Israeli "Settlers" and violence

[Coyote]

I think one of the biggest obstacles, on Israel's side, preventing peace, is the settler movement.

They occupy land illegally, destroy the livelyhoods and possessions of the indiginous inhabitants, terrorize and injure them with violence, attack them in ways which would be labeled "hate crimes" in any civilized country yet they go largely unchallenged by the police or army. They engage in actions that would put the average Palestinian in jail.

Crimes against Palestinians by settlers seldom attain a conviction and seldom get reported in the mainstream Israeli news. The case of the child Adelle provoked outrage, crimes against Palestinians...silence or scorn and deflection.

The prevailing feeling seems to be that they "deserved it" because "they" have done worse...or it's all "faked". Palestinians as a people are not seperated from the actions of extremists amongst them and that somehow justifies diminishing them as people, ignoring basic human rights and meting out an impartial justice particularly where the settlers are concerned.

People exist who believe the holocaust was faked. In fact, during the initial stages of the holocaust people refused to "believe" (or didn't want to believe) that Jews were being rounded up and killed. There was little call to action despite eye witness accounts from people who had been smuggled in and out to report. They were just "Jews" and anti-semitism was as prevalent in the U.S. (who refused to take in refugees at that early time) as it was in Europe. Those sentiments aren't directed against just Jews but against any minority seen as vulnerable and easy to intimidate. Religious justifications just add more hate.

I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews, or the of the anti-immigrant groups towards Mexicans or Egyption Muslims towards the Coptic minority in Egypt. Attitudes are the same and, likewise isnan unwillingness by some to condemn it for what it is, hate, directed at people who can't easily defend themselves whether because they are in a country illegally and fearful of authority; or a minority in a volatile situation in a country that turns a legal blind eye towards violence against certain groups.

For example - stuff like this should not be tolerated in a country that lives by a western style of human rights and freedoms and where children should not have to live in fear whether Jewish or Muslim:

Settlers Attack Three Children Near Jerusalem - International Middle East Media Center

Mahmoud Abu Ghaya, a resident of the Al-Jahaleen Bedouin village, stated that the setters attacked three schoolchildren while walking to school inflicting various injuries.

The army arrived at the scene and prevented Yahia Habayeb, a local reporter working for the Ajyal Radio, from documenting the attack, and confiscated his camera.

Abu Ghaya added that Bedouin families in the area have been repeatedly attacked; adding that most attacks targeted schoolchildren.

Mohammad Ka’abna, the father of the three children, stated that the settlers have also attacked his children Bayan, 6, Amer and Ali, 9, last Thursday, and added that the settlers came from the Adam illegal settlement.

He further stated that one of his children is refusing to go to school fearing additional attacks by the settlers.

The settlers don't represent all of Israel - they are a distinct minority with a disproportionately powerful political voice. They are not universally liked within Israel and their political influence and enroachment seems to have created two systems of justice within one territory: one for Jews and one for Arabs.

 

[Lipush]

just healthy curiosity, why you say "settlers" with a

 

[Lipush]

"largely unchallenged by the police or army"

I suggest you google "Amona pogrom"

 

[Lipush]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

 

[Coyote]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

 

[Coyote]

just healthy curiosity, why you say "settlers" with a

Because I don't consider them "settlers" - they are a group of people intent on driving another group out of an area by occupation. They do it illegally and call themselves "settlers" in an attempt to legitimize their actions. That's my opinion.

 

[Lipush]

They do not call themselves "settlers". Settlers is a word which is foreign and not the correct form of how they call themselves.

 

[Lipush]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

Sentiments.

Not actions.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[Lipush]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

 

[sealadaigh]

"largely unchallenged by the police or army"

I suggest you google "Amona pogrom"

the police and authorities were ordered by the courts to dismantle permanent structures ILLEGALLY built in the settlement of amona on the private property of some palestinian families. in attempting to do so, they were met by a large group of jewish protestors who hurled bricks, metal pipes, stones and whatever was handy at the police. both sides afflicted injuries upon the other before the structures were eveacuated.

i think the fact that you call such an incident a "pogrom", as an israeli citisen, more than proves coyote's point...and also says a helluva lot about you and israelis in general. you have also brought up another instance of de facto apartheid.

the reaction of the israeli forces to the settlers in this "pogrom" could accurately be called mild relative to the reaction of israeli forces to far less threatening protests of palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

 

[toastman]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

The point just flew right over you head eh ?

 

[Coyote]

Of course not----its a matter of thousands of years of a THROAT SLITTING
CULTURE read the koran and learn something about islamic More's.

I have read it and, like the OT and NT which I also read, there is a lot of violance. Y'all Abrahamics have a vengeful intolerant deity that encourages his adherents to acts of rampant vandalism, violence, and spontaneous combustion. That's just the bad side and there is little difference overall among the holy books.

Aside from that, I've read it and am reading it and the Bible in the context of the history in which the events took place. I suggest you do that as well. It might enlighten you.

We
know little about pre islamic arabia----but we do know that the CUSTOMS
OF ARABIA ----travel along with islamic conquests via islam

We know more than you think - have you ever read Karen Armstrong's books? She writes about all the faiths and I am currently reading an excellant history of Mohammed, in the context of his times.

read a bit from the really good developemental psychologists of
the past-----their are lots of studies ---where psychology, psychiatry
sociology and anthropology meet----excellent are ERIK ERIKSON
and ERICH FROMM.

These are the ones?
Erik Erikson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Erich Fromm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have heard the names, but not read them. How do they relate to Islam? And - how does that relation make Islam any different than any other religion?

 

[P F Tinmore]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

The point just flew right over you head eh ?

I flew over the point on your head????

 

[Coyote]

They do not call themselves "settlers". Settlers is a word which is foreign and not the correct form of how they call themselves.

The Israeli media refers to them as settlers and their actions are that of "settlers".

Actually, I made kind of a poor analogy in my OP comparing attitudes to immigrants or Germans - the Israeli settlers remind me very strongly of the American settlers expanding westward and their attitudes and treatments of the indiginous tribes.

They felt compelled by "manifest destiny" - they had the right to take the lands, and part of the right was that the "savages" were doing nothing to improve the lands - as if being nomadic or subsistance/communal farming was not enough. Like the Israeli's with the Palestinians they confiscated lands they desired by right of manifest destiny. The Indians fought back in much the same way as the Palestinians and their tactics were bloody - but, in the face of far advanced weaponry and organization, they were all either "domesticated" (ie - they "knew their place") or relegated to reservations on the most resource poor lands that existed.

I think there are similarities to the settler's sense of entitlement and the American expansionist movement.

 

[sealadaigh]

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group
as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

Of course not----its a matter of thousands of years of a THROAT SLITTING
CULTURE read the koran and learn something about islamic More's. We
know little about pre islamic arabia----but we do know that the CUSTOMS
OF ARABIA ----travel along with islamic conquests via islam

read a bit from the really good developemental psychologists of
the past-----their are lots of studies ---where psychology, psychiatry
sociology and anthropology meet----excellent are ERIK ERIKSON
and ERICH FROMM.

perhaaps you should read and try to understand what coyote just saaid...before more throats get slit.

people do rise up against oppression in maany different ways. i can empatise with the reasons that drove these young men to completely destroy their young lives as much as i can sympathise with the terrible tragedy suffered by the fogels.

desperate conditions result in desperate acts. that is not a statement of value on my part. it is merely a statement of fact.

 

[Coyote]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

How many times have Palestinians cut a baby's throat?

The point just flew right over you head eh ?

It's a good question Toastman, in light of the often repeated "baby throat slitting" refrain when this gets discussed.

Do you have an answer? Or, will you admit that, like the "Zionist baby killer" refrain, it's largely a false attempt to demonize a people?

 

[sealadaigh]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

without excusing the itamar killings at all, perhaps it behooves israelis to know and understand, as hard as that may be, the who and what behind the darkness of sentiment that leads to such acts.

that is probably the first step towards peace and solution.

 

[Coyote]

Of course not----its a matter of thousands of years of a THROAT SLITTING
CULTURE read the koran and learn something about islamic More's. We
know little about pre islamic arabia----but we do know that the CUSTOMS
OF ARABIA ----travel along with islamic conquests via islam

read a bit from the really good developemental psychologists of
the past-----their are lots of studies ---where psychology, psychiatry
sociology and anthropology meet----excellent are ERIK ERIKSON
and ERICH FROMM.

perhaaps you should read and try to understand what coyote just saaid...before more throats get slit.

people do rise up against oppression in maany different ways. i can empatise with the reasons that drove these young men to completely destroy their young lives as much as i can sympathise with the terrible tragedy suffered by the fogels.

desperate conditions result in desperate acts. that is not a statement of value on my part. it is merely a statement of fact.

Good point...I hope that folks will read your last statement and think without jumping to the conclusion that you are somehow justifying the actions.

It's not, like you say a value judgement. It is what it is. And failing to understand that means we fail to ever come to a resolution to the conflict.

I tend to think that the Palestinians are a people with nothing left to lose and when people have nothing left to lose, they are very dangerous.

If they had a country, as they justly deserve - they would have something to lose and, like any other country, their feet could be held to the fire if they show themselves to be bad actors. They would be responsible for security, for human rights abuses and the control of violence like any other country.

 

[Coyote]

"I don't see much difference in the sentiments of the Israeli Settlers towards Palestinians than I do in the attitudes of the Germans in the 1930's and 40's towards Jews"

That comment is insulting.

When did German babies' throats were cut by Jews?

Sentiments.

Not actions.

What sort of sentiments do you think eventually led to actions?

A systematic demonization and dehumanization of an entire group of people (Jews) - what were the sentiments driving that? Anytime one group of people starts to see another group as less than human, it is very dangerous. Do you think they just woke up one morning and thought - wow, I want to cut some baby throats?

I do not wanna know what sentiment can lead to someone wishing to cut out an infants throat.

I don't see myself doing it no matter how pissed I might become. Once you do that, there is not much humanity left in you.

I can't imagine myself wanting to do that.

I also can't imagine myself ever living with such an act on my conscience.

I can't imagine hating enough for that.

But also, I have never:
been truly desperate
afraid for my life
in a situation where I knew there could be no justice for me
faced with corruption that would insure no justice
without a country
despised for who I am
afraid of losing my home for no reason I could fight
afraid of my family being killed
never knowing if I might be arrested for who I am
never been locked up without access to any source of help
never faced desperation
never faced a choice of doing something unspeakable or having my family suffer

There are a lot of situations I've never faced. If faced with life or death - or, more important, the life or death of my child or family - what would I choose to do? I know what I hope, but I've never faced it.

In the case of the Fogels, did they catch who was responsible? I can't imagine someone doing being any different from some of the cold blooded Nazi's who coldly and systematically selected Jews for human experimentation. I feel that same way about those who ordered white phospherous into Gaza as well. It's inhuman. And cold blooded.

And above all, they had to know it would hurt and maim innocents. But they couldn't have considered them humans. They had to be seen as less than human. Or how could a person do it?