Zone1 Jews: Do you blame Jesus for all the persecution our people have suffered?

[ReinyDays]

Egypt, Persia, Babylon all hated on the Jews long before Jesus was born ... and the Bible says it's because of the Jews' disobedience ... this angered God and He punished the Jews ...

... and God is still angry with the Jews ... what a heavy burden being God's favorite people ...

 

[surada]

Tell us, how is the Messiah supposed to be killed?

Give me chapter and verse.

 

[surada]

Egypt, Persia, Babylon all hated on the Jews long before Jesus was born ... and the Bible says it's because of the Jews' disobedience ... this angered God and He punished the Jews ...

... and God is still angry with the Jews ... what a heavy burden being God's favorite people ...

Jews lived in Egypt, Persia, Rome and Syria long before the birth of Christ.

 

[surada]

Egypt, Persia, Babylon all hated on the Jews long before Jesus was born ... and the Bible says it's because of the Jews' disobedience ... this angered God and He punished the Jews ...

... and God is still angry with the Jews ... what a heavy burden being God's favorite people ...

Horseshit.

 

[Votto]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

Jesus knew the Hebrew nation would reject him, just like God told Moses his people would reject him in Deuteronomy 31:16.

And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.

Jesus knew that most would reject him, including the Jews.

Luke 21:17 You will be hated by all for my name’s sake.

And just like Jesus, when he sent prophets to warn them the people did not react well to them, as they oppressed and murdered many of them for warning them of the result of their sinful ways.

Luke 11:50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

Does this make Jews evil? No, it just makes them human. Mankind is extremely sinful, and left to their ways would devolve into Sodom or how society was in the days of Noah. Had it not been for God's intervention with the flood, for example, humanity would have destroyed itself.

Unfortunately, man tries to replace God with human government.

1 Samuel 8 gives us insight into how the Jewish people finally distanced themselves from God as they demanded a human king. God told Samuel that they were rejecting him, so he gave them a warning as to the many abuses that would happen if they persisted in their demands. God ended it by saying that he would give them what they wanted after hearing the warnings that went with it, and so they chose it anyway despite God warning them that when they cried to him about the abuses, he would not hear them.

8 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[a] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[b] us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”

The Hebrew kingdom fell apart about 3 kings later, devolving into debauchery with other kingdoms eventually swallowing them up, kingdoms with human kings they desired to be like. Then they later ended up in the ovens of Nazi Germany. But at the end of the day, God never turns his back on his people forever, as it was prophesied they would regain their nation back as they did in the 1940's. And to think, God used the horrible experience of Nazi Germany to do it as he turned something evil into something good.

Mankind was never created to be king over others, as abuses due to his sin nature will surely follow. In fact, when Jesus performed the miracle of the loaves and fish, they people wanted to make him an earthy king.

John 6:15
Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

So, what was wrong with them making him their king? Was he not the King of the Jews as Christians believe today? Sure he was, but he was not wanting to be an earthly king among other earthly kings as his kingdom was not of the sinful earthly kingdoms to be forced down everyone's throat. He had another plan. But it confused his disciples at the time. Why would he not want to be their king and save everyone? God could just have easily struck everyone dead during the time of Moses when they rejected him as their king, all to "save" them, but he did not. God gave us the ability to choose, just as Moses told the people to choose blessing or cursing

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Why does God demand free will? It is because he is a God of love.

1 John 4:7-8 7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

A loving relationship demand that both parties are free to reject or embrace the other. In fact, faith is tied in with love as faith is a natural byproduct of love. For you see, Adam and Eve knew God existed as he walked and talked with them in the Garden, but they lost faith anyway and partook of the apple. The Hebrew people knew that God existed as they saw the miracles of the waters part and Manna coming down from heaven and the fiery desplay on Mt. Sinia, but they built a golden calf and worshiped it instead as they lost faith as well

So as we see, God is not after proving he exists, rather, he is after the heart which produces faith.


In Isaiah 41:8, God speaks to Israel, calling them “descendants of Abraham my friend.” Abraham’s friendship with God is also mentioned by King Jehoshaphat in 2 Chronicles 20:7 and by the apostle James in James 2:23. Thus Abraham was accorded the high honor of being called a “friend of God.”

Literally, Isaiah 41:8 could be translated as “Abraham, who loved Me.” Abraham showed his love for God through his faith accompanied by obedience (Genesis 12:1, 4; 15:6). He was more than an acquaintance of God and more than a companion. He was a friend of God.

We naturally place our faith in those we love.

And we are no different than Abraham as we too have this choice to make. All can be grafted into the family of God, like Rahab at Jericho who was in the lineage to Christ.

But at the end of the day, we can play the blame game all we want for the crucifixion of Jesus as we see many blame their parents for all their problems, or blame soceity, or blame the government, etc. However, Jesus would say this


John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Notice how both the religious Jewish leaders and the Romans BOTH nailed him to the cross. It was a group effort.


Yea, we all did that to him.

 

[Sixties Fan]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

Jesus did not damn the Jewish people, his people.

Paul of Tarsus ,who founded Christianity, wrote the letter to his followers telling them that the Jews killed Jesus therefore depriving them of Salvation. Paul never met Jesus, came to Jerusalem decades after Jesus died.

That saying, plus other things he wrote made some of those who became Christians to turn against the Jews.


It was whoever wrote John's book the one who showed more anger against the Jews, not shown in previous books, about 100 years after Jesus had died.

The Roman Empire fell, about 200 years later, and all of those books were chosen by those in Rome who took over, they were Christians by then.

There are Christians who choose to follow John's anger and hatred for the Jews and damn them. It got to the point when after the Romans took over when someone damned all the Jews for all eternity.


The waiting for Jesus to return and bring peace, and him not returning, makes some Christians turn against the Jews every now and then.


NOTHING in the NT is new. It is all borrowed from Jewish writings, writings even Jesus and those in his time would have been aware of, if they followed the religion. So, nothing which is attributed as being original by Jesus was original.

Those who wrote the books in NT were literate, and had read the Hebrew Scriptures, which is where all the stories and knowledge about how the Jewish Messiah would return came from, and those....Mark, Matthew, Luke and John borrowed from those stories. Including Hillel's saying which is said in a different way.

I do not know that Jews were assaulted by Christians while the Romans were in charge. I have not found one source for that. I think it really began when Rome fell and Christianity took over, the books were put together and started being distributed throughout Christian churches, etc.

The Visigoth, Germans, and others took over conquered others and also spread their ideas against the Jews. When they conquered some of Spain they eventually changed how the Spaniards dealt with the Jews to the point that the Inquisition eventually happened.


Jews would be attacked, forced to convert, expelled, etc.


Actual pogroms would happen later:

Most of the original pogroms took place in an area that became known as the Pale of Settlement, a territory the Russian Empire acquired between 1791–1835. The Russian government forbade its new Jewish subjects from settling in Russian territory outside the Pale of Settlement, an area that included parts of present-day Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova and Poland.

What Were Pogroms? | My Jewish Learning

The word pogrom comes from a Russian word meaning “to destroy, to wreak havoc, to demolish violently.” The term was ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

So, the story of a would be Jewish Messiah, out of many, was taken by an ex Jew and turned into a new ideology and turned into a new religion during the time of the Roman conquest of the Jewish homeland.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Egypt, Persia, Babylon all hated on the Jews long before Jesus was born ... and the Bible says it's because of the Jews' disobedience ... this angered God and He punished the Jews ...

... and God is still angry with the Jews ... what a heavy burden being God's favorite people ...

It is not G-D who has chosen the Jews, it is the Jews who have chosen that G-D, as their only G-D at a time when all other cults, religions had many gods.

Abraham abandoned that belief and followed the G-D he chose to follow. ONE, only one. That is what Judaism is about.

The Greek and Roman gods, and all other people's gods must have been very angry with THEM, your own ancestors, to allow the Greek, or Romans, or Byzantine, etc to take over their land and make THEM suffer. Would you not say?


Seems to me that all of those here, whose ancestors abandoned their gods, have been punished since then by their anger at being abandoned by a NON god, just a human being who lived and died like any other human being.

 

[Votto]

Jesus did not damn the Jewish people, his people.

Paul of Tarsus ,who founded Christianity, wrote the letter to his followers telling them that the Jews killed Jesus therefore depriving them of Salvation. Paul never met Jesus, came to Jerusalem decades after Jesus died.

That saying, plus other things he wrote made some of those who became Christians to turn against the Jews.


It was whoever wrote John's book the one who showed more anger against the Jews, not shown in previous books, about 100 years after Jesus had died.

The Roman Empire fell, about 200 years later, and all of those books were chosen by those in Rome who took over, they were Christians by then.

There are Christians who choose to follow John's anger and hatred for the Jews and damn them. It got to the point when after the Romans took over when someone damned all the Jews for all eternity.


The waiting for Jesus to return and bring peace, and him not returning, makes some Christians turn against the Jews every now and then.


NOTHING in the NT is new. It is all borrowed from Jewish writings, writings even Jesus and those in his time would have been aware of, if they followed the religion. So, nothing which is attributed as being original by Jesus was original.

Those who wrote the books in NT were literate, and had read the Hebrew Scriptures, which is where all the stories and knowledge about how the Jewish Messiah would return came from, and those....Mark, Matthew, Luke and John borrowed from those stories. Including Hillel's saying which is said in a different way.

I do not know that Jews were assaulted by Christians while the Romans were in charge. I have not found one source for that. I think it really began when Rome fell and Christianity took over, the books were put together and started being distributed throughout Christian churches, etc.

The Visigoth, Germans, and others took over conquered others and also spread their ideas against the Jews. When they conquered some of Spain they eventually changed how the Spaniards dealt with the Jews to the point that the Inquisition eventually happened.


Jews would be attacked, forced to convert, expelled, etc.


Actual pogroms would happen later:

Most of the original pogroms took place in an area that became known as the Pale of Settlement, a territory the Russian Empire acquired between 1791–1835. The Russian government forbade its new Jewish subjects from settling in Russian territory outside the Pale of Settlement, an area that included parts of present-day Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova and Poland.

What Were Pogroms? | My Jewish Learning

The word pogrom comes from a Russian word meaning “to destroy, to wreak havoc, to demolish violently.” The term was ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

So, the story of a would be Jewish Messiah, out of many, was taken by an ex Jew and turned into a new ideology and turned into a new religion during the time of the Roman conquest of the Jewish homeland.

Paul actually persecuted and killed Christians, being an ardent Jew.

But what was the response? Jesus appeared to him and redirected his life, a true conversion.

Paul then stopped killing, even when surrounded by those who tried to kill him as did Christians during that time.

The change occurred once Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the state. The hundreds of years prior is a history of Christians being thrown to the lions for being Christians, but still inexplicably growing in numbers by leaps and bounds anyway.

Constantine, wanting political and military power, saw this and simply wanted a piece for his own selfish ambition. In fact, Constantine made Christianity the official religion of his realm despite continuing to worship the pagan gods of Rome. Constantine murdered his own wife and son for political purposes. Does this sound Christian? Granted, it is rumored he tried to convert to Christianity on his death bed, he still created a state religion enforced by sinful men who were equally focused on their own selfish ambitions with state power and not God. All would submit or die. This was never the Way as Inquisitions and Jewish persecution and Crusades soon followed, essentially all the sins tagged on Christianity we see people accuse them of to this day. It gave the faith a well deserved black eye.

The Jewish persecution was all state sponsored and for political reasons. Jesus never advocated their tactics, thus they were not really his followers.

 

[TNHarley]

Yes, Jesus fucked everything up.

 

[Votto]

Yes, Jesus fucked up everything up.

You ain't seen noth'in yet!



He is gonna blow it all up!

 

[TNHarley]

You ain't seen noth'in yet!



He is gonna blow it all up!

He is dead now

 

[Votto]

He is dead now

Do you find it strange that despite not holding a political or military post of significance, or being wealthy or politically active, he is so famous? In addition, all religions point to him as being a man of God.

As such, he is more alive today than he has ever been.

When Jesus comes back, I'll be sure and post this for all the power hungry government Leftists

 

[fncceo]

Do you blame Jesus for all the persecution our people have suffered?​

No, just his followers.

And only those of the past thousand years or so.

 

[fncceo]

Do you find it strange that despite not holding a political or military post of significance, or being wealthy or politically active, he is so famous?

Like John Lennon?

 

[Kruska]

Where were the millions of Jews? The population of Palestine never exceeded 700,000.

This figure of 5,000,000 Jews (living all over the known world around 50 AD) is just a wild guess. Since e.g there are no records available as to how many Jews lived in Egypt or e.g Syria, Cyprus and so on.
The best guesses in regards to Rome around 150 AD range from 8000-40,000.

According to Roman scripture upon Rome having literally exterminated Jews upon the second uprising (130 AD), Judea was void of Jews (an estimated 550,000 were killed not including those who starved or died due to diseases) - those who survived settled and remained in Galilee and Samaria. - which would roughly add up to your mentioned 700,000. having lived before 130AD in Judea - or Syria Palestine.

 

[TNHarley]

Do you find it strange that despite not holding a political or military post of significance, or being wealthy or politically active, he is so famous? In addition, all religions point to him as being a man of God.

As such, he is more alive today than he has ever been.

When Jesus comes back, I'll be sure and post this for all the power hungry government Leftists

He is famous because of a book. And his story is so known, because it was ripped off of earlier deities.
Doesnt the bible say he was to return within his generation?

 

[ReinyDays]

It is not G-D who has chosen the Jews, it is the Jews who have chosen that G-D, as their only G-D at a time when all other cults, religions had many gods.

Abraham abandoned that belief and followed the G-D he chose to follow. ONE, only one. That is what Judaism is about.

The Greek and Roman gods, and all other people's gods must have been very angry with THEM, your own ancestors, to allow the Greek, or Romans, or Byzantine, etc to take over their land and make THEM suffer. Would you not say?


Seems to me that all of those here, whose ancestors abandoned their gods, have been punished since then by their anger at being abandoned by a NON god, just a human being who lived and died like any other human being.

Thank you for these corrections ...

 

[surada]

He is famous because of a book. And his story is so known, because it was ripped off of earlier deities.
Doesnt the bible say he was to return within his generation?

Jesus did return after the resurrection for 10 appearances over 40 days according to scripture.

 

[ReinyDays]

Jesus did return after the resurrection for 10 appearances over 40 days according to scripture.

... and the self-same spirit lives on in all of us ...

 

[Kruska]

Jesus did return after the resurrection for 10 appearances over 40 days according to scripture.

According to a story-book written and composed entirely by Jews - who 150-200 years later referred to themselves as now being Christians. Then again modified and manipulated by the new Roman Catholic Church splitting from the Constantinople Church from 450 AD onward. And so on....