Israel does not exist

[Humanity]

Argueing over facts simply doesn't work...

Israel exists, end of story!

Of course it does.

But I think it is also important to examine the context of WHY people make assertions so in contrary to facts. I mean, why would people DO that?

In this case, it is a legal fiction in order to excuse and justify the murder of Jews. It is a common thread that lurks beneath the surface of what appears to be a legal argument. And it exists in members of this board, as well as in the Arab Palestinian community. It is a very dangerous idea and one that needs to be recognized and dealt with if we ever want to solve this conflict.

I could probably make a few guesses as to why people think this... Though most guesses would revolve around questioning their sanity!

In a similar vein to those who question the existence of Palestine!

Seems pointless and futile!

How is questioning the existence of a country named Palestine in the same vein as questioning the existence of a country named Israel?

Israel was once a Nation. On the land where it stands now.

When was there ever a country, not talking about a region, called Palestine, governed by people called Palestinians?

When have the Arabs, who are invaders from 1400 years ago into the area, ever called any one of their clans Palestinians, or any one of their groups, for that matter?

So, let me ask you:

Has a country called Palestine ever existed on the disputed land?
Does a country/state called Palestine exist today?
What were or are its borders? Its capital, its currency?
Does it have an infrastructure not dependent of all the other countries which surround it?


The Jewish people have agreed to partition the Mandate for Palestine with the Arabs living on the land.
77 % of that land was taken without the Jews being even asked about it, to the Hashemites (who are not Palestinians) in 1922.
The Jews agreed to partition the land in 1937 and in 1947.

2000 was about negotiating and partitioning and coming to an end to the conflict. And so was 2008. The Jews accepted what was offered. What did the Arabs/Palestinians do during those attempts to end the conflict and create a Palestine State?

Which side says that the other does not exist as a country and/or has no right to exist, and wants to put an end to its existence by any means necessary?

Which side has it written in their charters that their goal is to destroy a country which already exists?

Which side has created an organization meant to help destroy an existing country by any means possible?
----------

There are so many more questions, but let stay with the ones above.

We are not against a Palestinian State although Jordan is already one, and Gaza should have become one after 2005.

We are for peaceful co-existance as it is been happening with Jordan, Egypt, and now Saudi Arabia and many other Arab countries.

What does it take for the Palestinian leadership to say enough, we will negotiate a final treaty just as Egypt and Jordan have done and put an end to all the waste of money and misery brought by their denial of the State Israel?

Look at all Jordan and Egypt and other Arab countries get by collaborating, negotiating, doing business with Israel.


Why continue to say that Israel does not exist?

Tut... Did I mention anything about Palestine being a "country"?

 

[Sixties Fan]

OK, so how did Palestine become Israel? Where did that authority come from?

From the same authority that created Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. She just changed her name. You can call her Palestine if it makes you feel better.

Not only changed names but changed population and the right for that original population to create its own government.

You are saying that Israel changed the name from Palestine to Israel.

So did the Hashemite clan which changed the name from Palestine (Transjordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine in 1920) to Jordan after they tried to annex Judea and Samaria to their new country after 1948).

Why do you make such a fuss over changes of names?

Mesopotamia became Iraq. Is that also invalid?

The original population, you like it or not, is the Jewish population.
And they are the ones who were attacked and expelled from 1920 until 1948 from their homes and cities all over the Mandate.

And let us not forget how the indigenous Jewish population was removed from the area known as TransJordan by the Hashemite clan after they were granted that land by the British in 1925.

You remember only what you wish to remember, no matter how factual it is - or not.

The Arabs, whom you call the original population, chose not to share the land with the Jewish people on Jewish ancient homeland.

The Jews were the ones with the right to be upset and do everything to protect themselves from the endless riots, murders, rapes and expulsions they were forced to endure from 1920 until the end of the war of Independence in 1949.

Start accepting one fact at a time.

Jewish Homeland

Jewish rights to live anywhere in the Mandate.

That right taken away by the British who gave 77% to the Hashemites, who expelled all the Jews from that vast area.

Newly founded Arab countries decided to invade Israel after it declared Independence. The Arabs lost. And continue to lose attempting to take over the only 20% of sovereign Jewish State which has existed since 1948.

The Arabs do not acknowledge the Jews as being people, a people, or any kind of people.....period. It is due to their Muslim culture.

What are you going to do?

Acknowledge that Jews are people/humans with the right to sovereignty over any part of their ancient homeland, or are you going to continue to deny that Jews possibly even exist, or are the real Jews, the indigenous people of that land?

You and others do not have that many choices to make.

Choosing the facts is what is preferred at any time and place.

Choosing the facts is what will put an end to this conflict/war against the Jews once all Muslim and Christian leaders put an end to their endless incitement and falsehoods against Israel and the Jewish people.

What is it going to be?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore

You keep trying to imply that there was some sort of magical change that occurred because "Palestine" is associated with Jews. Treaties don't lose their validity because they are signed by Jews. Governments don't lose their validity because they are majority Jewish. States don't stop being states because of Jews. States aren't prevented from becoming states because of Jews. "Palestine" is still Palestine.

You are bouncing around confusing the timeline for the procedures.

 

[Indeependent]

P F Tinmore

You keep trying to imply that there was some sort of magical change that occurred because "Palestine" is associated with Jews. Treaties don't lose their validity because they are signed by Jews. Governments don't lose their validity because they are majority Jewish. States don't stop being states because of Jews. States aren't prevented from becoming states because of Jews. "Palestine" is still Palestine.

You are bouncing around confusing the timeline for the procedures.

You are because the web sites that discuss the Treaty you so love discuss all of this and you simply ignore what doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Humanity]

In a similar vein to those who question the existence of Palestine!

No. Its not. And I'll tell you why. The context of the discussion is the
Hi

I think that there is some missing information here.

Nigel and me have been monitoring various events types since mid April, about 100+ events. We have also given mini lessons to clients about how to use PMXD. Along with various updates and edits to event in Webcast Elite, before and doing an event.

We have had a two hours training session on Webcast Elite given by Denis Walker, the same type that he gives to new clients.

We also had a hours Webcast Management Training with Tim Weathers.

Along with fantastic support and mentoring by Tatiana.

We do not have assess to Event Manger and need training lessons on it. We have assess to SalesForce, but need training on how to use it.

Denis gave is a very quick intro to P10 which we are missing access too and training on it.

I have managed to do about 16 lessons of the original learning assignment. Which was send to us at the end of July. This is where we are running into a wall with not having access to Event Manager or the VPN to access the files that is needed to study for the lessons.

Thanks
Henrik and Nigel.
.

Those arguing that Palestine doesn't exist (while equally foolish since it HAS existed since the Oslo Accords, though it is not yet fully a State), do not argue it in the context of it being legally or morally permissible to kill Arabs.

You see... There is a slight moving of goal posts here...

I did not read anything about the

In a similar vein to those who question the existence of Palestine!

No. Its not. And I'll tell you why. The context of the discussion is the legal permissibility to kill Jews.

Those arguing that Palestine doesn't exist (while equally foolish since it HAS existed since the Oslo Accords, though it is not yet fully a State), do not argue it in the context of it being legally or morally permissible to kill Arabs.

Of course, it is NOT "legal permissibility to kill Jews"....

Of course Israel exists

Of course Palestine exists

You'll be telling me next that the earth is flat! ;-)

 

[Shusha]

P F Tinmore

You keep trying to imply that there was some sort of magical change that occurred because "Palestine" is associated with Jews. Treaties don't lose their validity because they are signed by Jews. Governments don't lose their validity because they are majority Jewish. States don't stop being states because of Jews. States aren't prevented from becoming states because of Jews. "Palestine" is still Palestine.

You are bouncing around confusing the timeline for the procedures.

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them. (Well, Oslo, but let's leave that alone for the purposes of this thread). We agree.

That defined territory has a permanent population. It has a government. It has relations with other States. This is the criteria for existence as a State. So, why would you not consider it a State?!

 

[Shusha]

Of course, it is NOT "legal permissibility to kill Jews"....

Which is why I think it is important for the more reasonable pro-Palestine posters here to stand up against those sorts of claims and I thank you for it.

 

[montelatici]

OK, so how did Palestine become Israel? Where did that authority come from?

From the same authority that created Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. She just changed her name. You can call her Palestine if it makes you feel better.

Not only changed names but changed population and the right for that original population to create its own government.

You are saying that Israel changed the name from Palestine to Israel.

So did the Hashemite clan which changed the name from Palestine (Transjordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine in 1920) to Jordan after they tried to annex Judea and Samaria to their new country after 1948).

Why do you make such a fuss over changes of names?

Mesopotamia became Iraq. Is that also invalid?

The original population, you like it or not, is the Jewish population.
And they are the ones who were attacked and expelled from 1920 until 1948 from their homes and cities all over the Mandate.

And let us not forget how the indigenous Jewish population was removed from the area known as TransJordan by the Hashemite clan after they were granted that land by the British in 1925.

You remember only what you wish to remember, no matter how factual it is - or not.

The Arabs, whom you call the original population, chose not to share the land with the Jewish people on Jewish ancient homeland.

The Jews were the ones with the right to be upset and do everything to protect themselves from the endless riots, murders, rapes and expulsions they were forced to endure from 1920 until the end of the war of Independence in 1949.

Start accepting one fact at a time.

Jewish Homeland

Jewish rights to live anywhere in the Mandate.

That right taken away by the British who gave 77% to the Hashemites, who expelled all the Jews from that vast area.

Newly founded Arab countries decided to invade Israel after it declared Independence. The Arabs lost. And continue to lose attempting to take over the only 20% of sovereign Jewish State which has existed since 1948.

The Arabs do not acknowledge the Jews as being people, a people, or any kind of people.....period. It is due to their Muslim culture.

What are you going to do?

Acknowledge that Jews are people/humans with the right to sovereignty over any part of their ancient homeland, or are you going to continue to deny that Jews possibly even exist, or are the real Jews, the indigenous people of that land?

You and others do not have that many choices to make.

Choosing the facts is what is preferred at any time and place.

Choosing the facts is what will put an end to this conflict/war against the Jews once all Muslim and Christian leaders put an end to their endless incitement and falsehoods against Israel and the Jewish people.

What is it going to be?

You are an idiot. Trans-Jordan was never a part of Palestine. Adding the former province of the Arab Kingdom of Syria to the Mandate did not magically make the territory part of Palestine. The court of the Arab Kingdom of Syria escaped to the province after the French captured the capital of the kingdom, Damascus and the Hashemites looked to Britain for protection.

The European Jews had never seen Palestine nor had their European ancestors. The land is the homeland of the indigenous people that lived there before the British invasion and the resettlement of Europeans to the territory by the British. That the native and indigenous people rejected Judaism and adopted Christianity and later most of them Islam as their religion did not change their ancestry.

 

[Hollie]

OK, so how did Palestine become Israel? Where did that authority come from?

From the same authority that created Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. She just changed her name. You can call her Palestine if it makes you feel better.

Not only changed names but changed population and the right for that original population to create its own government.

You are saying that Israel changed the name from Palestine to Israel.

So did the Hashemite clan which changed the name from Palestine (Transjordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine in 1920) to Jordan after they tried to annex Judea and Samaria to their new country after 1948).

Why do you make such a fuss over changes of names?

Mesopotamia became Iraq. Is that also invalid?

The original population, you like it or not, is the Jewish population.
And they are the ones who were attacked and expelled from 1920 until 1948 from their homes and cities all over the Mandate.

And let us not forget how the indigenous Jewish population was removed from the area known as TransJordan by the Hashemite clan after they were granted that land by the British in 1925.

You remember only what you wish to remember, no matter how factual it is - or not.

The Arabs, whom you call the original population, chose not to share the land with the Jewish people on Jewish ancient homeland.

The Jews were the ones with the right to be upset and do everything to protect themselves from the endless riots, murders, rapes and expulsions they were forced to endure from 1920 until the end of the war of Independence in 1949.

Start accepting one fact at a time.

Jewish Homeland

Jewish rights to live anywhere in the Mandate.

That right taken away by the British who gave 77% to the Hashemites, who expelled all the Jews from that vast area.

Newly founded Arab countries decided to invade Israel after it declared Independence. The Arabs lost. And continue to lose attempting to take over the only 20% of sovereign Jewish State which has existed since 1948.

The Arabs do not acknowledge the Jews as being people, a people, or any kind of people.....period. It is due to their Muslim culture.

What are you going to do?

Acknowledge that Jews are people/humans with the right to sovereignty over any part of their ancient homeland, or are you going to continue to deny that Jews possibly even exist, or are the real Jews, the indigenous people of that land?

You and others do not have that many choices to make.

Choosing the facts is what is preferred at any time and place.

Choosing the facts is what will put an end to this conflict/war against the Jews once all Muslim and Christian leaders put an end to their endless incitement and falsehoods against Israel and the Jewish people.

What is it going to be?

You are an idiot. Trans-Jordan was never a part of Palestine. Adding the former province of the Arab Kingdom of Syria to the Mandate did not magically make the territory part of Palestine. The court of the Arab Kingdom of Syria escaped to the province after the French captured the capital of the kingdom, Damascus and the Hashemites looked to Britain for protection.

The European Jews had never seen Palestine nor had their European ancestors. The land is the homeland of the indigenous people that lived there before the British invasion and the resettlement of Europeans to the territory by the British. That the native and indigenous people rejected Judaism and adopted Christianity and later most of them Islam as their religion did not change their ancestry.

It's actually comical to suggest that waves of conquest by Arab-Moslem invaders, Turk colonizers and European Christian Crusaders magically became native and indigenous people.

 

[Humanity]

Of course, it is NOT "legal permissibility to kill Jews"....

Which is why I think it is important for the more reasonable pro-Palestine posters here to stand up against those sorts of claims and I thank you for it.

Shusha, Israel exists as does Palestine... No, they may not carry the same 'classification' but they DO exist!

And no one has the right to kill ANYONE, period, let alone based on a lie!

 

[Humanity]

OK, so how did Palestine become Israel? Where did that authority come from?

From the same authority that created Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. She just changed her name. You can call her Palestine if it makes you feel better.

Not only changed names but changed population and the right for that original population to create its own government.

You are saying that Israel changed the name from Palestine to Israel.

So did the Hashemite clan which changed the name from Palestine (Transjordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine in 1920) to Jordan after they tried to annex Judea and Samaria to their new country after 1948).

Why do you make such a fuss over changes of names?

Mesopotamia became Iraq. Is that also invalid?

The original population, you like it or not, is the Jewish population.
And they are the ones who were attacked and expelled from 1920 until 1948 from their homes and cities all over the Mandate.

And let us not forget how the indigenous Jewish population was removed from the area known as TransJordan by the Hashemite clan after they were granted that land by the British in 1925.

You remember only what you wish to remember, no matter how factual it is - or not.

The Arabs, whom you call the original population, chose not to share the land with the Jewish people on Jewish ancient homeland.

The Jews were the ones with the right to be upset and do everything to protect themselves from the endless riots, murders, rapes and expulsions they were forced to endure from 1920 until the end of the war of Independence in 1949.

Start accepting one fact at a time.

Jewish Homeland

Jewish rights to live anywhere in the Mandate.

That right taken away by the British who gave 77% to the Hashemites, who expelled all the Jews from that vast area.

Newly founded Arab countries decided to invade Israel after it declared Independence. The Arabs lost. And continue to lose attempting to take over the only 20% of sovereign Jewish State which has existed since 1948.

The Arabs do not acknowledge the Jews as being people, a people, or any kind of people.....period. It is due to their Muslim culture.

What are you going to do?

Acknowledge that Jews are people/humans with the right to sovereignty over any part of their ancient homeland, or are you going to continue to deny that Jews possibly even exist, or are the real Jews, the indigenous people of that land?

You and others do not have that many choices to make.

Choosing the facts is what is preferred at any time and place.

Choosing the facts is what will put an end to this conflict/war against the Jews once all Muslim and Christian leaders put an end to their endless incitement and falsehoods against Israel and the Jewish people.

What is it going to be?

You are an idiot. Trans-Jordan was never a part of Palestine. Adding the former province of the Arab Kingdom of Syria to the Mandate did not magically make the territory part of Palestine. The court of the Arab Kingdom of Syria escaped to the province after the French captured the capital of the kingdom, Damascus and the Hashemites looked to Britain for protection.

The European Jews had never seen Palestine nor had their European ancestors. The land is the homeland of the indigenous people that lived there before the British invasion and the resettlement of Europeans to the territory by the British. That the native and indigenous people rejected Judaism and adopted Christianity and later most of them Islam as their religion did not change their ancestry.

It's actually comical to suggest that waves of conquest by Arab-Moslem invaders, Turk colonizers and European Christian Crusaders magically became native and indigenous people.

Did he suggest that? "waves of conquest" became indigenous?

The invaders/colonizers/crusaders arrived in a land that did actually have indigenous people BEFORE they invaded/colonized/crusaded....

Banging about who was where first is pretty boring and pointless....

The situation is what it is... Focusing on trying to find solutions surely makes more sense than bickering about the past!

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

 

[montelatici]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

Very concise and to the point PF. I would add that Britain's active armed resistance to the Palestinian's (Muslim and Christian native people) struggle for self determination when they represented 90 plus percent of the population was the original sin, as eventually admitted by the British, in UN Resolution A/364.

"176. With regard to the principle of self-determination, although international recognition was extended to this principle at the end of the First World War and it was adhered to with regard to the other Arab territories, at the time of the creation of the "A" Mandates, it was not applied to Palestine, obviously because of the intention to make possible the creation of the Jewish National Home there. Actually, it may well be said that the Jewish National Home and the sui generis Mandate for Palestine run counter to that principle.

 

[Sixties Fan]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

The word Palestine is very confusing. It was meant to confuse.
The British, not anyone else, chose to name that specific Mandate "Palestine". (Palestine (the Roman version of it) is what the Romans renamed Judea in 135 CE in order to humiliate the Jews and make them forget their homeland after they were defeated)

But this is what the Mandate for Palestine was for, and the people it was supposed to help create a State/country :

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and......

Art 2. The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

--------------
The Mandate for Palestine was always meant to be the recreation of the Nation of the Jewish People. The Jews would be sovereign over the land (all 100 % of it, including TransJordan) with all other people living under Jewish sovereignty. ( As they still do in Israel)

This is something many here cannot recognize much less allow.

During the Mandate, all of those living in the region called Palestine became known as Palestinians, because of the name given to the mandate, and not because there ever had been a people called Palestinians in the region. There were businesses and Passports with the name of Palestine, because the British named the mandate so.

It was up to the Jewish people to name their Nation, just as the Iraqis chose Iraq (the indigenous may have wanted to keep Mesopotamia, who knows), once they became recognized as a country and declared Independence.

When Israel declared Independence in May 1948, their area of Palestine, after a second time rejected partition by the Arabs, became known as Israel. The State of Israel.

 

[Hollie]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

Very concise and to the point PF. I would add that Britain's active armed resistance to the Palestinian's (Muslim and Christian native people) struggle for self determination when they represented 90 plus percent of the population was the original sin, as eventually admitted by the British, in UN Resolution A/364.

"176. With regard to the principle of self-determination, although international recognition was extended to this principle at the end of the First World War and it was adhered to with regard to the other Arab territories, at the time of the creation of the "A" Mandates, it was not applied to Palestine, obviously because of the intention to make possible the creation of the Jewish National Home there. Actually, it may well be said that the Jewish National Home and the sui generis Mandate for Palestine run counter to that principle.

You negligently avoided posting what immediately followed:

177. As to the claim that the Palestine Mandate violates Article 22 of the Covenant because the community of Palestine has not been recognized as an independent nation and because the mandatory was given full powers of legislation and administration, it has been rightly pointed out by the Peel Commission:

" (a) That the provisional recognition of certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire as independent nations is permissible; the words are can be provisionally recognized, not 'will' or 'shall';

" (b) That the penultimate paragraph of Article 22 prescribes that the degree of authority to be exercised by the mandatory shall be defined, at need, by the Council of the League;

" (c) That the acceptance by the Allied Powers and the United States of the policy of the Ball-four Declaration made it clear from the beginning that Palestine would have been treated differently from Syria and Iraq, and that this difference of treatment was confirmed by the Supreme Council in the Treaty of Sevres and by the Council of the League in sanctioning the Mandate."154/

 

[montelatici]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

The word Palestine is very confusing. It was meant to confuse.
The British, not anyone else, chose to name that specific Mandate "Palestine". (Palestine (the Roman version of it) is what the Romans renamed Judea in 135 CE in order to humiliate the Jews and make them forget their homeland after they were defeated)

But this is what the Mandate for Palestine was for, and the people it was supposed to help create a State/country :

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and......

Art 2. The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

--------------
The Mandate for Palestine was always meant to be the recreation of the Nation of the Jewish People. The Jews would be sovereign over the land (all 100 % of it, including TransJordan) with all other people living under Jewish sovereignty. ( As they still do in Israel)

This is something many here cannot recognize much less allow.

During the Mandate, all of those living in the region called Palestine became known as Palestinians, because of the name given to the mandate, and not because there ever had been a people called Palestinians in the region. There were businesses and Passports with the name of Palestine, because the British named the mandate so.

It was up to the Jewish people to name their Nation, just as the Iraqis chose Iraq (the indigenous may have wanted to keep Mesopotamia, who knows), once they became recognized as a country and declared Independence.

When Israel declared Independence in May 1948, their area of Palestine, after a second time rejected partition by the Arabs, became known as Israel. The State of Israel.

The people of the region were called Palestinians by Herodutus in 400 BC. They were called Palestinians when they were Christians in 400 AD as confirmed by the "the palstinian martyrs" work by Eusebius of Caesarea. Give it up. You are a liar.

 

[Indeependent]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

Apparently, the Treaty is far more complex (it is) than your simple Romper Room explanation as nobody brought up the Treaty in after the 1948 war.
And yes, the Treaty goes on for many pages and you have no expertise on the Treaty itself or on Treaties in general.

 

[Indeependent]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

Very concise and to the point PF. I would add that Britain's active armed resistance to the Palestinian's (Muslim and Christian native people) struggle for self determination when they represented 90 plus percent of the population was the original sin, as eventually admitted by the British, in UN Resolution A/364.

"176. With regard to the principle of self-determination, although international recognition was extended to this principle at the end of the First World War and it was adhered to with regard to the other Arab territories, at the time of the creation of the "A" Mandates, it was not applied to Palestine, obviously because of the intention to make possible the creation of the Jewish National Home there. Actually, it may well be said that the Jewish National Home and the sui generis Mandate for Palestine run counter to that principle.

Too concise for a very lengthy and complex document.

 

[montelatici]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

The word Palestine is very confusing. It was meant to confuse.
The British, not anyone else, chose to name that specific Mandate "Palestine". (Palestine (the Roman version of it) is what the Romans renamed Judea in 135 CE in order to humiliate the Jews and make them forget their homeland after they were defeated)

But this is what the Mandate for Palestine was for, and the people it was supposed to help create a State/country :

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and......

Art 2. The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate

--------------
The Mandate for Palestine was always meant to be the recreation of the Nation of the Jewish People. The Jews would be sovereign over the land (all 100 % of it, including TransJordan) with all other people living under Jewish sovereignty. ( As they still do in Israel)

This is something many here cannot recognize much less allow.

During the Mandate, all of those living in the region called Palestine became known as Palestinians, because of the name given to the mandate, and not because there ever had been a people called Palestinians in the region. There were businesses and Passports with the name of Palestine, because the British named the mandate so.

It was up to the Jewish people to name their Nation, just as the Iraqis chose Iraq (the indigenous may have wanted to keep Mesopotamia, who knows), once they became recognized as a country and declared Independence.

When Israel declared Independence in May 1948, their area of Palestine, after a second time rejected partition by the Arabs, became known as Israel. The State of Israel.

Also think about it for a minute, what right had Britain to decide to take land from the people living on the land to give it to people living on another continent? Does that make any sense?

 

[Shusha]

No, I am presenting simple concepts. You are making a claim and then utterly failing to bring information to support that claim. Let's talk about timelines then. Palestine became a defined territory in 1923. Those conditions still exist, nothing has changed them.

OK, this is good so far. This is the timeline.

• The allied powers planned to divide the ME into successor states.

• They defined the international borders for those successor states.

• The Treaty of Lausanne released the territory and ceded the land to the respective states with the stipulation that the residents would become citizens of their respective state.

• As the citizens of their new state, the Palestinians acquired the standard list of inalienable rights. 1) The right to self determination without external interference. 2) The right to independence and sovereignty. 3) The right to territorial integrity.

• The Mandate’s failure to help create a functioning independent state had no affect on the inalienable rights above. The Mandate had no authority to violate any of the Palestinian’s basic rights.

• The Mandate left Palestine but all of the Palestinian’s basic rights remained.

Now, how can you create Israel without violating any of the inalienable rights of the Palestinians?

Palestine (Israel) was created way back in step 3 outlined above. A fully functioning and independent government was, in fact, created. Therefore, in the context of this thread -- nothing prevents Israel from existing as a state. All of the requirements have been fulfilled. And you have failed to prove otherwise. End.



But to touch on a few things:

No one's inalienable rights were removed in anyway by the government of that territory. The treaties guaranteed full civil rights for the Arab peoples under a Jewish State. Those civil rights have been honored scrupulously by Israel in law. (Unlawful discrimination exists, as it does everywhere). (Unlike, the Jewish civil rights, also supposedly guaranteed under those same treaties, which were grossly violated by a number of the actors involved, and even many who should not have been involved.)

Arab Palestinian people still have the right to self-determination, independence and sovereignty and territorial integrity. They have not achieved these things yet. But they have those rights.

"Territorial integrity" does not prohibit ceding territory to form two new nations, from two existing ethnic groups. It has been done dozens of times in the past hundred years since the end of the age of Empires.