Israel does not exist

[Indeependent]

And also, in point of fact, this whole thing came up because you said it was just hunky dorey for Gaza to lob rockets at Israeli citizens (read: Jews) because Israel doesn't exist.

That is correct except you put in that Jew thing. I never said that.

Good to know that you own up to supporting the killing of innocent civilians. Wait....that's NOT good, is it?

Are illegal settlers living on stolen land "innocent civilians?"

Can you prove who was illegal?
It's kind of difficult since anybody living there was called a Palestinian.
I presume you read that fact.

Can you prove who was illegal?

I'm working on that.

How are you working on that?
You have spent the last few years here claiming you had everything nailed down.
Now I call you on the carpet and am proving what a fool you are.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

And also, in point of fact, this whole thing came up because you said it was just hunky dorey for Gaza to lob rockets at Israeli citizens (read: Jews) because Israel doesn't exist.

That is correct except you put in that Jew thing. I never said that.

But this whole conflict is about the JEW THING. Don't be naive.

Now you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Give me a break. Why are the Gazans still fighting? If not because of the Jew thing.

The Jew thing is irrelevant. It would be no different if the occupation was Hindu.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians have the right to govern themselves. The fact that illegal external interference has violated that right does not negate that right.

Both the JEWISH Palestinians and the ARAB Palestinians have the right to govern themselves. We agree on the concept.

You are the one denying the right of Jewish people from governing themselves.

Can you prove your points?

Why would anybody try when all you do is go around in circles?

Indeed, staying on point with all this deflection is a problem.

No deflection on my part.
You are, in your own way, insulting all the experts who put so much work into this Treaty by trivializing it into your own personal vendetta.
I suggest you stay on point by respecting the complexity of this Treaty because it's the only weapon you think you have in your arsenal.

What did I post that was incorrect?

 

[Shusha]

The Israeli talking point is that Israel does not occupy Palestine because Palestine never existed. I am just correcting that misinformation. That is just laying the correct groundwork.

And also, in point of fact, this whole thing came up because you said it was just hunky dorey for Gaza to lob rockets at Israeli citizens (read: Jews) because Israel doesn't exist.

That is correct except you put in that Jew thing. I never said that.

Good to know that you own up to supporting the killing of innocent civilians. Wait....that's NOT good, is it?

Are illegal settlers living on stolen land "innocent civilians?"

They are in no way illegal settlers. They are citizens of the sovereign.

 

[Shusha]

The Jew thing is irrelevant. It would be no different if the occupation was Hindu.

Well. Yes and no.

The relevancy is the demand by Arab Muslims for ethnic homogeneity or exclusive sovereignty, even on land which has another claimant for rights to ancestral and historical land.

 

[Indeependent]

Both the JEWISH Palestinians and the ARAB Palestinians have the right to govern themselves. We agree on the concept.

You are the one denying the right of Jewish people from governing themselves.

Can you prove your points?

Why would anybody try when all you do is go around in circles?

Indeed, staying on point with all this deflection is a problem.

No deflection on my part.
You are, in your own way, insulting all the experts who put so much work into this Treaty by trivializing it into your own personal vendetta.
I suggest you stay on point by respecting the complexity of this Treaty because it's the only weapon you think you have in your arsenal.

What did I post that was incorrect?

Read the Treaty and you will realize (actually, you won't realize anything because you're not too good at inferring one thing from another) how much you are exaggerating the emphasis on the British Mandate, which is only referred to in the Treaty.
In fact, the major emphasis is on the borders of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Trans-Jordan, and not on Palestine itself.
The British, in fact, took off in 1948, absconding any responsibiltiy they had in the Treaty which leaves you having to blame
BRITAIN
for any undoing that occurred to the Arabs of Palestine once the 5 Arab armies prepared to attack Palestine.

Of course, you can't read anything but your own version of history so I presume you will click the smile icon.

What really makes me laugh you is that you often refer to Wikipedia as Hasbara, but the only website that even mentions the British Mandate for simplicity's sake is Wikipedia.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jew thing is irrelevant. It would be no different if the occupation was Hindu.

Well. Yes and no.

The relevancy is the demand by Arab Muslims for ethnic homogeneity or exclusive sovereignty, even on land which has another claimant for rights to ancestral and historical land.

Palestine has always been a multi religious place. The vast majority of the people have no issue with that.

 

[Hollie]

The Jew thing is irrelevant. It would be no different if the occupation was Hindu.

Well. Yes and no.

The relevancy is the demand by Arab Muslims for ethnic homogeneity or exclusive sovereignty, even on land which has another claimant for rights to ancestral and historical land.

Palestine has always been a multi religious place. The vast majority of the people have no issue with that.

So, tell us about the multi-religious place that is Gaza'istan or Fatah'istan. Tell us how it is that your role as propaganda minister and your pronouncements on behalf of "the vast majority of the people" conflicts with the reality on the ground in Gaza, the West Bank, and elsewhere across the Islamist Middle East where minority religions are under siege.

 

[Shusha]

Palestine has always been a multi religious place. The vast majority of the people have no issue with that.

"Palestine" has most certainly NOT always been a multi-religious place. It was a First Nations place. That other religions moved in and usurped both territory and history does NOT make it a multi-religious place. It only makes it a place where others have invaded and colonized.

 

[Shusha]

Palestine has always been a multi religious place. The vast majority of the people have no issue with that.

The vast majority of people have no issue with multi-religions?! Really?! Muslims have no issue with multi-religions?! In holy sites like the Temple Mount?!

Bull. Emphasis. Shit.

Then why the Days of Rage over Jews and their "filthy feet" in "YOUR" holy place?! Why all the BS about preventing Jewish prayer in our most holy place? Why this summer's crap about "Don't you DARE put security on OUR holy site"?

 

[montelatici]

Palestine has always been a multi religious place. The vast majority of the people have no issue with that.

"Palestine" has most certainly NOT always been a multi-religious place. It was a First Nations place. That other religions moved in and usurped both territory and history does NOT make it a multi-religious place. It only makes it a place where others have invaded and colonized.

Palestine was always a multi-religion area from the earliest days. When the Hebrews invaded there were already several religions practiced/Gods worshipped in the area. Baal, Astarte and other Gods were worshipped and continued to be worshipped during and after a relatively short Hebrew period. Subsequently, with Assyrian and Babylonian rule, additional religions were practiced where Gods like An and Hamash were added to the multi-religious area. With the Romans, Roman Gods began to be worshipped by the populace, and of course, Christianity joined the religious mix. In time most of the people of the area converted to Islam, and that's where we are today.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Be clear, I don't agree that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing but....sure. Let's go with that.

Ethnic cleansing was necessary. The Zionists wanted a Jewish majority state when they were only 1/3 of the population. There is only one remedy for that problem. They had to get rid of a lot of the wrong kind of people.

You mean the way the Arabs got rid of Jews in their Jewish homes and cities in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1939 and in 1948?

That way?

Notice that all of those came after the start of the Zionist settler colonial project.

 

[Hollie]

Be clear, I don't agree that Israel had a policy of ethnic cleansing but....sure. Let's go with that.

Ethnic cleansing was necessary. The Zionists wanted a Jewish majority state when they were only 1/3 of the population. There is only one remedy for that problem. They had to get rid of a lot of the wrong kind of people.

You mean the way the Arabs got rid of Jews in their Jewish homes and cities in 1920, 1921, 1929, 1936 to 1939 and in 1948?

That way?

Notice that all of those came after the start of the Zionist settler colonial project.

Notice you don't understand history.

Notice that Arab-Moslem settler colonial waqf project demanded exclusive rights and privileges to the geographic area of Pal'istan.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Instead, I would deflect the conversation to government representation, self-determination for only one people, and even apartheid.

OK, if you want to go there.

Israel is a foreign government imposed on Palestine by military force. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

A government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. The Israeli government was established with the virtual unanimous opposition of the native population.

 

[Hollie]

Instead, I would deflect the conversation to government representation, self-determination for only one people, and even apartheid.

OK, if you want to go there.

Israel is a foreign government imposed on Palestine by military force. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

A government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. The Israeli government was established with the virtual unanimous opposition of the native population.

Well that's odd because Jews aquired large tracts of land from absentee land owners in Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Not exactly what one would describe as a "native population". What timeline did you use to define the Islamic settler colonial project, the Turk invasion and the European Christian Crusaders as magically transforming into the.... wait for it..... here it comes....the indigenous, native Arab population™

 

[Hollie]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

The word Palestine is very confusing. It was meant to confuse.
The British, not anyone else, chose to name that specific Mandate "Palestine". (Palestine (the Roman version of it) is what the Romans renamed Judea in 135 CE in order to humiliate the Jews and make them forget their homeland after they were defeated)

But this is what the Mandate for Palestine was for, and the people it was supposed to help create a State/country :

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and......

Art 2. The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

--------------
The Mandate for Palestine was always meant to be the recreation of the Nation of the Jewish People. The Jews would be sovereign over the land (all 100 % of it, including TransJordan) with all other people living under Jewish sovereignty. ( As they still do in Israel)

This is something many here cannot recognize much less allow.

During the Mandate, all of those living in the region called Palestine became known as Palestinians, because of the name given to the mandate, and not because there ever had been a people called Palestinians in the region. There were businesses and Passports with the name of Palestine, because the British named the mandate so.

It was up to the Jewish people to name their Nation, just as the Iraqis chose Iraq (the indigenous may have wanted to keep Mesopotamia, who knows), once they became recognized as a country and declared Independence.

When Israel declared Independence in May 1948, their area of Palestine, after a second time rejected partition by the Arabs, became known as Israel. The State of Israel.

Also think about it for a minute, what right had Britain to decide to take land from the people living on the land to give it to people living on another continent? Does that make any sense?

Does your sweaty, chest-heaving indignation also apply to the European Christian Crusaders?

 

[Shusha]

Instead, I would deflect the conversation to government representation, self-determination for only one people, and even apartheid.

OK, if you want to go there.

Israel is a foreign government imposed on Palestine by military force. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

A government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. The Israeli government was established with the virtual unanimous opposition of the native population.

Israel is the government of the indigenous Jewish people in their historical and ancestral homeland. It was not created by military force, but by the same treaties which established the other nations that became independent at the same time. It was created, expressly, for the purpose of reconstituting the Jewish nation, as entrenched in the treaties and other legal instruments at the time. There is nothing "foreign" about it. That is a myth which was created to delegitimize Jewish rights.

It was compelled to use force only to defend itself from external aggressors who illegally entered Palestinian territory.



None of these things make a ruling government invalid nor poofs a state out of existence.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Instead, I would deflect the conversation to government representation, self-determination for only one people, and even apartheid.

OK, if you want to go there.

Israel is a foreign government imposed on Palestine by military force. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers.

A government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed. The Israeli government was established with the virtual unanimous opposition of the native population.

Israel is the government of the indigenous Jewish people in their historical and ancestral homeland. It was not created by military force, but by the same treaties which established the other nations that became independent at the same time. It was created, expressly, for the purpose of reconstituting the Jewish nation, as entrenched in the treaties and other legal instruments at the time. There is nothing "foreign" about it. That is a myth which was created to delegitimize Jewish rights.

It was compelled to use force only to defend itself from external aggressors who illegally entered Palestinian territory.



None of these things make a ruling government invalid nor poofs a state out of existence.

Of course you did not refute anything in my post.

 

[Shusha]

Of course you did not refute anything in my post.

Of course you do your usual bail when you don't like my answers.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course you did not refute anything in my post.

Of course you do your usual bail when you don't like my answers.

Blowing smoke is not answer.