Zone1 Jews: Do you blame Jesus for all the persecution our people have suffered?

[ReinyDays]

According to a story-book written and composed entirely by Jews - who 150-200 years later referred to themselves as now being Christians. Then again modified and manipulated by the new Roman Catholic Church splitting from the Constantinople Church from 450 AD onward. And so on....

We know exactly why King Henry VIII wanted an English language Bible ... so we can judge the KJV in that context ...

... or look into your own heart ... the Bible written there too ... other cultures don't have rules about incest, it's just not done ... written into our hearts ... the Hebrews do have rules about this which kinda sorta described the Hebrews ... ewwww ... just what were they doing to that Golden Calf when Moses came down from Mt Sinai ...

 

[theHawk]

Give me chapter and verse.

Yes, give me a chapter and verse of how you think the Messiah is supposed to die.

 

[Lisa558]

Egypt, Persia, Babylon all hated on the Jews long before Jesus was born ... and the Bible says it's because of the Jews' disobedience ... this angered God and He punished the Jews ...

... and God is still angry with the Jews ... what a heavy burden being God's favorite people ...

^^^ Hey! I asked for Jews’ opinions - not for a “tolerant” person who claims to oppose bigotry to spew his disdain for the Jews.

 

[Lisa558]

Jesus did not damn the Jewish people, his people.

Paul of Tarsus ,who founded Christianity, wrote the letter to his followers telling them that the Jews killed Jesus therefore depriving them of Salvation. Paul never met Jesus, came to Jerusalem decades after Jesus died.

That saying, plus other things he wrote made some of those who became Christians to turn against the Jews.


It was whoever wrote John's book the one who showed more anger against the Jews, not shown in previous books, about 100 years after Jesus had died.

The Roman Empire fell, about 200 years later, and all of those books were chosen by those in Rome who took over, they were Christians by then.

There are Christians who choose to follow John's anger and hatred for the Jews and damn them. It got to the point when after the Romans took over when someone damned all the Jews for all eternity.


The waiting for Jesus to return and bring peace, and him not returning, makes some Christians turn against the Jews every now and then.


NOTHING in the NT is new. It is all borrowed from Jewish writings, writings even Jesus and those in his time would have been aware of, if they followed the religion. So, nothing which is attributed as being original by Jesus was original.

Those who wrote the books in NT were literate, and had read the Hebrew Scriptures, which is where all the stories and knowledge about how the Jewish Messiah would return came from, and those....Mark, Matthew, Luke and John borrowed from those stories. Including Hillel's saying which is said in a different way.

I do not know that Jews were assaulted by Christians while the Romans were in charge. I have not found one source for that. I think it really began when Rome fell and Christianity took over, the books were put together and started being distributed throughout Christian churches, etc.

The Visigoth, Germans, and others took over conquered others and also spread their ideas against the Jews. When they conquered some of Spain they eventually changed how the Spaniards dealt with the Jews to the point that the Inquisition eventually happened.


Jews would be attacked, forced to convert, expelled, etc.


Actual pogroms would happen later:

Most of the original pogroms took place in an area that became known as the Pale of Settlement, a territory the Russian Empire acquired between 1791–1835. The Russian government forbade its new Jewish subjects from settling in Russian territory outside the Pale of Settlement, an area that included parts of present-day Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova and Poland.

What Were Pogroms? | My Jewish Learning

The word pogrom comes from a Russian word meaning “to destroy, to wreak havoc, to demolish violently.” The term was ...

www.myjewishlearning.com

So, the story of a would be Jewish Messiah, out of many, was taken by an ex Jew and turned into a new ideology and turned into a new religion during the time of the Roman conquest of the Jewish homeland.

I certainly agree that Paul was the trouble-maker, and that the book of John was the worst of the four. After 100 years, the new Christians were really fed up that those stubborn Jews wouldn’t abandon Judaism, and the venom picked up.

 

[BreezeWood]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

that was a forgone conclusion ...

"Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times."

everyone knew the fate of jesus - the crime, criminals were everyone during that time and place who all had abandoned the true prescribed religion of antiquity for that of their own choosing - jesus convinced few to follow in their footsteps and those others that gave their lives for liberation theology, self determination long abandoned as well by the 4th century, c-bible.

 

[norwegen]

And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

Yea, they claimed culpability for Christ's execution, even for their children forty years later who perished in the Jewish wars.

Now they are no more. Just a page in history.

The Pharisees - what remained of them - had no temple, so retreated to the synagogues and fashioned a new Jewish cultic life, eventually evolving into the rabbinical authorities of today. For a while, they even reconstituted a Sanhedrin.

But alas, ultimately, they are gone. Jews today have nothing whatever to do with Jesus, notwithstanding any scorn that Christians who misinterpret history and the Scriptures may visit upon them.

So, life sucks. Then you die. Or make it not so sucky and return the scorn. Whatever. Just . . . why dwell . . .?

 

[ReinyDays]

^^^ Hey! I asked for Jews’ opinions - not for a “tolerant” person who claims to oppose bigotry to spew his disdain for the Jews.

Put me on ignore then ... it's white people I hate, and Jews are white ... simple ...

 

[Lisa558]

Put me on ignore then ... it's white people I hate, and Jews are white ... simple ...

So you’re racist in addition to being an antisemite?

 

[alang1216]

While I find it amusing that people argue over who an imaginary sky pixie is angry with or who he promised a strip of land to, there is actually an argument to be made that the Jews did kill Jesus. You read the Gospels, Pontius Pilate (The Roman Governor) wanted to let him go. There is even the part where he offers the angry crowd (of Jews) a choice between Barabus and Jesus, and Jesus is the one they scream to execute.

Lots of historical fiction in the NT so it needs to be read as theology not history. Jews didn't have the authority execute anyone and the reason the Romans likely viewed Jesus as a threat to them.

The other part of the problem is that Jesus offered salvation to everyone, while the Jews insisted (and still insist) that they are God's chosen People. (Which will tick off everyone who really, really needs to believe that God loves them the bestest!)

I think that came from the time when Jews were pagans and believed their covenant was with one of many gods.

Works on the assumption Jesus ever existed. I personally don't think he did, or if he did, he was a composite of several attempted reformers of Judaism who existed in the first century CE. This is why the biographical details are all over the map.

Jesus almost certainly existed. If Christians or Jews invented him they would have done a very different job.

 

[Lisa558]

Lots of historical fiction in the NT so it needs to be read as theology not history. Jews didn't have the authority execute anyone and the reason the Romans likely viewed Jesus as a threat to them.


I think that came from the time when Jews were pagans and believed their covenant was with one of many gods.


Jesus almost certainly existed. If Christians or Jews invented him they would have done a very different job.

The only time I ever hear mention of Chosen People is when an antisemite brings it up. I went through years of Hebrew School, Sunday School, and talks around the dinner table, and never once was this term mentioned. Never heard it brought up in my Jewish friends’ homes, either.

 

[Kruska]

We know exactly why King Henry VIII wanted an English language Bible ... so we can judge the KJV in that context ...

... or look into your own heart ... the Bible written there too ... other cultures don't have rules about incest, it's just not done ... written into our hearts ... the Hebrews do have rules about this which kinda sorta described the Hebrews ... ewwww ... just what were they doing to that Golden Calf when Moses came down from Mt Sinai ...

It doesn't matter IMO, since the Christianized (Rome-anized) version of the "original New Testimony" (Jewish) was written/fantasized in vast majority from 450 AD onward till around 1300AD. With the clear intention to create an artificial non-Jewish religion. - aka, Jesus was not a Jewish person (or messiah) who was in opposition to the then prevailing customs of the Hebrew religion and preached his opinions of true and pure Judaism - but he is God's son, born and created specifically to be a Christian - aka only Christians are God's true chosen people.

Thus the Roman Church counter-created their own version of the Hebrew Bible story book - which basically claims the same thing. Then added that Jesus was slain or victimized by Jews (true) - to make certain that no Christian would ever get the idea that Christianity is in fact a Hebrew thingy - and automatically view Hebrews to be the born enemies of Christianity.

 

[BreezeWood]

The only time I ever hear mention of Chosen People is when an antisemite brings it up. I went through years of Hebrew School, Sunday School, and talks around the dinner table, and never once was this term mentioned. Never heard it brought up in my Jewish friends’ homes, either.

sure it is ...

then just deny its existence and remove the implication from your literature and make it the inappropriate transgression everyone knows that to be. as all the forgeries and fallacies written in all three desert religions.

 

[Votto]

Like John Lennon?

John once said that the Beetles were more famous than Jesus.

Do you think that is true today?

 

[Votto]

He is famous because of a book. And his story is so known, because it was ripped off of earlier deities.
Doesnt the bible say he was to return within his generation?

Yet Jesus outshines them all. I would say that about 99.999% of all threads relate to Christ here anyway.

Funny that.

As for the generation thingy

This quote of Jesus in regards to the end times is found in Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; and Luke 21:32. Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” The things that Jesus had been speaking of—the rise of the Antichrist, the desolation of the Holy Place, and the darkening of the sun—did not happen during the lifespan of people alive in Jesus’ day. Obviously, Jesus meant something different when He spoke of “this generation.”

The key to understanding what Jesus meant by “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” is the context; that is, we must understand the verses that are surrounding Matthew 24:34, especially the verses prior to it. In Matthew 24:4–31, Jesus is clearly giving a prophecy; He is speaking of future events. Jesus had already told those living during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had been taken from them (Matthew 21:43). Therefore, it is imperative that Matthew 24–25 be seen as dealing with a future time. The generation that Jesus speaks of “not passing” until He returns is a future generation, namely, the people living when the predicted events occur. The word generation refers to the people alive in the future when the events of Matthew 24–25 take place.

Jesus’ point in His statement, “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place,” is that the events of the end times will happen quickly. Once the signs of the end begin to be observed, the end is well on the way—the second coming and the judgment will occur within that last generation. Jesus reinforced this meaning with a parable in Matthew 24:32–33: “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.” A sure sign of summer is the leafing of the fig tree; a sure sign of the end of the world is that “all these things” (of Matthew 24) are taking place. Those who are on the earth then will have only a short time left.

Another interpretation is that Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24 has a “double fulfillment.” In this view, “this generation” is the people Jesus was speaking to at that moment—some of what He predicted was going to occur during their lifetimes. So, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70, Jesus’ prophecy was fulfilled in part; the fall of Jerusalem provided a foretaste of worse things to come. However, many aspects of Jesus’ prophecy did not occur in AD 70; for example, the celestial signs of Matthew 24:29–31. The main problem with the “dual-fulfillment” interpretation is that it does not harmonize with Jesus’ statement that “all” these things will take place in “this generation.” Therefore, it is better to understand “this generation” as referring to the generation alive when the end times events are actually occurring.

Essentially, Jesus is saying that, once the events of the end times begin, they will happen quickly. The age of grace has continued for a very long time. But when the time for judgment finally arrives, things will be wrapped up posthaste. This concept of God’s drawing things to a rapid close is echoed in many other passages of Scripture (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20; Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20).

 

[ninja007]

After all, it does say in the Christian Bible that “his blood is on Jews and all their generations“ along with other anti-Jewish verses.

Me? I do not. I think Jesus was basically a good man, with good intentions, and taught traditional Jewish values. His “do unto others” teaching, for example, can straight from Hillel.

The problem really started decades later when the NT was written. The claims that Jesus said “nobody gets to the Father except through me” is either outright false (no Jew would elevate himself like that) or misconstrued when he meant one must follow his teachings to see Gd.

That interpretation led to the idea the Gd is angry at Jews, has cursed them, and some of the other nasty stuff I’ve read right here on this forum. And the more Jews stuck with their religion that clearly outlined who the Messiah would be - Jesus didn’t fit - the more angry the 1st c Christians got with them. By the time John was written, they were in all-out assault mode.

Jesus certainly never intended any of this.

why do you believe Jesus is not God?

 

[fncceo]

why do you believe Jesus is not God?

Ummm ... because the Romans killed him?

 

[ninja007]

Ummm ... because the Romans killed him?

umm, no.

 

[irosie91]

The golden rule is universal and predates Judaism.

and it predates christianity-----for a Jew from Galilee---it is TALMUDIC

A small correction. The quote in all Christian bibles is, "His blood is on us (the people in the crowd at the trial) and on our children."

Undoubtedly there were more people in the crowd who welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem (the Christian Palm Sunday) than there were at the trial.

HUH? undoubtedly there were NO jews at GOLGATHA dancing around and yelling
"CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIRY HIM"-----the jews of Jerusalem were not ROMAN VESTIL
SLUTS giggling at the Colliseum. ------the minions of Constantine were "confused"

 

[surada]

and it predates christianity-----for a Jew from Galilee---it is TALMUDIC

HUH? undoubtedly there were NO jews at GOLGATHA dancing around and yelling
"CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIRY HIM"-----the jews of Jerusalem were not ROMAN VESTIL
SLUTS giggling at the Colliseum. ------the minions of Constantine were "confused"

When was Constantine born?

 

[norwegen]

Doesnt the bible say he was to return within his generation?

Yes.

Although this can't be exactly true, but if it helps, one might think of the New Testament as being composed after the fact as an explanation for the collapse of Judaism. After the fact of the Great Revolt - the destruction of the temple, the decimation of the population, the loss of national identity.

And as they account in their history of God's appearances among them in the clouds to judge (either them or their enemies), they recount one last such appearance, God, in the end, being their Messiah.

No corporeal appearance. Ever. But according to the New Testament, Jesus indeed did come to judge.