Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Shusha]

Is settler colonialism legitimate?

I think you are asking the wrong question. Settler migration happens.

The question is whether or not, and in what context, it should be prevented or undone.

For example, should all non-Jews be expected to leave Israel, Judea and Samaria? Why or why not? Or should all Jews be required to leave Europe and other places and return to their homeland in Israel? Why or why not?

 

[Shusha]

Or wait. My family moved to Canada from Wicklow, Ireland in the mid 1800s. If settler migration is not legitimate does that mean I have to move back to Ireland? I even know the exact farm and property that my ancestors (well, some of them) came from. Does that mean I have to go back to that exact property? Or can I just go back to any place in Ireland?

Or, wait....if I return to Ireland, does that mean I am a settler from Canada? Am I creating a Canadian colony there? Oh dear.

This is most confusing.

 

[montelatici]

Did the people from Wicklow expel most of the native people and declare a state in which the people of Wicklow would rule over the native people they did not expel.?

 

[fncceo]

Did the people from Wicklow expel most of the native people and declare a state in which the people of Wicklow would rule over the native people they did not expel.?

No, and neither did Israel. And to insinuate that they did is perfidious to the point of obscenity.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Or wait. My family moved to Canada from Wicklow, Ireland in the mid 1800s. If settler migration is not legitimate does that mean I have to move back to Ireland? I even know the exact farm and property that my ancestors (well, some of them) came from. Does that mean I have to go back to that exact property? Or can I just go back to any place in Ireland?

Or, wait....if I return to Ireland, does that mean I am a settler from Canada? Am I creating a Canadian colony there? Oh dear.

This is most confusing.

Did they move to Canada to be Canadian?

 

[Shusha]

Did the people from Wicklow expel most of the native people and declare a state in which the people of Wicklow would rule over the native people they did not expel.?

You aren't making sense. The "people from Wicklow" would be the native people, wouldn't they? Or do you mean people from elsewhere invading Wicklow and expelling the native people? Or people simply migrating from one place to another.

If I was one of the natives, and I was expelled, would I be permitted to return? What if I was one of the invaders, would I be permitted to return? What if I was an invader originally, but lived there a really, really long time? And then I was kicked out? Would I be allowed to return? If I return, am I a native? Or an invader? Or a colonist from Canada?

Come on, Monte -- think this through. What is your "rule" here.

 

[Shusha]

Did they move to Canada to be Canadian?

One would assume. Not sure that anyone knew what that meant at the time.

But...your point is what? What if people migrate in order to adopt the local culture it is fine, but if they want to override or supersede the local culture its problematic? If yes, what should be done about it? Should we somehow try to unbreak the eggs? How do we choose which eggs to try to unbreak? Give me some concrete, objective parameters here.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What if people migrate in order to adopt the local culture it is fine, but if they want to override or supersede the local culture its problematic?

Good questions. That would depend on their intent.

If people go to Palestine to be Palestinians and live with the Palestinians that is one thing. If people go to Palestine to replace the Palestinians that is another.

The former would be immigrants. The latter would be invaders.

 

[Phoenall]

Or wait. My family moved to Canada from Wicklow, Ireland in the mid 1800s. If settler migration is not legitimate does that mean I have to move back to Ireland? I even know the exact farm and property that my ancestors (well, some of them) came from. Does that mean I have to go back to that exact property? Or can I just go back to any place in Ireland?

Or, wait....if I return to Ireland, does that mean I am a settler from Canada? Am I creating a Canadian colony there? Oh dear.

This is most confusing.

Am I glad that I can trace my ancestry back to the 11C in England and so be seen as truly indigenous

 

[Shusha]

... If people go to Palestine to replace the Palestinians that is another.

Define what you mean by "replace the Palestinians?" Do you mean physically remove them (exile, ethnic cleansing), kill them or just replace their culture with your own?

 

[Phoenall]

Did the people from Wicklow expel most of the native people and declare a state in which the people of Wicklow would rule over the native people they did not expel.?

You mean like the Romans did, then the Roman Catholics, arab muslims and then non arab muslims did to Israel ? Then claimed they were indigenous when they invaded yet again in the early 20C because the true land owners were returning home.

 

[Phoenall]

Or wait. My family moved to Canada from Wicklow, Ireland in the mid 1800s. If settler migration is not legitimate does that mean I have to move back to Ireland? I even know the exact farm and property that my ancestors (well, some of them) came from. Does that mean I have to go back to that exact property? Or can I just go back to any place in Ireland?

Or, wait....if I return to Ireland, does that mean I am a settler from Canada? Am I creating a Canadian colony there? Oh dear.

This is most confusing.

Did they move to Canada to be Canadian?

Did your ancestors move to America to be Mohican, Sioux, Najaho or Cherokee ?

 

[Phoenall]

What if people migrate in order to adopt the local culture it is fine, but if they want to override or supersede the local culture its problematic?

Good questions. That would depend on their intent.

If people go to Palestine to be Palestinians and live with the Palestinians that is one thing. If people go to Palestine to replace the Palestinians that is another.

The former would be immigrants. The latter would be invaders.

So the Jews were immigrants, and the arab muslims invaders using your criteria

 

[fncceo]

Am I glad that I can trace my ancestry back to the 11C in England and so be seen as truly indigenous

Since the Norman Conquest occurred in 1066, there is a distinct possibility that your British ancestors were not, in fact, indigenous Saxons or Celts.

 

[Phoenall]

Am I glad that I can trace my ancestry back to the 11C in England and so be seen as truly indigenous

Since the Norman Conquest occurred in 1066, there is a distinct possibility that your British ancestors were not, in fact, indigenous Saxons or Celts.

It is also the time that records started to be kept, and I believe my ancestors were in this part of England before this time. Going on the names there is a possibility of them being from the tribe of Mycenae led by Boedecia

 

[P F Tinmore]

... If people go to Palestine to replace the Palestinians that is another.

Define what you mean by "replace the Palestinians?" Do you mean physically remove them (exile, ethnic cleansing), kill them or just replace their culture with your own?

Yes.

 

[aris2chat]

P F Tinmore, et al,

It is a nice little jingle; but then there is the meaning and implication. The Ant-Israeli Jingle states a premise for the backdrop to asked the compound questions:

Backdrop:

• Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is "full of hate."
• The "Arabs won't recognized the Jewish State."
• The "Palestinians won't accept Jewish Rule on their Holy Ground."
• The neighboring "Arab don't accept their new neighbors" [Israel].
• Palestinians do not approve of Israel as a neighboring state.
• The Arabs and the Palestinians "do not respect" Israel.
​

The Chorus Questions:

• "Where are " [Israelis] borders?
• Where are the borders "drawn in Black and White"?
• "Do they" [the borders] "include:

√ The West Bank?
√ Gaza?
√ Golan Heights
​

Another song and dance in place of a coherent response.

(OBSERVATIONS and EXHIBITS)

• Israel-PLO Recognition: Exchange of Letters Between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat:

1. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO PRIME MINISTER RABIN: September 9, 1993
√ "The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security."

2. LETTER FROM YASSER ARAFAT TO NORWEGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: September 9, 1993
√ "PLO encourages and calls upon the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to take part in the steps leading to the normalization of life, rejecting violence and terrorism, contributing to peace and stability and participating actively in shaping reconstruction, economic develoment and cooperation."

3. LETTER FROM PRIME MINISTER RABIN TO YASSER ARAFAT: September 9, 1993
√ [T]he Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
​

• Treaties outlining the Internationally Recognized boundaries:

√ Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel, 26 March 1979​

∆ Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

​

√ Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty, 26 October 1994,

[T]he treaty defined Jordan’s western borders clearly and conclusively for the first time, putting an end to the dangerous and false Zionist claim that “Jordan is Palestine.”
​

∆ Article 3 - International Boundary

1. The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.
2. The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.
3. The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.
4. The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.
​

​

• General Map of the Golan Heights Annexed by Israel.

View attachment 99521​

(DISCUSSION and COMMENTS)

I think that, beyond that of a normal Israeli Citizen, PM Netanyahu it no more hateful of the Arab Palestinian as may normally be expected towards a nation that sponsors Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence.

The honesty, integrity and moral fiber of the Arab Palestinian is very much demonstrated in its political flip-flop on the question of recognition. As you can see, there is no one single voice that speaks with authority for the Arab Palestinians. But, there was a time when the Arab Palestinians did recognize the State of Israel. But on the question of recognizing the Jewish State, that is a matter of discrimination at the political level based on religion. It is committed in the context of an Arab Palestinian regime of systematic domination by one racial Islamic group committed with the intention of suppressing the Jewish State in favor of an Islamic State. NOTE: ARTICLE 6 Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933 The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable. The importance here relates to the allegation that Israel is truly concerned about the actual recognition by the Arab Palestinians. Actually, the Israelis are calling into question the competency of the Arab Palestinian regime in its attempt to shift its position in the face of customary practices in diplomatic relations. If the PLO (the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian People) recognized Israel in 1993 (See Exchange of Letters); then how can it withdraw the recognition? And IF that is possible because they question the development of the people towards self-governance, THEN is anything the Palestinians say or agree to valid?

With the exception of the Temple Mount, there is no other area considered of religious or sacred significance. While the Arab Palestinian want to make an issue on this point, all three major religions are stakeholders in this argument; operating under the same Supreme Being (The God of Abraham). However, many of the Hostile Arabs have chosen to scramble this point and make it an exploitable factor in the confrontation.

Whether or not the Arab Palestinians approve or disapprove of Israel as a neighboring state is totally irrelevant. The only way for the Hostile Arab Palestinian to rectify this issue in their favor is to dismantle the Jewish State. And that would be contrary to the original intention to erect a national home to protect and preserve the culture that has come under abuse so many times in history.

Most Respectfully,
R

This last month Abbas said they would not recognize is real and hamas said they would not make peace as long as is real exists.
Both sides of their mouth, there is no unity among pals

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[aris2chat]

Lets just consider documented facts. Fair enough?

Israel's History and Right to Exist - Discover the Networks

The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations.​

The first sentence is a lie. Shall I continue?

YES BY PROVING IT IS A LIE USING UNBIASED SOURCES

The facts on the ground prove my point. Nothing in Resolution 181 really happened. The UN created nothing.

Israel has been a member of the UN more than 60 yrs. Pals are observers in waiting

Is this what you are reduced to comical songs that would not even raise a penny if he sat in a N.Y subway station performing them.

You are now scraping underneath the barrel for any residue your anti semitic/anti Israel/anti Jew videos have been proven wrong so many times now

Calling names is a sign of losing.

So that is why you have done this so many times in the past.

Now were is the name calling in pointing out that you are desperate for new material after seeing your old lot debunked, destroyed and proven to be lies ?

Telling lies and calling names does not debunk anything.

Detail the lies and name calling please, as your word on these matters is far from trustworthy and believable

Understanding this situation requires clear thinking. Your thinking stops at the end of Israeli propaganda. That is why it is confusing to you.

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[aris2chat]

I think, more correctly, the Jewish People, like many other peoples of the same time and place were provided with the opportunity to develop self-determination on territory left sovereignless by the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

Not true. The sovereignty lies in the people. By international law and the Treaty of Lausanne, the former Turkish citizens would be Palestinian citizens. A government derives its legitimacy from the will of the people. The sovereignty of the government is merely an extension of the peoples sovereignty.

Preventing the people from forming their own government at the point of a gun does not negate their rights. It is a violation of their rights. Holding their territory at the point of a gun is not sovereignty, it is a military occupation.

Pals did not form legit state when Jordan or Egypt controlled the land.
Pals refuse to agreement for a state now.

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[P F Tinmore]

I think, more correctly, the Jewish People, like many other peoples of the same time and place were provided with the opportunity to develop self-determination on territory left sovereignless by the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

Not true. The sovereignty lies in the people. By international law and the Treaty of Lausanne, the former Turkish citizens would be Palestinian citizens. A government derives its legitimacy from the will of the people. The sovereignty of the government is merely an extension of the peoples sovereignty.

Preventing the people from forming their own government at the point of a gun does not negate their rights. It is a violation of their rights. Holding their territory at the point of a gun is not sovereignty, it is a military occupation.

Pals did not form legit state when Jordan or Egypt controlled the land.
Pals refuse to agreement for a state now.

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PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE​

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT

28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

Recognition by other states is not a requirement. That being said, five other states recognized Palestine at that time.