John 3:16 means you have to be Christian to get into heaven

[hobelim]

The lie is that anyone who sins can be good enough to fulfill every letter of the LAW. If someone beaks one letter of the LAW that individual has broken the entire LAW.

Jesus said, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander.…" He was insisting that what goes into the mouth (dietary laws) is less important than what comes from the heart. He was speaking to some in the ruling class who had both the ways and means to keep dietary law and perhaps did so faithfully. However, simply observing dietary law will not prevent someone from doing evil. Nor will a break in dietary law cause someone to do an evil deed.

Evil comes from the heart, first as evil thoughts. I believe Jesus would have supported the idea:

Be careful of your thoughts, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful of your words, for your words become your actions.
Be careful of your actions, for your actions become your habits.
Be careful of your habits, for your habits become your character.
Be careful of your character, for your character becomes your destiny.

Notice, this does not start out, "Be careful of what you eat..."

On the other hand: Watching what you eat out of obedience to God begins with the thought of being obedient to God. Obedience to God can become our destiny.

A person cannot conform to a literal interpretation of the dietary laws without violating the deeper implications of the same exact laws.

For instance, if one accepts the teaching that kosher law is a menu about what is ok or not to eat they are violating the significant deeper implications of the law which prohibits eating the flesh of swine who do not ruminate because the premies that a person can become holy or defiled by eating or refraining from certain food is the flesh of swine who do not ruminate.

Uh huh.
You misquoted once today; try not to fertilize the lawn too much.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

Your sin is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.

 

[Indeependent]

Oh, please...you can't preach to me until you prove that the Source (Tanach) supports NT.

I want an honest conversation as I have zero desire to change your beliefs.

Please quote Tanach and I'll show you the verse(s) you are are omitting.

Excuse me. How is a conversation I entered into with Little Nipper preaching to you? Further, I have no interest in proving the Tanach supports the New Testament. With Little Nipper, I was referencing material in the New Testament, not anything in the Tanach.

You are more than welcome to introduce Tanach passages. As I did not even quote the Tanach, you might (correctly) point out that I omitted everything in the Tanach. Which I did.

You are correct...I apologize.

 

[Indeependent]

The lie is that anyone who sins can be good enough to fulfill every letter of the LAW. If someone beaks one letter of the LAW that individual has broken the entire LAW.

Jesus said, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander.…" He was insisting that what goes into the mouth (dietary laws) is less important than what comes from the heart. He was speaking to some in the ruling class who had both the ways and means to keep dietary law and perhaps did so faithfully. However, simply observing dietary law will not prevent someone from doing evil. Nor will a break in dietary law cause someone to do an evil deed.

Evil comes from the heart, first as evil thoughts. I believe Jesus would have supported the idea:

Be careful of your thoughts, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful of your words, for your words become your actions.
Be careful of your actions, for your actions become your habits.
Be careful of your habits, for your habits become your character.
Be careful of your character, for your character becomes your destiny.

Notice, this does not start out, "Be careful of what you eat..."

On the other hand: Watching what you eat out of obedience to God begins with the thought of being obedient to God. Obedience to God can become our destiny.

A person cannot conform to a literal interpretation of the dietary laws without violating the deeper implications of the same exact laws.

For instance, if one accepts the teaching that kosher law is a menu about what is ok or not to eat they are violating the significant deeper implications of the law which prohibits eating the flesh of swine who do not ruminate because the premies that a person can become holy or defiled by eating or refraining from certain food is the flesh of swine who do not ruminate.

Uh huh.
You misquoted once today; try not to fertilize the lawn too much.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

Your sin is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.

Prove it with context.
You can't possibly win this.

 

[Meriweather]

A prophecy in Tanach limited to a place and time?
There are 2 million Jews on Earth at the moment who would disagree with that.
In fact, where do you see this?
They are both explicitly stating that Jews bring about their own tragedies by ignoring God's recipe for life.
Not one verse in either is intended for anyone but the Jew.
But it's almost impossible to see that when you skip Tanach and jump directly into the NT.

Is it your position that only Jews bring about their own tragedies by ignoring God's recipe for life? Gentiles don't bring about their own tragedies by ignoring God?

 

[Indeependent]

A prophecy in Tanach limited to a place and time?
There are 2 million Jews on Earth at the moment who would disagree with that.
In fact, where do you see this?
They are both explicitly stating that Jews bring about their own tragedies by ignoring God's recipe for life.
Not one verse in either is intended for anyone but the Jew.
But it's almost impossible to see that when you skip Tanach and jump directly into the NT.

Is it your position that only Jews bring about their own tragedies by ignoring God's recipe for life? Gentiles don't bring about their own tragedies by ignoring God?

Non-Jews have a much lower bar because they have 7 common sense Commandments.

 

[Meriweather]

Non-Jews have a much lower bar because they have 7 common sense Commandments.

Shrug. Many of us are taught, "You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." That's a pretty high bar. I was very little when I was taught I should love God above all others. I took things like that very seriously, even then. I immediately sat down and wrote out a list of all those I loved. God was at the bottom, which let me know I had some work to do, and as it turns out, life-long work.

Also, those who try pole vaulting or the high jump usually start with a very low bar, but are not content with remaining at that level for very long. Most people want to grow.

 

[Indeependent]

Non-Jews have a much lower bar because they have 7 common sense Commandments.

Shrug. Many of us are taught, "You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." That's a pretty high bar. I was very little when I was taught I should love God above all others. I took things like that very seriously, even then. I immediately sat down and wrote out a list of all those I loved. God was at the bottom, which let me know I had some work to do, and as it turns out, life-long work.

Also, those who try pole vaulting or the high jump usually start with a very low bar, but are not content with remaining at that level for very long. Most people want to grow.

The Shema is misquoted.
Paul was an idiot.
"All of your mind" is not part of the verse.

 

[Indeependent]

Non-Jews have a much lower bar because they have 7 common sense Commandments.

Shrug. Many of us are taught, "You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." That's a pretty high bar. I was very little when I was taught I should love God above all others. I took things like that very seriously, even then. I immediately sat down and wrote out a list of all those I loved. God was at the bottom, which let me know I had some work to do, and as it turns out, life-long work.

Also, those who try pole vaulting or the high jump usually start with a very low bar, but are not content with remaining at that level for very long. Most people want to grow.

Your overall sentiment is beautiful.

 

[Meriweather]

The Shema is misquoted.
Paul was an idiot.
"All of your mind" is not part of the verse.

I wasn't quoting Paul. Apparently "all of your mind" isn't the bar Jews are meant to attain.

More seriously, people who have had an experience of God are going to be interested in others who have had experiences of God. Those who have experienced God's love are so awestruck that this awe is not an just an awareness of God's overwhelming love for them, but an awareness of God's overwhelming love for everyone. How can we help people meet or discover God for themselves. I believe the Book of Kings has the best advice: Don't look for God in the grandiose. Search the tiny whispers. And yes, coming into contact with God often takes everything that is in us--heart, mind, and soul, or body, mind, spirit--however we wish to phrase it.

 

[alang1216]

The Torah states explicitly that the Tribe will always be few in number.

So the one God is a god of the few? Seems like a big universe for such a small tribe.

 

[Meriweather]

So the one God is a god of the few? Seems like a big universe for such a small tribe.

There is a difference between the tribe being God's only people and a tribe being chosen by God and trained for a special purpose in God's plan. Remember, Jews are to be a people set apart, a light for nations.

 

[Indeependent]

The Torah states explicitly that the Tribe will always be few in number.

So the one God is a god of the few? Seems like a big universe for such a small tribe.

Considering we don't really exist.

 

[alang1216]

So the one God is a god of the few? Seems like a big universe for such a small tribe.

There is a difference between the tribe being God's only people and a tribe being chosen by God and trained for a special purpose in God's plan. Remember, Jews are to be a people set apart, a light for nations.

The Jews are the chosen people they say. Chosen for what besides a whole lot of suffering? I guess when you think about it, if they didn't suffer they'd assimilate. Would that be so terrible?

 

[Meriweather]

The Jews are the chosen people they say. Chosen for what besides a whole lot of suffering? I guess when you think about it, if they didn't suffer they'd assimilate. Would that be so terrible?

As I mentioned before, to be a people set apart, to be a light to the nations. How would you feel about yourself if you knew God commanded for you to be apart and you decided that was too much trouble and you assimilated?

 

[Indeependent]

So the one God is a god of the few? Seems like a big universe for such a small tribe.

There is a difference between the tribe being God's only people and a tribe being chosen by God and trained for a special purpose in God's plan. Remember, Jews are to be a people set apart, a light for nations.

The Jews are the chosen people they say. Chosen for what besides a whole lot of suffering? I guess when you think about it, if they didn't suffer they'd assimilate. Would that be so terrible?

Absorb this...
The spiritual forces that keep the universe operating require input.
The input is studying the blueprint of creation.
The moment the blueprint of creation is ignored, creation ceases to exist.

Hence, the generation of the flood.
God supplied total charity.
Mankind, with the exception of one unappreciated human, stopped supplying the spiritual forces with fuel.
God decided to start all over with that person.
That person, bridled with only 7 common sense orders, wound up becoming an alcoholic.

But that person had enough of an influence on his descendants to produce Avraham, who's only desire was to please God.
Why was Avraham so eager to please God?
Avraham met Noach and heard the story of the flood.
Avraham realized how merciful God had to be to not scrap the whole universe and instead forge on.

Remember that God doesn't need anything; whatever God sustains is done out of pure kindness.

 

[LittleNipper]

To be a Noachide, study Job.
Nobody gets a free ride in this world.

Yes, the Book of Job is wonderful, but it does not hold a candle to books like Jeremiah and Isaiah (not to mention several others).

Agreed. No one gets a free wide in this world. It is only a very small segment of Christianity who claims this. Perhaps compare them to Jews who believe Noachide laws are good enough. As for many of us: Good enough never is.

Isaiah and Jeremiah are for Jews.
Job is for non-Jews.
There is not one chapter in Isaiah or Jeremiah that you can quote where there isn't a verse that implores Mitzvah observance.

Hebrews is directed towards Jews. Ecclesiastics is directed towards know-it-alls...

 

[JohnPrewett]

The problem is that Orthodox Jews have been applying philosophical rhetoric for not having offered sacrifices at their temple for 2000 years and use the very same vain approaches to suggest that GOD doesn't care one way or the other. I have no love for the traditions of the Roman Catholic organization. However, men of GOD have and do understand that no one can fulfill all the LAW's requirements to enter into heaven minus a sacrifice. Christians have a perfect sacrifice (whether you believe it or not). Orthodox Jews have none. So imperfectly keeping the LAW to save one's self isn't a correct answer.

What became of all the good people who lived before Jesus? Was there no path to heaven for them?

Jesus preached to the souls in hell .....

 

[LittleNipper]

The lie is that anyone who sins can be good enough to fulfill every letter of the LAW. If someone beaks one letter of the LAW that individual has broken the entire LAW.

Jesus said, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander.…" He was insisting that what goes into the mouth (dietary laws) is less important than what comes from the heart. He was speaking to some in the ruling class who had both the ways and means to keep dietary law and perhaps did so faithfully. However, simply observing dietary law will not prevent someone from doing evil. Nor will a break in dietary law cause someone to do an evil deed.

Evil comes from the heart, first as evil thoughts. I believe Jesus would have supported the idea:

Be careful of your thoughts, for your thoughts become your words.
Be careful of your words, for your words become your actions.
Be careful of your actions, for your actions become your habits.
Be careful of your habits, for your habits become your character.
Be careful of your character, for your character becomes your destiny.

Notice, this does not start out, "Be careful of what you eat..."

On the other hand: Watching what you eat out of obedience to God begins with the thought of being obedient to God. Obedience to God can become our destiny.

Oh, please...you can't preach to me until you prove that the Source (Tanach) supports NT.

I want an honest conversation as I have zero desire to change your beliefs.

Please quote Tanach and I'll show you the verse(s) you are are omitting.

Your beliefs and my beliefs cannot both be correct, and if your beliefs are correct, why on earth wouldn't you wish to enlighten me... And if my beliefs are correct, why on earth would I deny you any opportunity to reconsider.

 

[Indeependent]

To be a Noachide, study Job.
Nobody gets a free ride in this world.

Yes, the Book of Job is wonderful, but it does not hold a candle to books like Jeremiah and Isaiah (not to mention several others).

Agreed. No one gets a free wide in this world. It is only a very small segment of Christianity who claims this. Perhaps compare them to Jews who believe Noachide laws are good enough. As for many of us: Good enough never is.

Isaiah and Jeremiah are for Jews.
Job is for non-Jews.
There is not one chapter in Isaiah or Jeremiah that you can quote where there isn't a verse that implores Mitzvah observance.

Hebrews is directed towards Jews. Ecclesiastics is directed towards know-it-alls...

Hebrews is the NT, not Tenach.
Koheles (Gatherer) was almost left out of the Tenach but ends with the verse that Torah study and adherence are the reason God created Jews, which is why it cannot be used to support Christianity.

 

[JohnPrewett]

No vicarious atonement Ezekiel 18: 20-22 among others the son does not take the sin of the father and the father does not take the sin of the son all stand on their own....We have discussed this many many times... It is like a bad smell that keeps cropping up from time to time...Christianities sacrifice of Jesus is bogus and an affront to any that can see through this lie...Besides the obvious other reasons...

Early on, through Abraham, God said God would provide the sacrifice. And praise God. God did. Some 2000 years ago.

15 The Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them over and over again by His messengers
because He had compassion on His people and His dwelling place.
16 But they continued to jest regarding the messengers of God, despising His word and making fun of His prophets
until the wrath of the Lord came up against His people, until there was no remedy.
2 Chronicles 36

Too bad the Hebrew establishment invariably rejected God's words and messengers .... and ultimately rejected God's Son.

But ..... Some Hebrews did accept God's messengers and the God-sent Messiah.

"the common people heard Him gladly" .......... and of course for at least a couple of decades the early Church was all Hebrews.