic cleansing was necessary. The Zionists wanted a Jewish majority state when they were only 1/3 of the population. There is only one remedy for that problem. They had to get rid of a lot of the wrong kind of people.

You mean the way the Arabs got rid of Jews in their Jewish homes and cities in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1939 and in 1948?

That way?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Be clear, I don't agree that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing but....sure. Let's go with that.

Ethnic cleansing was necessary. The Zionists wanted a Jewish majority state when they were only 1/3 of the population. There is only one remedy for that problem. They had to get rid of a lot of the wrong kind of people.

Oh, I forgot.

The way the Hashemites got rid of the "wrong kind of people" in TranJordan in 1925 from the 77% of the Mandate for Palestine they were given......just like that !

 

[Shusha]

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

The "Israeli talking point" is actually that Palestine as a State inhabited by and governed by only Arabs has never existed. Palestine most certainly exists as a State. Its a Jewish State. With a Jewish government. As necessitated by the treaties involved. It has non-Jewish, Arab citizens. Whose civil rights have never been denied in law, despite both internal hostility and external unlawful aggression. As necessitated by the treaties involved.

The "correct groundwork" is that Palestine is the State for the Jewish people based on their historical and ancestral connection to that territory. It exists. It has the RIGHT to exist.



The suggestion that the Arabs in the area should have more land, or more sovereignty, or (what they are really asking for) EXCLUSIVE sovereignty are different discussions. But I'd be glad to have them with you. If you are willing to accept EQUAL rights for the Jewish people.

 

[Hollie]

Why use 181 in your comment when you have repeatedly dismissed it as not relevant?

I was just showing the consistency of citizenship and state succession. Even though Resolution 181 did not happen it did reference that citizenship principle.

You are just grasping at straws.

How were you showing consistency of citizenship when you failed to show anything consistent and more to the point, you tried to bolster your attempt at argument with a UN resolution you have consistently derided as "irrelevant".

 

[Shusha]

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

And also, in point of fact, this whole thing came up because you said it was just hunky dorey for Gaza to lob rockets at Israeli citizens (read: Jews) because Israel doesn't exist.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The "Israeli talking point" is actually that Palestine as a State inhabited by and governed by only Arabs has never existed.

The Palestinians have the right to govern themselves. The fact that illegal external interference has violated that right does not negate that right.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why use 181 in your comment when you have repeatedly dismissed it as not relevant?

I was just showing the consistency of citizenship and state succession. Even though Resolution 181 did not happen it did reference that citizenship principle.

You are just grasping at straws.

How were you showing consistency of citizenship when you failed to show anything consistent and more to the point, you tried to bolster your attempt at argument with a UN resolution you have consistently derided as "irrelevant".

How could you miss that?

 

[Shusha]

Ethnic cleansing was necessary. The Zionists wanted a Jewish majority state when they were only 1/3 of the population. There is only one remedy for that problem. They had to get rid of a lot of the wrong kind of people.

Its a vexing problem wherever an ethnic minority wants to have self-determination. The Arab Palestinians use the same concept when demanding the end to the settlements. What do you suggest is the solution? Perhaps worthy of another thread?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

And also, in point of fact, this whole thing came up because you said it was just hunky dorey for Gaza to lob rockets at Israeli citizens (read: Jews) because Israel doesn't exist.

That is correct except you put in that Jew thing. I never said that.