Israel's War Against Hamas - Updates

[Coyote]

Oh. Admittedly, that went better than I expected it to. Let's go over this part, then, with the caveat that while I am sufficiently knowledgeable on the conflict in general, and while I'm well-read, specifically, on legal and historical documentation, I am not a military expert. If anyone here wanted to jump in with that piece, that would be welcomed.

Here is a list of specifics action items. Let's see if we can agree on where the line is, legally, morally, or both:

• Hamas may not use indiscriminate weapons which fail to target a specific military objective.
• Hamas must ensure the distribution of humanitarian aide to its civilian population.
• Hamas must not acquire humanitarian aide meant for its civilian population to re-supply its war efforts.
• Hamas must not use humanitarian aide as a means of acquiring wealth to fund its war efforts.
• Hamas must not restrict the voluntary movement of its civilian population.
• Hamas must not place war materials (munitions, personnel, intelligence) in civilian or protected infrastructure.
• Hamas must not hold civilians hostage.
• Hamas must treat all prisoners of war humanely and provide the necessities of life.
• Hamas must not commit torture.

That is a lot!

To simplify it, why include Hamas? Hamas is a terrorist organization with no more governmental legitimacy than ISIS. There is zero indication at this time that it will alter that given its actions towards the people it claims to be “fighting for” and the massacre it perpetrated on innocent Israeli civilians. It won’t honor any agreements. It has to be eradicated. If we replace Hamas with another governmental entity, then that would work better.


Gaza itself is also not a sovereign nation unlike Israel and Egypt.

• Egypt must allow the entry of humanitarian aide into Gaza.
• Egypt must permit foreign third-party nationals to traverse Egypt and return home.

Agree.

• Egypt must allow refugees to temporarily take up refuge in Egypt for the duration of the active conflict. Egypt must facilitate humanitarian aide and necessities of life to the refugees until they can return home.

Why? If Egypt must do this, then why not Israel? Why is all the burden on Egypt? What if “until” becomes indefinite? Deja’s vous. That is a very real possibility given Israel’s current extremist government.

• Israel must not prevent the voluntary movement of Gaza's civilians, including their entry into Egypt, or exit by sea.

Israel must not prevent their return to Gaza.

• Israel must not target civilians.
• Israel must not target protected objectives or purely civilian infrastructure.
• Israel may target military objectives, even when it can be reasonably foreseen that civilians will suffer incidental harm.
• Israel may target military objectives embedded in civilian infrastructure, provided adequate warning is given to civilians to minimize incidental harm.
• Israel may target protected objectives if they are used for military purposes, provided adequate warning is given to civilians and adequate time between warning and attack to allow evacuation.
• Israel must ensure each operation which may cause incidental harm to civilians is proportionate to the achievement of the military objective.
• Israel must provide warning of impending targets and objectives. Israel must inform civilians and protected persons of safe corridors of egress and safe zones of refuge. Israel must not target civilians accessing these safe zones. Israel may target military objectives adjacent to these safe zones, even when it can reasonably be foreseen that civilians will suffer incidental harm.
• The presence of civilians or protected persons does not obligate Israel to refrain from obtaining its military objectives, providing the principles of proportionality and warning are observed.

Reasonable. Add that Israel has an obligation to do all it can to minimize civilian casualties (this would apply to any nation at war).

Israel also must allow the entry of humanitarian aid.

• Israel is not obligated to provide Gaza with materials, goods, or services, or necessities of life.
• Israel must not prevent access to necessities of life.
• Israel is obligated to prevent, to the extent possible in keeping with other principles, access to materials, personnel, and intelligence, which contribute to continued war efforts perpetrated by the government of Gaza, terrorist organizations, jihadis, and others which endanger the citizens of Israel.
• Israel must not deliberately create conditions intended to starve the civilian population.

Agree

• Israel may not prevent the return of temporary refugees to usual places of residence after the resolution of the conflict through peace treaties and other agreements.

Disagree with the “after the resolution etc” part. That has become a way of indefinitely or permanently exiling a population and/or replacing it.

There is probably more that I've missed. Please feel free to add as necessary. We probably agree on many of these, if not most. Did you want to take a few that you either entirely disagree with and discuss? Or did you want to re-word some?

The other big question that comes to mind is how to enforce violations. But that might have to have its own space.

Your play.

I have to think about this some more as well as enforcement…

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ And the Oscar and BAFTA go to..........]

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Failzero]

Today will be pivotal , and expose Israel’s ability to take and hold 1/4 of Gaza with Refocus on staging Surrounding Gaza City .

 

[Shusha]

That is a lot!

Right?! It is perhaps my shield against memes and tweets and other ridiculously short-form chants which purport to encapsulate all. the. things.

To simplify it, why include Hamas? Hamas is a terrorist organization with no more governmental legitimacy than ISIS. There is zero indication at this time that it will alter that given its actions towards the people it claims to be “fighting for” and the massacre it perpetrated on innocent Israeli civilians. It won’t honor any agreements. It has to be eradicated. If we replace Hamas with another governmental entity, then that would work better.

We could not possibly agree more. (And also this is why I enjoy having these discussions with you. You hit the heart of it. Bullseye.) I will respond to this in a separate post, as I think it is important to compartmentalize this piece of it. I'm going to snip a few other sections of your response to add to this fork in the road as well.

Why? If Egypt must do this, then why not Israel?

Well, some of the residents of Gaza just perpetrated an unspeakable atrocity on innocents in Israel. The government of Israel is responsible for the safety of those innocents. I am loathe to compare the Shoah to anything, but wow! this is one hell of a first attempt to create an equivalence, in intent, if not in other measurements. Why would a belligerent entity be entitled to protection in a State it is currently in conflict with? Would you demand this of any other nation? Also, while I wouldn't normally point this out myself, I would fully expect you to make the argument that this is a "safety on both sides" issue. Why would the people of Gaza assume that Israel would expend precious resources that they are obligated to use to protect their own citizens, to ensure the safety of foreign belligerents? (Understand that by "belligerents" I don't mean to imply that ALL Gazans are [insert appropriate descriptive word here], but that rigorous screening of refugees isn't possible in the midst of active conflict. Again, resources.) Egypt is not at war with Gaza, right?

Why is all the burden on Egypt?

This is a MUCH MUCH bigger conversation about refugees and migration. Way too much to go into here. The short answer is that refugees flow through safe passages. Current international humanitarian law considers that while third party nations are not ultimately responsible for the welfare of refugees, preventing safe passage to refugees is kinda frowned upon. No?

What if “until” becomes indefinite? Deja’s vous.

Yes. Deja vu. The "until" has become indefinite, in many places, and in many times. Including in this conflict. It's actually not the end of the world. Sometimes it is actually beneficial, in the long run. Sometimes compromises and peace treaties need to be made. Sometimes people return after a long sojourn. My only point here is that it is not black and white what is best for everyone, in every case, in every time. We can talk more about this.

Reasonable. Add that Israel has an obligation to do all it can to minimize civilian casualties (this would apply to any nation at war).

Sure. I think I covered that with proportionality, but we can add something like this and I won't be mad.

Israel also must allow the entry of humanitarian aid.

I think I covered that. Israel is not obligated to allow aide through Israel. Israel must not prevent entry of aide through Egypt.

 

[Shusha]

To simplify it, why include Hamas? Hamas is a terrorist organization with no more governmental legitimacy than ISIS. There is zero indication at this time that it will alter that given its actions towards the people it claims to be “fighting for” and the massacre it perpetrated on innocent Israeli civilians. It won’t honor any agreements. It has to be eradicated. If we replace Hamas with another governmental entity, then that would work better.

Gaza itself is also not a sovereign nation unlike Israel and Egypt.

Disagree with the “after the resolution etc” part.

I have to think about this some more as well as enforcement…

(Sidenote: Honestly, after the events of October 7, I think you are being generous in the EXTREME to call Hamas a terrorist organization. There are organizations who use vile and abhorrent tactics for political upset. There are organizations that use terrorism as a tool to political ends that might be considered appropriate in their end goal, if not in the means to that end. This is not that. This is both an end goal and a means to that end that is the incarnation of unspeakable evil. I mean, if we can not agree that throwing babies into ovens and baking them alive is not the lowest common denominator of evil, well ... bring on another flood, we'd deserve it.)

Moving on ...

Right. So this is the real problem. Gaza (or the Gaza part of Palestine**) is in the never-never land. There is a claim to self-determination, but no practical movement towards real, lasting self-determination. On the one hand, Hamas is the governing organization of Gaza, in all practical and relevant ways. They do not have international, legal recognition of such, and for good and obvious reasons, not the least of which is failure to its obligations to protect its citizens and put their welfare above all else. I think we agree on this.

The reason I bring up resolutions and peace treaties is that peace requires a mutual, honest understanding between two representative governments of the people in question.

The question for us to resolve (between us anyway, as two half-way sane people having this discussion) is what to DO with that situation. If I take on the role of Israel, and you take on the role of the people of Gaza, what do you think we could come up with as a solution?

We seem to agree that Hamas HAS to be dismantled. What next, then? Is it better - long run - for refugees to be returned from safety to Gaza in chaos and a vacuum? Is it better - long run - for refugees to be returned to some sort of Israeli military or sovereign oversight? Is it better - long run - to prolong the exile in hopes that eventually the other Arab states will absorb their cousins? Is it better - long run - for the international community to intervene and create some sort of temporary protectorate government? Is it better - long run - for Egypt and Jordan to exert sovereignty over territory again? Is better - long run - for Israel to assert its one state solution?

I see why people just post tweets and memes. Because this is a LOT.

**I am explicitly differentiating Gaza and "West Bank" Palestine. I do think these are two separate conflicts at this time. That may change in the future, but there is little to tie them together of practical use just now.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is a patallel between Russia and Israel now.

Col. Kemp is a paid Israeli stooge.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrihU7cAEJloWYNTiYPxQt.;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzYEdnRpZANMT0NVSTExNENfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1698853212/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.gatestoneinstitute.org%2fbiography%2fRichard%2bKemp/RK=2/RS=8F_sf5aqbNtVGf1S0EeNySdt9Co-

Colonel Richard Kemp, a Distinguished Senior Fellow at the Gatestone Institute,

Read all of Israeli talking points here.

Jew-Hate at American Universities

[The Amcha] report paints a stark picture of an increasing, intensifying and carefully coordinated campaign of attacks on Jewish identity at over 60% of the colleges and universities that are popular with Jews, including 2,000 incidents intended to harm

www.gatestoneinstitute.org

Israel under Fire and The West's Pusillanimous Response

Neither Ukraine nor Israel has any territorial ambitions or aggressive intent against their attackers — both Ukraine and Israel are fighting purely defensive wars to protect their civilian populations. There is another common factor. Islamic Jihad in

www.gatestoneinstitute.org

 

[Ringo]

The Jews are going to evict 2,000,000 Palestinians to Egypt and take their land.

You know, the question of who let Hamas get in so easily is closed. I didn't believe to the last that Israel would kill a thousand of its own for any purpose, but apparently it did. Stinking nits.

 

[rosends]

https://www.inss.org.il/publication/israel-duties/

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ A 1964 Arafat, Russian invention alleges that the invented people did not commit a massacre. And the Arabs did not start riots against Jews, against a possible rebuilding of the Jewish Nation in 1920. And no 1948 war against Israel, and all the others. 1002 Arabian Nights ]

MEMRI has videos of a number of prominent Palestinians and Muslims denying that Hamas attacked civilians on October 7.




"On October 7, Hamas targeted military personnel only. All the [Israeli] civilians who were captured or harmed – it was not done by the Hamas fighters, but rather by the civilian masses who dashed when the border wall collapsed, and were utterly ecstatic about returning to the land of their forefathers. Hamas did not target a single [Israeli] civilian."

And media darling Hanan Ashrawi:




"Even the Europeans swallowed all those lies at the beginning of the incursion, in which they accused the Palestinians of horrible things, without evidence, without substantiation, without any kind of proof, and then it became actual fact. We have to walk back the women being raped, or children being beheaded, or all that nonsense, doctored pictures, and so on. What about the Anglican hospital? Immediately the Israelis said, 'We [Palestinians] bombed ourselves' …[with] the Palestinian rocket. Biden just blindly parrots of the things he hears from the Israelis. And I said this the Israelis have a spin machine. And they are good at it, I must say, because they spend billions on it."

This is the 21st century's Holocaust denial.

Palestinians, including Hanan Ashrawi, engage in 7/10 denial

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ The New York Times, the paper of hatred of Jews and Israel since about 100 years ago. Nothing has changed ]

Here's how the New York Times reported on the attack on Jabalya yesterday:

The two sides gave conflicting accounts of a deadly Israeli airstrike in the Jabaliya community north of Gaza City, site of a long-established and densely populated refugee camp, where photographs taken on Tuesday showed at least one large blast crater that was not present in earlier satellite images, and significant damage to buildings.

The Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry said that the strike had killed and wounded hundreds of people. Dr. Marwan Sultan, medical director of the nearby Indonesian Hospital, said there were dozens dead and his facility had received hundreds of injured patients. The figures could not be verified.

The Israeli military said the strike had killed a Hamas commander who was a key plotter of the Oct. 7 assault on Israel that the Israeli authorities say killed more than 1,400 people and captured more than 200 hostages.

The commander, Ibrahim Biari, was actively directing attacks against Israeli targets from a “vast underground tunnel complex,” Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, a spokesman for the Israeli military, said in a late-night briefing. He said that in Israel’s estimation, “dozens” of Hamas combatants were killed along with him when the underground complex imploded.

Hamas denied that any of its commanders were in the area of the strike.

So even-handed!

According to Israel, a major military target was attacked. In the photo you can see the airstrikes appear to be along a path that follows the "alleged" tunnels underneath the camp - which is known as a Hamas stronghold. They identified a specific person and verified his death. They are confident enough that he was killed that they are saying it definitively and publicly. If he pops up in a video, Israel's entire credibility is lost.

According to Hamas, Israel just decided to murder hundreds of civilians for no reason and there were no Hamas members there.

The photo above shows that the craters are all in the street, which is where tunnels would generally be. If Israel wanted to murder civilians in Jabaliya, why aim at the street? And I'm no military forensics expert, but the craters indicate that there was an empty space fairly deep underneath the ground which collapsed.

Only one narrative makes sense. The other is obvious propaganda, although it is likely that dozens of civilians did die.

Like any country at war, Israel is not going to reveal its intelligence. It is not going to give details of its strategy, tactics or methods. But only one story makes any sense, and the track record of Israeli statements like this is far better than that of Hamas.

Beyond that, Israel has made its military goals clear: it intends to destroy Hamas. Hamas' cynical use of human shields to protect its tunnels is the only war crime here, and Israel has given redicents weeks to evacuate. It has done everything properly under international law, and it is not obligated to wait indefinitely to target Hamas military targets. This is the most salient fact that the media consistently ignores.

Giving equal weight to both sides, and ignoring the international law of one side, isn't journalism - it is a betrayal of informing the readers of the truth.

"Conflicting claims" - NYT gives equal weight between rapists and a professional army

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

The BBC’s anti-Israel bias is evident, as it frequently presents one-sided narratives and disseminates misinformation about Israel and its ongoing events.

This week, the BBC significantly shortened an interview with Israeli President Isaac Herzog, airing only six out of 28 minutes.

The censored parts included references to the BBC’s reluctance to officially categorize Hamas as a terrorist organization and Herzog’s emotional response to the Hamas terrorist massacre on Oct. 7, where about 1400 Israelis were butchered and over 240 kidnapped.

Herzog’s spokesperson, Naor Ihia, raised concerns about the interview’s conduct and shared clips the BBC chose not to air.

WATCH: BBC Exposes Bias, Censors Interview With Herzog | United with Israel

Herzog's spokesperson, Naor Ihia, raised concerns about the interview's conduct and shared clips the BBC chose not to air.

unitedwithisrael.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ Christianity and Islam have allowed the prohibition of the right of Jews to have their Nation on their Ancient homeland. Christianity gave birth to Naziism and Islam embraced Naziism just as it embraced superiority over Jews in the 7th Century.

Those who do not know, or refuse to see where the Israel/Palestine war comes from, will continue to not see that the Arab leaders, and Muslim ones, cannot ever accept Israel to exist. Is there going to be a time in the future when the teaching of all of these can be done, or is this it? The idea that Jews have no rights and Israel does not have the right to exist will continue for how long? Forever?

People, like this young man, have no idea what they are embracing. They know no history, nothing. Same as Jews who are Pro Palestine, do not understand what they are doing for total lack of knowledge, and care, about History, at all .

Which is exactly why Israel and Jews WILL stay strong]

 

[Sixties Fan]

During the interview, Awwad told viewers that the conflict with Israel goes further back than Hamas’ October 7 terrorist attack, stating that “One of the main misconceptions is that this is something that started on oct 7, when in fact this started in 1948, with the ethnic cleansing of over 700,000 Palestinians from their ancestral lands.”

With her statement, Awwad made clear to the public that in her opinion, the root of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not any Israeli government policy, but the very existence of the Jewish State.

This remarkable admission, which was not challenged by CP24’s interviewer, demonstrates in no uncertain terms that despite claims often made to the contrary, the true hostility to Israel among many anti-Israel activists will not be satisfied by anything less than the destruction of Israel in its entirety.

Awwad’s allegations are not only hateful in nature, by denying the Jewish People their fundamental right to self-determination in their historical homeland, but entirely historical revisionist in nature

In 1948, after Israel declared its independence, its Arab neighbours soon declared war on the newly reborn country, seeking to invade and destroy it. Consequently, many Arab leaders, both within Israel and outside, actively encouraged – or threatened – the country’s Arabs to leave, “lest their inhabitants ‘treacherously’ acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments.”

Awwad continued her diatribe by alleging that “the violence and ethnic cleansing directed at the Palestinians at the hands of the state of Israel has not ended, and has been ongoing.”

This brazen claim, which once again went unchallenged by her interviewer, is little more than a drive-by slander by Awwad, and cannot stand up to event the most fundamental scrutiny.

The population of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and Judea & Samaria (often called the “West Bank” by news media outlets) has grown to roughly five million people, representing an enormous 60 percent jump from 1997, when the population was estimated to be about 2.9 million people.

No serious observer, in the face of such overwhelming and definite statistics, could reasonably claim that anything resembling “ethnic cleansing” has taken place to the Palestinians.

To see what real ethnic cleansing looks like, one only need look at Jews from Arab lands, who prior to 1948 numbered some 800,000. Thanks to state-sponsored persecution, pogroms and threats, today that number has shrunk by roughly 98 percent.

CP24 also interviewed Dalia Awwad on October 25 when the Palestinian Youth Movement held a ‘Glory To Our Martyrs’ vigil at Queens Park, where she not only justified the murder of 1,400 innocent civilians by Hamas terrorists but also falsely accused the Jewish state of genocide, settler-colonialism, and ethnic cleansing.

The organization represented by Awwad, the Palestinian Youth Movement, has long been documented for spreading hateful antisemitism, and has been unrepentant about its view that Israel has no right to exist.

In an anti-Israel rally in Montreal earlier in 2023, a representative from the group claimed that Zionism – the Jewish People’s movement of self-determination – was a “slow-moving genocide,” and that “we must fight Zionism here.”

In promotional materials for a Vancouver rally, the group made reference to “75 years of Zionist occupation in Palestine,” an explicit statement delegitimizing Israel’s existence.

Even a cursory search of the Palestinian Youth Movement on CP24’s part would have unveiled an organization that – like the terrorist group Hamas – denies Israel’s right to exist, making Awwad’s false statements entirely unsurprising.

Regardless of Awwad’s promotion of anti-Israel disinformation during her interview, it was the failure of her interviewer to challenge any of her allegations that represented the true violation of journalistic standards.


[Sign the petition online)

https://honestreporting.ca/petitions/cp24-interviews-anti-israel-activist-accusing-country-of-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians/?utm_source=Honest+Reporting+Canada&utm_campaign=c446c23337-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_01_01_06_22_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-c2395b4f14-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

 

[Sixties Fan]

On October 30, 2023, CBC News published a Reuters article entitled “Israeli soldier freed in Gaza; Hamas releases video of 3 women still held hostage“, which misled readers into believing that the Israeli soldier was freed by Hamas terrorists.

The lead paragraph also said, “An Israeli soldier was freed from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip during the military’s ground operation, the military said on Monday.”

The photo caption in the article also read, “Israeli soldier Ori Megidish, centre, is seen in this handout picture obtained by Reuters on Monday, after the Israeli army said she was freed from Hamas during a ground operation.”

In truth, Israeli soldier Ori Megidish was rescued by Israeli forces during a ground operation in the Gaza Strip and was not ‘released’ or ‘freed’ by Hamas as implied by the article.

After bringing this to the attention of the CBC, our public broadcaster amended and replaced their original report with an Associated Press article which prominently mentions that Israeli forces rescued an Israeli soldier who was a hostage and being held captive by Hamas.

We thank CBC News for taking corrective action.

https://honestreporting.ca/hrc-prompts-cbc-news-to-amend-article-clarifying-israeli-soldier-was-rescued-by-the-idf/?utm_source=Honest+Reporting+Canada&utm_campaign=c446c23337-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_01_01_06_22_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-c2395b4f14-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

 

[Sixties Fan]

A video recorded in a Gaza hospital and initially shared by CNN shows a woman sitting beside what seems to be the body of a person reportedly killed in an Israeli airstrike.

However, the footage appears to depict the body moving its head and shifting, leading to questions about its authenticity.

The Israeli government has pointed out this video as evidence that the Gaza Ministry of Health is under Hamas control and has questioned the accuracy of casualty figures reported by the Hamas-run Health Ministry, which claims over 10,000 deaths in the ongoing conflict. This raises concerns about the true number of casualties.

Reminder:
The Gaza Ministry of Health=Hamas
Bodies can’t move their heads. pic.twitter.com/CLoLksrOYq
— Israel ישראל (@Israel) October 30, 2023

WATCH: ‘Deceased’ Gazan Resident Discovered Moving in Body Bag | United with Israel

A video from a Gaza hospital, shared by CNN, shows a woman beside a body that appears to move despite being a reported victim of an Israeli airstrike.

unitedwithisrael.org