Israel's War Against Hamas - Updates

[Shusha]

No. Can't agree. Not in the least.

Some 7,000 Palistinian civilions dead, likely more trapped under rubble. 600 Americancitizens trapped in Gaza. Many of the dead are children. Entire families wiped out. A complete seige and deliberate destruction of communications. No way to odependently verify anything and a good way to hide war crimes. Refusal to allow humanitarian aid.

I'm seeing a dimminishing difference between the actions of Israel and the actions of Russia in Ukraine.

I acknowledge that when it comes to to Gaza, Israel is faced with a set of bad choices, but that doesn't mean "no choice" or that what is currently happening is the "only choice".

What Israel should do now

Israel’s current approach is clearly wrong. Here’s a better way to fight Hamas — and win.

www.vox.com

And vengeance?

Listen to what the people currently in power in the Israeli government have said about Palestinians and evenArab Israeli's.

Great article. I'm not sure where you think our points of disagreement are.

First, that Israel had not only a right but a moral obligation to respond to Hamas’ vicious attack on its civilian population.
Agree? No?

This may not seem obvious, as a ceasefire would certainly lead to some immediate reduction in civilian suffering. Indeed, a temporary ceasefire to provide humanitarian relief before further Israeli escalation might well be a good idea.
Agree? No?

But an indefinite ceasefire is politically impossible in Israel — no major faction could countenance it — for reasons that speak to the very purpose of having a state. Governments owe their citizens a duty of protection, to keep them safe from external threats. If Hamas is not militarily degraded and deterred by the end of this operation, the Israeli state will have failed in this basic task.
Agree? No?

Second, that no matter how barbarous Hamas’ conduct, Israel cannot itself ignore the laws and moral codes governing warfare in response. While civilian casualties are a terrible inevitability in warfare, there are clear moral rules that any state must follow — even when facing a brutal enemy who disregards all of them like Hamas.
Agree? No?

I will further add to the quote from the article above:
Hamas and the people of Gaza have a responsibility as well. It can not all be laid on Israel.
Agree? No?

 

[rylah]

I see what you mean about a state of war, but think we will remain at odds regarding collective punishment.

Is "collective punishment" a term applied to evoke sympathy and avoid responsibility...

Because you do realize, since that massacre, since that day, and as we speak,
Israeli citizens have been under Hamas bombardment?

I believe my question is still not answered. When does a military action become an act of vengeance?

When military action is not intended to end hostility,
but rather to exact a price, or prolong the conflict,
regardless of consequence.

Now, it's one thing for those involved to use that loaded rhetoric,
it's a whole another thing when outsider demagogues do it to
inflame the conflict, and maybe even threaten with potential
violence of the "Free Palestine" mobs...

 

[rylah]

No. Can't agree. Not in the least.

Some 7,000 Palistinian civilions dead, likely more trapped under rubble. 600 Americancitizens trapped in Gaza. Many of the dead are children. Entire families wiped out. A complete seige and deliberate destruction of communications. No way to odependently verify anything and a good way to hide war crimes. Refusal to allow humanitarian aid.

I'm seeing a dimminishing difference between the actions of Israel and the actions of Russia in Ukraine.

I acknowledge that when it comes to to Gaza, Israel is faced with a set of bad choices, but that doesn't mean "no choice" or that what is currently happening is the "only choice".

What Israel should do now

Israel’s current approach is clearly wrong. Here’s a better way to fight Hamas — and win.

www.vox.com

And vengeance?

Listen to what the people currently in power in the Israeli government have said about Palestinians and evenArab Israeli's.

Indeed, there's another choice - for Gazans to start targeting or killing Hamas themselves.

 

[Sixties Fan]

No. Can't agree. Not in the least.

Some 7,000 Palistinian civilions dead, likely more trapped under rubble. 600 Americancitizens trapped in Gaza. Many of the dead are children. Entire families wiped out. A complete seige and deliberate destruction of communications. No way to odependently verify anything and a good way to hide war crimes. Refusal to allow humanitarian aid.

I'm seeing a dimminishing difference between the actions of Israel and the actions of Russia in Ukraine.

I acknowledge that when it comes to to Gaza, Israel is faced with a set of bad choices, but that doesn't mean "no choice" or that what is currently happening is the "only choice".

What Israel should do now

Israel’s current approach is clearly wrong. Here’s a better way to fight Hamas — and win.

www.vox.com

And vengeance?

Listen to what the people currently in power in the Israeli government have said about Palestinians and evenArab Israeli's.

1) There are no 7000 Gaza people dead. No one can verify that.

How many are Hamas?
How many are people Hamas uses as Human Shield?
Palestinian Americans are not being allowed to leave by Hamas.

People in the North are not being allowed to move South because of Hamas.

Getting rid of Hamas is the only choice for Israel and the people of Gaza who are not for Hamas, and do not want to be used, and are forced to live a poor life while Hamas collects all the money and medicine, and food and other supplies.

Never mind what Israeli governments have said about Palestinians. Palestinian society is one of "Kill the Jews" and "Destroy Israel".


It is beyond amazing that one can be for a society, any society like that.

 

[Sixties Fan]

There is a patallel between Russia and Israel now.

Russia invades and attacks Ukraine. Targets civilian cities, not military positions, kidnapped children and took them to Russia.

Hamas invades Israel, targets civilians mostly, kidnaps children, elderly and non Israelis as well.

Russia = Hamas
Hamas = Russia

Russia and Hamas = ISIS


Learn. Really learn.

 

[rylah]

There is a patallel between Russia and Israel now.

Israel is fighting for exclusive domination over several continents?
Except that we know who in this conflict actually does...

Shows the length "Free Palestine" will go to twist
facts and logic for empathy to their cause,

simply put - Arab imperialism.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ 2000 years of lies about Jews, defaming Jews, dehumanizing Jews.......and anything Jews do to defend themselves is a spark against Jews. Any lies about Jews, any lies about Israel, and this is the result. Humans who are incapable of thinking for themselves. A Mob, like cattle, on a stampede ]

'Anti-Israeli mob' storms airport in Dagestan 'searching for Jews' forcing flight from Tel Aviv to divert

A flight from Tel Aviv to the Russian Republic of Dagestan has been forced to divert after Makhachkala airport was stormed by an 'anti-Israeli mob hunting for Jews'.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[Sixties Fan]

Palestinian civilians are being screwed by their leaders, and being told it is for their own good. Again. ​

In the early 1950s, when UNRWA was still trying to actually help Palestinian refugees from 1948 to rebuild their lives in the countries they fled to, self-appointed "leaders" of the Palestinians resisted all plans that would help the people. They refused any plans that would give them citizenship, they protested any building of more permanent shelters, they objected to works programs that would help the refugees become self-sufficient.

These "leaders" justified their refusal by saying that they wanted to keep Palestinian identity alive. Left unsaid was that they considered keeping them miserable was an integral part of their plan to maintain this identity.

All of these decisions were made without the refugees themselves having any say in the matter. And the refugees who actually tried to take advantage of these UNRWA initiatives were threatened.

Similarly, when Israel tried to move Gazans out of their camps and into permanent homes in the 1970s, the PLO was against the plan - even though thousands of Gazans eagerly wanted to take advantage of it - and they got two UN resolutions against the voluntary resettlement of Gazans into decent housing.

Palestinian misery was justified as being the best thing for Palestinians, with the decisions being made by people who live in mansions.

Now, the PLO Executive Committee has met and again decided that Palestinian misery is in their own best interest.


In a meeting yesterday, as reported by Wafa, "The Executive Committee also affirmed its firm rejection of the forced displacement of our people, whether in the Gaza Strip or outside it, ....as this displacement that the occupation is trying to promote aims to create a new nakba for our people. Therefore, our people will remain steadfast on their land. They have the right to resist and struggle for their freedom and independence."

That means that the PLO is saying that the Gazans must not leave their homes even if Israel drops leaflets telling them where to go to stay safe. And they are also saying that Gazans must not be allowed to leave Gaza to save their families.

And again, they are justifying endangering the live of their own people as being for their own good.

From their boardroom in Ramallah.

Without asking a single person in Gaza what they would prefer to do.

Notice they are also not demanding that the Gazans be allowed to go to the West Bank, still within the borders of British Mandate Palestine, in areas fully under Palestinian control, to save their lives.

It isn't only Hamas who use Gazans as pawns. The PLO - who claim to be the only true representative of the Palestinian people - are willing to publicly screw them as well.

And the world doesn't even blink.

Palestinian civilians are being screwed by their leaders, and being told it is for their own good. Again.

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[rylah]

Guess which leader so appreciated for his peace efforts,

threw this garbage overboard at night in buses?

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ And the anti Israel education continues. By Any Means ]

Socialists admit that "by any means necessary" includes rape, beheading, burning babies alive​

In the anti-Israel rally in Brooklyn yesterday, this sign was featured:



It is a slogan we've been seeing for years, and in plain English it means that there is no limit to what may be done in order to destroy Israel - including suicide bombs, raping women, beheading children and burning babies alive.

But do the people who chant these slogans really believe that?

One prominent socialist website says, of course they do.

The Socialist Workers Party of the UK published an articlea week after the pogrom in Israel fully justifying everything that was done, insisting that the slogan " by any means necessary" is meant quite literally:

​

Free Palestine: Why we say by any means necessary​

Following the assault on Israelis by the Palestinian resistance, there are those who say a violent fightback is never justified. Isabel Ringrose explains that the oppressed have a right to take up arms against their colonisers

Uprisings against colonial rule are violent because violence is an inherent part of imperialism and colonialism.

That’s why the resistance by Palestinians against the racist Israeli terror state is wholly justified. All the deaths, horrors and destruction—all of them—are rooted in violent Israeli occupation and dispossession. And this is the case not just in Palestine. Wherever imperialism has gone, violence has followed.

So literally anything goes in the name of being anti-imperialist.

It isn't rhetoric: the same logic that justifies raping Jewish women in Israel can justify raping Jewish women in the West because they are "Zionist." If the Tree of Life shooter had been Arab, they would support that as well.

This article was republished in an Australian socialist site as well.

Socialists admit that "by any means necessary" includes rape, beheading, burning babies alive

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ NOTICE, that no attacks on Russians or Ukrainians have happened since Russia invaded Ukraine. Somehow, some Christians and Muslims see Jews and Israel as different, special, the kind which must be hunted down whenever they feel like it ]


Antisemitic demonstrations and attacks against Jewish institutions are growing across Russia’s north Caucus region, according to various local media reports and videos shared on social media.

The attacks included large crowds in the city of Hasbiurt in the Caucasian Republic of Dagestan besieging a hotel where they claimed Israelis were staying.

The mob then raided the hotel and searched for Jews, according to Yaroslav Trofimov, a reporter with the Wall Street Journal. The group dispersed when none were found.






(full article online)

‘Entry to Citizens of Israel Strictly Forbidden’: Antisemitism Growing in Russian Regions - Algemeiner.com

Antisemitic demonstrations and attacks against Jewish institutions are growing across Russia's north Caucus region, according to various local media reports and videos shared on social media. The attacks included large crowds in the city of Hasbiurt in the Caucasian Republic of Dagestan...

www.algemeiner.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer met with opposition leader Yair Lapid on Wednesday, where he told him that chants supporting Hamas, including calls like “from the river to the sea,” will become a criminal offense in Austria.

Austria’s Nehammer says pro-Hamas chants will become criminal offense

www.ynetnews.com

 

[rylah]

GazaNow: Binance nationalized 12,000 accounts affiliated with Hamas

 

[rylah]

Czech Defense Minister calls to quit UN after resolution omits Hamas, hostages

Czech Defense Minister Jana Cernochova has called for her country to leave the United Nations following the General Assembly approval of a resolution demandin

www.malaysiasun.com

 

[rylah]

Russian sources - Turkey considers sending L400 Anadolu to the shore of Gaza

 

[Sixties Fan]

[The result of more and more "We do not care about Jews. As I have said before, the Inquisition never ended, it simply moved to all over the world]

On October 11, anti-Israel "Palestinian solidarity groups" at Columbia University issued a statement pretending to care about dead Israelis but blaming their deaths on Israel:

The loss of a human life is a deeply painful and heartbreaking experience for loved ones, regardless of one's affiliation. We extend our heartfelt condolences to the individuals and communities at Columbia University affected by the tragic losses experienced by both Palestinians and Israelis. The sting of tears, the weight on our hearts, and the profound sense of loss are universal emotions that connect us all in grief and unify us by experience. As we mourn the loss of lives, let us come together as a Columbia community and fervently advocate for the universal human right to live in peace and seek justice. We also affirm that there can be no future of safety and freedom for all Israelis and Palestinians without holding the Israeli occupation accountable for its actions and putting an end to the untenable status quo of Israel's apartheid and colonial system.

We cannot view the recent actions of Palestinian fighters in isolation. Gaza is an open-air prison...

The rest of the statement was completely anti-Israel and then even implied that the slaughter, rape and kidnapping of Israelis is legal under international law:

[W]e remind Columbia students that the Palestinian struggle for freedom is rooted in international law, under which occupied peoples have the right to resist the occupation of their land. If every political avenue available to Palestinians is blocked, we should not be surprised when resistance and violence break out.

This is stomach turning stuff. But it was written by groups that are anti-Israel by definition, who lie as easily as they tear down "kidnapped" signs, and who have no concept of reality, history or international law. It is revolting but not surprising from these groups.

However, a large number of Columbia faculty issued an open letter of their own defending this statement - and in some ways, going beyond it:

As scholars who are committed to robust inquiry about the most challenging matters of our time, we feel compelled to respond to those who label our students anti-Semitic if they express empathy for the lives and dignity of Palestinians, and/or if they signed on to a student-written statement that situated the military action begun on October 7th within the larger context of the occupation of Palestine by Israel. ...
The student statement begins with language that should satisfy any measure of decency: “The loss of a human life is a deeply painful and heartbreaking experience for loved ones, regardless of one's affiliation. We extend our heartfelt condolences to the individuals and communities at Columbia University affected by the tragic losses experienced by both Palestinians and Israelis.” ...
In our view, the student statement aims to recontextualize the events of October 7, 2023,pointing out that military operations and state violence did not begin that day, but rather it represented a military response by a people who had endured crushing and unrelenting state violence from an occupying power over many years. One could regard the events of October 7th as just one salvo in an ongoing war between an occupying state and the people it occupies, or as an occupied people exercising a right to resist violent and illegal occupation, something anticipated by international humanitarian law in the Second Geneva Protocol. In either case armed resistance by an occupied people must conform to the laws of war, which include a prohibition against the intentional targeting of civilians. The statement reflects and endorses this legal framework, including a condemnation of the killing of civilians.

Any "recontextualization" of the pogrom is, by definition, an attempt to minimize it. That's what the student statement did and that's what these faculty members are doing. Their calling the deliberate slaughter of civilians, gang rapes of women and burning babies alive a mere "loss of human life" as if it was an auto accident is perverted and, yes, antisemitic. Their refusal to ascribe any responsibility to the Palestinian terrorists for their actions is sick. Their calling these attacks that targeted the elderly, women and children "military action," "military operations" and a "military response" is giving Hamas legitimacy instead of contempt. Calling the worst attack on Jewish civilians since Auschwitz "just one salvo in an ongoing war" is nothing less than a dismissal of the seriousness of the murderous orgy that was planned and executed by Hamas.

Moreover, the original statement did not condemn the killing of Israeli civilians at all as this letter claimed.

The faculty statement was even worse than the statement of the anti-Israel groups. And the fact that this was done by those who are entrusted to teach all students at Columbia shows that Columbia itself is an immoral institution that blames victims for their own deaths.

This disgusting letter puts Jews at risk. Because if "resistance" is a human right and even praiseworthy, and if slaughtering civilians is merely a "military operation" and a minor "salvo" in a much longer war, then who defines what "resistance" is acceptable? Why shouldn't Palestinians on campus attack Zionist Jews on campus in the name of this "resistance' whose legality and acceptance magically expands to anything Palestinians do, with no apparent limit?

If these are the people teaching students at Columbia, and there is no pushback from the administration or from a much larger number of other faculty, then Columbia is not a university as much as it is an antisemitic hellhole.

Columbia University's faculty are even worse than its students, calling rape and murdering babies a "military response"

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 1

[ This has been in the works since 1948. And then got worse since 1967 and 1973 when Arab countries could not destroy Israel. The "education" of future generations to hate Jews and destroy Israel became the main goal of Jew haters. The explosion of hatred for Jews all over the world, once the shock of the massacre ran out, is a conclusion of all of the work Muslims and Christians have been pouring all of their efforts on. Welcome to endless Jew hating and attacks, because all of these extremists have learned that Jews are subhumans and non deserving of the right to life ]


More than three weeks after that blackest Shabbat in our Israeli history, we remain, unsurprisingly, a nation deep in shock.

Shocked at the unrestrained murderous savagery that thousands of our neighbors unleashed upon us — the hysterical exultation with which they ripped away 1,400 lives in ways many of us still will not bring ourselves to watch.

Shocked that we allowed it to happen — that we were so devastatingly complacent, misguided, delusional; so convinced that everything they were showing and telling us about how they were going to murder us was untrue. That our political leaders so misjudged and underestimated the depth of their hatred, and their capacity to turn it into action. That our military chiefs were so unconscionably unconcerned, so distracted.

Shocked at ourselves, too, in any and every field — emphatically including journalism — where a greater capacity to look our enemies in the eye, and internalize what they had in mind for us, might, just might, have helped shift the national mindset toward thwarting this unprecedented catastrophe.

But the shock is also expanding, now, to horror, disappointment and fury at the shift outside Israel — from brief, initial empathy for all those whose lives were shot and burned and butchered away, for their bereft and broken families and for the innocent snatched away into Hamas’s underground hellholes, to a rising global effort to deprive us of the right to ensure it will not happen again. A rising global effort propelled by Israel-haters and antisemites, assisted by falsehoods and misrepresentations everywhere from TikTok to supposedly responsible media, and inflated by fools, to try to halt our military response, or limit and undermine it. Basically, to tell us that what happened on October 7, if it happened, was terrible, but we need to get over it. Subverting “Never Again,” and telling us instead, well, yes, Almost Certainly Again.

Shock at the October 7 catastrophe gives way to horror and fury at global immorality

Brief empathy over the Oct. 7 catastrophe is shifting to a global effort, propelled by Israel-haters and antisemites, to deprive us of the right to ensure it will not happen again

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

Part 2

We watch, from the midst of a war imposed upon us in the most monstrous circumstances, the growing refusal abroad to maintain any kind of intellectual honesty and morality about what happened and is happening — to distinguish between victims and aggressors, to understand that Israelis were massacred in our homes by members of an Islamist death cult and that if the killers are not prevented from doing so, they will be back, stronger and more inhumane. And that if noncombatant Gazans have been dragged into the bloodshed, that is despite the IDF seeking to minimize the harm to civilians and because Hamas is abusing them to try to survive — abusing them as “human shields” in the schools, mosques, hospitals and homes of Gaza, human shields for insistent inhumanity. (Hundreds of the killers fled from massacring Israelis to safety beneath Gaza City’s Shifa Hospital, the IDF Spokesman said on Friday.)

As I have written before, Israel is fighting not in retaliation or out of revenge, but in order to ensure that Gaza’s terror-government, which seized power after Israel withdrew from the Strip in 2005, cannot survive to repeat its barbarism; to deter our other more powerful enemies; and to restore Israelis’ faith that we can live here in something close to safety.

Our shock is spreading, too, to include fears for the well-being of those overseas who stand up for Israel and for Israel’s obligation to protect its people in the face of those who aim to wipe us out. Thunderstruck by the soaring hostility to Jews evidenced online, at anti-Israel protests, on university campuses and beyond, we worry for Jews worldwide, their own security undermined in a conflict resonating globally, in which defenders of Israel are being denounced and deterred.

And, finally, the shock at where we find ourselves is moving to encompass heart-stopping concern for our uniformed relatives and friends who fought so valiantly when belatedly alerted to the disaster that was unfolding in the south on October 7, and who are now entering Gaza in growing numbers to try to defang Hamas. We fear for their safety as they move to tackle these exultant killers in their lairs.

Even now, after everything that happened on October 7, we worry that our soldiers, and their commanders, may still underestimate the depths to which our enemies will sink, the methods they will employ, the fresh horrors they will seek to unleash, in their unstinting, obsessive effort to take Israeli and Jewish lives.

And still, amid the widening shock and horror and anger and worry, we know that we must prevail. Facing an enemy that glories in death, the people and nation of Israel insist on life.

Shock at the October 7 catastrophe gives way to horror and fury at global immorality

Brief empathy over the Oct. 7 catastrophe is shifting to a global effort, propelled by Israel-haters and antisemites, to deprive us of the right to ensure it will not happen again

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ How long before Universities, or cities, or countries, will put a stop to these attack on Jews? Some are doing it. Decades of allowing anti Israel attacks on Jews. The time has come to pass laws]​

​

Zoe Bernstein, the president of the group 'Cornellians For Israel', told the Post about the increasingly hostile campus environment leading up to the threat.​

By DANIELLE GREYMAN-KENNARDOCTOBER 30, 2023 02:22Updated: OCTOBER 30, 2023 10:20

Cornell Jewish students threatened on university forum.(photo credit: screenshot)

Jewish students at Cornell University in the United States were exposed to violent death threats on the university’s discussion forum; many of the messages called for sexual violence against the Jewish women. One such message has led to a police presence on the campus, as a currently unknown forum user has threatened to "shoot up" the building containing Jewish resources.

“if you see a jewish ‘person’ on campus, follow them home and slit their throats. rats need to be elimination from Cornell [sic]” one message on the forum read.

Another post said “the genocidal fascist zionist regime will be destroyed. rape and kill all the jew women, before they birth more jewish hitlers. jews are excrement on the face of the earth. no jew civilian is innocent of genocide [sic].”


(full article online)

‘Gonna shoot up’: Cornell University’s Jewish students on lockdown

Zoe Bernstein, the president of the group 'Cornellians For Israel', told the Post about the increasingly hostile campus environment leading up to the threat.

www.jpost.com