Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[Lewdog]

That a lot of these situations the white people that call the cops or react like this shooter did, only do so because the person they are interacting with are Black instead of white.

So you're saying a white guy called the cops on a black woman because she wouldn't accept his coupon? It doesn't sound like he's a racist, it sounds like he's a nut. A list of anecdotal stories doesn't prove anything.

The facts are that blacks murder people at a far higher rate than whites do. If you're arguing that whites are racists if they know that, that's just lame. Facts aren't racist.

However, you cannot apply that to killing someone who is not a threat to you or as in this case actually staging a confrontation. It doesn't matter if you or the victim is white or black, it's murder

No... you didn't see it? A white manager at CVS called the cops on a Black woman because she had a coupon that said CVS on it, and he thought it was fake and wouldn't take it. She asked for a customer service number, and instead he started threatening to call the cops on her, and then she told him to go ahead... and he did. He literally called the cops on her because of a coupon. He is on video too. He got fired.

There is a WHOLE LOT more to murder rates than you think. And these issues where cops are being called by white people on Blacks is nothing even remotely close to a murder situation. Do you think the white girl in the college dorm thought she was going to be murdered by the Black girl sleeping on the couch in the common room of the dorm?

I'm not even clear what you're arguing. Are you arguing that white people want to shoot black people while black people actually shoot more white people than whites shoot blacks?

And again, anecdotal arguments mean nothing

No. I'm saying that white people often over-act in simple situation if it is a black person instead of a white person. NOT A MUGGING OR SOMETHING WHERE THEY MIGHT GET KILLED. Normal... non-assuming situations like customer service. If you don't know what I am talking about, you haven't been paying attention the last couple weeks.

CVS fires employees for calling cops on customer - CNN Video

Woman called cops on a Black guy for wearing socks at pool.

Woman fired after calling the police on a black man for wearing socks in community pool

White female Yale student called the cops on Black student for sleeping on couch.

Police called on black student sleeping in her Yale dorm

These cases have nothing to do with being worried about being murdered. It's simply cases where people over-reacted.

And yet blacks actually murder far more whites than whites murder black and that isn't an "over-react(ion)." How does that make sense? Are blacks racist? Is that why they do it?

Again, WTF does murder have to do with an OLD Black woman with a coupon for depends, a guy wearing socks in a pool, and a young black girl sleeping on a couch at YALE have to do with worrying about being murdered?

 

[OODA_Loop]

No, I see a man who was a threat to a car with a woman defending her children in the car, I see testimony and video of a bystander who said he ran into the store to warn others because the situation was escalated, then I see a father approaching a man who's wife is protecting her car of children from....and judging by former testimony, likely threatened to shoot her...and then pushing the man away from his wife and family, then backing up as the man even started reaching for his waist...continued backing up as the man pointed and shot as opposed to using his gun as a deterrant he used it to murder a man who was protecting his family...and by past reports, he couldnt fucking wait to use that gun, and you call him victim. He has a mental illness about a fucking parking spot

Which of these action warranted the use of lethal force to push the man onto the pavement ?

 

[G.T.]

Looked pretty clear to me he was walking backward and it also seemed pretty clear the guys vision was good enough to hit center mass.

Its also clear he has a track record of trying to provoke a shooting. He's made threats. His intent is established, the video bolsters it.

But center of mass of a blurr? Who knows? We’re talking fractions of a second here. The guy was blindsided. And again; the view offered by the video, is not the view the victim had.

Correct, the victim's view was backing away from a man as he pulled his gun....gleefully, if we are to believe the testimony of the store clerk and the gentleman he had previously threatened to shoot over a parking space he was mentally derranged and obsessed with.

The victim was on the ground, and going nowhere. What video are you watching? Watch the one at the beginning of the thread. Pause it the moment you see a crime being committed. In that frame you will see the assailant, knocking the victim to the ground.

No, I see a man who was a threat to a car with a woman defending her children in the car, I see testimony and video of a bystander who said he ran into the store to warn others because the situation was escalated, then I see a father approaching a man who's wife is protecting her car of children from....and judging by former testimony, likely threatened to shoot her...and then pushing the man away from his wife and family, then backing up as the man even started reaching for his waist...continued backing up as the man pointed and shot as opposed to using his gun as a deterrant he used it to murder a man who was protecting his family...and by past reports, he couldnt fucking wait to use that gun, and you call him victim. He has a mental illness about a fucking parking spot

There is no room for conjecture in a debate whose outcome has such serious ramifications. Sorry bro. You know I love ya. But you’re straying far from the facts presented in the video, and falling back on emotion.

No, Im basing the determination on logic. Theres testimony that the man previously threatened to SHOOT someone over the parking spot, and theres a man who ran into the store to GET HELP, and theres a man who got shot on video walking backwards after pushing someone away from his family.

Any responsible gun owner should be appalled at this guy's blood lust, threats and provocations.

 

[Circe]

"Affect is usually a verb, and it means to impact or change. Effect is usually a noun, an effect is the result of a change."

Affect vs. Effect

It is affect, not effect. A sheriff "affects" an arrest because an arrest is a noun in that sentence not a verb.

Wrong. Both effect and affect are verbs (and nouns, depending). Effect as a verb means to do, as in "effect an arrest." As a noun effect means what happens: the effect of the tornado was broken buildings. Affect as a verb means the influence of something: the affect of screaming at women in parking lots can be negative. Affect as a noun usually means emotion, and is simply a technical term in psychology. He showed lack of affect despite having just killed a man.

Don't mess with the Editor.

Or criticize the grammar of my posts, where I make as many errors as anyone else. No one can edit their own writing.

 

[OODA_Loop]

That's why I won't back down from the argument that if you're carrying, you have a responsibility to take all reasonable measures to avoid conflicts and you only produce the gun when you can't. Screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot because you don't like where she parked isn't it

Wise to avoid conflicts but not required. And if you get in a conflict that requires use of deadly force it doesn't mean your automatically wrong.

 

[kaz]

So as long as your afraid, your justified in taking another mans life? Taking another mans life is dependent on your emotional state?

Easy to be am armchair quarterback in these situations but you weren't the one who was assaulted and you have no idea what your own reaction would be to being the victim of a violent physical assault.

True, but we are supposed to be trained to overcome our emotions once the situation was under control, and the attacker disengaged, and even stepped back.

Supposed to be trained?

Where is that stipulation in any law regarding self defense?

Concealed permit holder right ?? Are you suggesting that concealed carry permits are found in cracker jack boxes ??

Where is there any stipulation on being trained to overcome emotion?

An NRA pistol safety class does not train people to overcome emotion

However, it would train people to avoid rather than create conflict as the test way to prevent shootings, however. And the goal is to avoid a shooting if at all possible, not just justify a shooting.

If you were carrying, would you start screaming at another guys's woman over where she was parked? You see any risk of that turning into a shooting?

 

[Vastator]

Gun safety starts with avoiding dangerous situations where possible. You don't create a dangerous situation where there could be a shooting. If you're screaming at a woman and her boyfriend is coming out, that right there is setting up a dangerous situation. I mean duh. How do you not get that?

I'm disappointed in all of you who apparently don't view being armed in public as a responsiblity. Particularly 2aguy who is a longtime ally in arguing 2nd amendment rights. What about try NOT to use your gun eludes you?

Armed, or not one is obligated to act responsibly in public. It’s a good idea to do the same in private as well. As to what constitutes him screaming at her... That’s subjective, and we have no idea if she was “screaming” at him in kind. Nor who “screamed” first.
As for doing this while her boyfriend was coming out of the store... It’s unlikely that the victim knew he was being approached by her boyfriend. Otherwise he would likely have made some move to defend himself against an approaching threat. As for the assailaints moral high ground... Muh dicking for your girlfriend gets no traction. He could have just as easily displayed his virtue by telling the driver not to park in the handicapped spot.
And for those bleeding hearts who assume the assailants location indicated the assault was over... You‘re merely speculating. The assault is only over when the assailant decides its over; or when he’s rendered incapable of furthering the assault. The victim made the choice in this case, by opting for choice two.

Yes, and by repeatedly being aggressive and armed, death was the eventual outcome, which is why it was murder. That isn't how you act when you're armed

Being armed has nothing to do with how you should act.

Sure as shit does. I carry concealed and I definitely am not going to inject myself into confrontations for this very reason

Thank you. I can't believe any second amendment supporter wouldn't feel that way.

And in this case, the shooter did more than interject himself into a confrontation, he started it by yelling at the woman in the parking lot.

I always argue to leftists that they don't have actual standards because they only apply their standards to Republicans, never themselves. A standard is something you apply to yourself first, or it's just an attack, not a standard.

That's why I won't back down from the argument that if you're carrying, you have a responsibility to take all reasonable measures to avoid conflicts and you only produce the gun when you can't. Screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot because you don't like where she parked isn't it

If ones standards of appropriate conduct change merely by possession of a weapon. The weapon should always be subservient to the will of the master. Not the other way around.

 

[G.T.]

No, I see a man who was a threat to a car with a woman defending her children in the car, I see testimony and video of a bystander who said he ran into the store to warn others because the situation was escalated, then I see a father approaching a man who's wife is protecting her car of children from....and judging by former testimony, likely threatened to shoot her...and then pushing the man away from his wife and family, then backing up as the man even started reaching for his waist...continued backing up as the man pointed and shot as opposed to using his gun as a deterrant he used it to murder a man who was protecting his family...and by past reports, he couldnt fucking wait to use that gun, and you call him victim. He has a mental illness about a fucking parking spot

Which of these action warranted the use of lethal force to push the man onto the pavement ?

Pushing someone down can cause death but its not lethal force. Do you understand the difference?

Do you understand what an officer means when he says lethal force? Doesnt seem like it, and I dont care to try to teach someone who cant understand something so simplistic

 

[kaz]

A full grown man yelling that at a woman in the parking lot is threatening her. It doesn't matter what he's saying if he initiated the confrontation. There is clear unequal force on the two sides

Oh bullshit!

So you would be unconcerned if a man started yelling at your wife in a parking lot.

As you so eloquently put it, oh bullshit

I'm not a savage.
I would have simply got back in the car and left.
Of course I'd never park in a handicap zone so it would never have become an issue.

Swish, you didn't address the point. You said the guy did not threaten her. If a man went up to your wife and started screaming at her in a parking lot, you wouldn't view that as a threat. I sure the fuck would. I frankly don't believe you saying you believe that is not threatening

So in response you escalate the situation?
How'd that turn out for Saint McGlockton?

I'd escalate the situation by not screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot while I'm packing? Seriously? How does that make sense?

 

[OODA_Loop]

Pushing someone down can cause death but its not lethal force. Do you understand the difference?

Do you understand what an officer means when he says lethal force? Doesnt seem like it, and I dont care to try to teach someone who cant understand something so simplistic

i understand the difference. It can cause death and its used as force....its lethal force.

 

[kaz]

So you're saying a white guy called the cops on a black woman because she wouldn't accept his coupon? It doesn't sound like he's a racist, it sounds like he's a nut. A list of anecdotal stories doesn't prove anything.

The facts are that blacks murder people at a far higher rate than whites do. If you're arguing that whites are racists if they know that, that's just lame. Facts aren't racist.

However, you cannot apply that to killing someone who is not a threat to you or as in this case actually staging a confrontation. It doesn't matter if you or the victim is white or black, it's murder

No... you didn't see it? A white manager at CVS called the cops on a Black woman because she had a coupon that said CVS on it, and he thought it was fake and wouldn't take it. She asked for a customer service number, and instead he started threatening to call the cops on her, and then she told him to go ahead... and he did. He literally called the cops on her because of a coupon. He is on video too. He got fired.

There is a WHOLE LOT more to murder rates than you think. And these issues where cops are being called by white people on Blacks is nothing even remotely close to a murder situation. Do you think the white girl in the college dorm thought she was going to be murdered by the Black girl sleeping on the couch in the common room of the dorm?

I'm not even clear what you're arguing. Are you arguing that white people want to shoot black people while black people actually shoot more white people than whites shoot blacks?

And again, anecdotal arguments mean nothing

No. I'm saying that white people often over-act in simple situation if it is a black person instead of a white person. NOT A MUGGING OR SOMETHING WHERE THEY MIGHT GET KILLED. Normal... non-assuming situations like customer service. If you don't know what I am talking about, you haven't been paying attention the last couple weeks.

CVS fires employees for calling cops on customer - CNN Video

Woman called cops on a Black guy for wearing socks at pool.

Woman fired after calling the police on a black man for wearing socks in community pool

White female Yale student called the cops on Black student for sleeping on couch.

Police called on black student sleeping in her Yale dorm

These cases have nothing to do with being worried about being murdered. It's simply cases where people over-reacted.

And yet blacks actually murder far more whites than whites murder black and that isn't an "over-react(ion)." How does that make sense? Are blacks racist? Is that why they do it?

Again, WTF does murder have to do with an OLD Black woman with a coupon for depends, a guy wearing socks in a pool, and a young black girl sleeping on a couch at YALE have to do with worrying about being murdered?

Nothing, I never said it did. Actually, you brought this up in our discussion about murder, not me.

Fact: Blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks

LewDemocrat: OMG, whites have a race issue

That's what makes no sense

 

[G.T.]

Pushing someone down can cause death but its not lethal force. Do you understand the difference?

Do you understand what an officer means when he says lethal force? Doesnt seem like it, and I dont care to try to teach someone who cant understand something so simplistic

i understand the difference. It can cause death and its used as force....its lethal force.

Yeah, no. Nobodys ever been convicted of attempted murder for pushing someone down. If a push results in a death its also not murder, its involuntary manslaughter by virtue of a push NOT being considered lethal in intent.

Give it a fuckin break...an obsessive compulsive threatening to shoot people over a damn parking spot being pushed away from a woman and children is what youre defending as cause for murder in spite of the pusher doing what any grown man should do to a nutbag approaching his family


you perhaps dont belong owning deadly weaponry, either. life is more valuable than a killing in retaliation for a push.

 

[Lewdog]

Easy to be am armchair quarterback in these situations but you weren't the one who was assaulted and you have no idea what your own reaction would be to being the victim of a violent physical assault.

True, but we are supposed to be trained to overcome our emotions once the situation was under control, and the attacker disengaged, and even stepped back.

Supposed to be trained?

Where is that stipulation in any law regarding self defense?

Concealed permit holder right ?? Are you suggesting that concealed carry permits are found in cracker jack boxes ??

Where is there any stipulation on being trained to overcome emotion?

An NRA pistol safety class does not train people to overcome emotion

However, it would train people to avoid rather than create conflict as the test way to prevent shootings, however. And the goal is to avoid a shooting if at all possible, not just justify a shooting.

If you were carrying, would you start screaming at another guys's woman over where she was parked? You see any risk of that turning into a shooting?

This kind of thing is why in many states that have CCW, still have laws where you can't wear the gun into an establishment that serves alcohol. If you got guys like this idiot that can't be responsible with his gun in a situation like this, could you imagine how many people would get killed if you had a bunch of CCW people getting drunk off their ass?

 

[Vastator]

But center of mass of a blurr? Who knows? We’re talking fractions of a second here. The guy was blindsided. And again; the view offered by the video, is not the view the victim had.

Correct, the victim's view was backing away from a man as he pulled his gun....gleefully, if we are to believe the testimony of the store clerk and the gentleman he had previously threatened to shoot over a parking space he was mentally derranged and obsessed with.

The victim was on the ground, and going nowhere. What video are you watching? Watch the one at the beginning of the thread. Pause it the moment you see a crime being committed. In that frame you will see the assailant, knocking the victim to the ground.

No, I see a man who was a threat to a car with a woman defending her children in the car, I see testimony and video of a bystander who said he ran into the store to warn others because the situation was escalated, then I see a father approaching a man who's wife is protecting her car of children from....and judging by former testimony, likely threatened to shoot her...and then pushing the man away from his wife and family, then backing up as the man even started reaching for his waist...continued backing up as the man pointed and shot as opposed to using his gun as a deterrant he used it to murder a man who was protecting his family...and by past reports, he couldnt fucking wait to use that gun, and you call him victim. He has a mental illness about a fucking parking spot

There is no room for conjecture in a debate whose outcome has such serious ramifications. Sorry bro. You know I love ya. But you’re straying far from the facts presented in the video, and falling back on emotion.

No, Im basing the determination on logic. Theres testimony that the man previously threatened to SHOOT someone over the parking spot, and theres a man who ran into the store to GET HELP, and theres a man who got shot on video walking backwards after pushing someone away from his family.

Any responsible gun owner should be appalled at this guy's blood lust, threats and provocations.

I can only assess the evidence before me. Not hearsay of people on the news, who didn’t even witness the event. The assailant blind sides the victim, which results in his own death, fractions of a second later. I’m not endorsing the victims self proclaimed status as a meter maid; but in the video he is clearly the first person who is legally victimized. And he clearly acted again this aggressor.
I personally find fault with all parties involved. But only one escalated it to the point of violence. And it cost him his life.

 

[kaz]

Pushing someone down can cause death but its not lethal force. Do you understand the difference?

Do you understand what an officer means when he says lethal force? Doesnt seem like it, and I dont care to try to teach someone who cant understand something so simplistic

i understand the difference. It can cause death and its used as force....its lethal force.

Yeah, no. Nobodys ever been convicted of attempted murder for pushing someone down. If a push results in a death its also not murder, its involuntary manslaughter by virtue of a push NOT being considered lethal in intent.

Give it a fuckin break...an obsessive compulsive threatening to shoot people over a damn parking spot being pushed away from a woman and children is what youre defending as cause for murder in spite of the pusher doing what any grown man should do to a nutbag approaching his family


you perhaps dont belong owning deadly weaponry, either. life is more valuable than a killing in retaliation for a push.

Bam! Perfectly stated

 

[kaz]

True, but we are supposed to be trained to overcome our emotions once the situation was under control, and the attacker disengaged, and even stepped back.

Supposed to be trained?

Where is that stipulation in any law regarding self defense?

Concealed permit holder right ?? Are you suggesting that concealed carry permits are found in cracker jack boxes ??

Where is there any stipulation on being trained to overcome emotion?

An NRA pistol safety class does not train people to overcome emotion

However, it would train people to avoid rather than create conflict as the test way to prevent shootings, however. And the goal is to avoid a shooting if at all possible, not just justify a shooting.

If you were carrying, would you start screaming at another guys's woman over where she was parked? You see any risk of that turning into a shooting?

This kind of thing is why in many states that have CCW, still have laws where you can't wear the gun into an establishment that serves alcohol. If you got guys like this idiot that can't be responsible with his gun in a situation like this, could you imagine how many people would get killed if you had a bunch of CCW people getting drunk off their ass?

Typical Democrat argument, argue from theory, ignore reality.

In reality, the psycho WOULD carry the gun in the bar while everyone else would obey the law and be unarmed to defend themselves.

This happens over and over and yet you have a complete inability to learn from reality

 

[G.T.]

Pushing someone down can cause death but its not lethal force. Do you understand the difference?

Do you understand what an officer means when he says lethal force? Doesnt seem like it, and I dont care to try to teach someone who cant understand something so simplistic

i understand the difference. It can cause death and its used as force....its lethal force.

Yeah, no. Nobodys ever been convicted of attempted murder for pushing someone down. If a push results in a death its also not murder, its involuntary manslaughter by virtue of a push NOT being considered lethal in intent.

Give it a fuckin break...an obsessive compulsive threatening to shoot people over a damn parking spot being pushed away from a woman and children is what youre defending as cause for murder in spite of the pusher doing what any grown man should do to a nutbag approaching his family


you perhaps dont belong owning deadly weaponry, either. life is more valuable than a killing in retaliation for a push.

Bam! Perfectly stated

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

 

[kaz]

Pushing someone down can cause death but its not lethal force. Do you understand the difference?

Do you understand what an officer means when he says lethal force? Doesnt seem like it, and I dont care to try to teach someone who cant understand something so simplistic

i understand the difference. It can cause death and its used as force....its lethal force.

Yeah, no. Nobodys ever been convicted of attempted murder for pushing someone down. If a push results in a death its also not murder, its involuntary manslaughter by virtue of a push NOT being considered lethal in intent.

Give it a fuckin break...an obsessive compulsive threatening to shoot people over a damn parking spot being pushed away from a woman and children is what youre defending as cause for murder in spite of the pusher doing what any grown man should do to a nutbag approaching his family


you perhaps dont belong owning deadly weaponry, either. life is more valuable than a killing in retaliation for a push.

Bam! Perfectly stated

Im pro gun rights but the mentality of anyone thinking this is OK makes me question being pretty pro regulation...I dunno. Its def. a downer that people are so irrational like that.

Well, notice that the majority of second amendment supporters are not on the side of the shooter.

But yes, that this many people would argue that yelling at a woman over where she parked while packing is not an unreasonably dangerous situation to create is a bit scary

 

[Lewdog]

No... you didn't see it? A white manager at CVS called the cops on a Black woman because she had a coupon that said CVS on it, and he thought it was fake and wouldn't take it. She asked for a customer service number, and instead he started threatening to call the cops on her, and then she told him to go ahead... and he did. He literally called the cops on her because of a coupon. He is on video too. He got fired.

There is a WHOLE LOT more to murder rates than you think. And these issues where cops are being called by white people on Blacks is nothing even remotely close to a murder situation. Do you think the white girl in the college dorm thought she was going to be murdered by the Black girl sleeping on the couch in the common room of the dorm?

I'm not even clear what you're arguing. Are you arguing that white people want to shoot black people while black people actually shoot more white people than whites shoot blacks?

And again, anecdotal arguments mean nothing

No. I'm saying that white people often over-act in simple situation if it is a black person instead of a white person. NOT A MUGGING OR SOMETHING WHERE THEY MIGHT GET KILLED. Normal... non-assuming situations like customer service. If you don't know what I am talking about, you haven't been paying attention the last couple weeks.

CVS fires employees for calling cops on customer - CNN Video

Woman called cops on a Black guy for wearing socks at pool.

Woman fired after calling the police on a black man for wearing socks in community pool

White female Yale student called the cops on Black student for sleeping on couch.

Police called on black student sleeping in her Yale dorm

These cases have nothing to do with being worried about being murdered. It's simply cases where people over-reacted.

And yet blacks actually murder far more whites than whites murder black and that isn't an "over-react(ion)." How does that make sense? Are blacks racist? Is that why they do it?

Again, WTF does murder have to do with an OLD Black woman with a coupon for depends, a guy wearing socks in a pool, and a young black girl sleeping on a couch at YALE have to do with worrying about being murdered?

Nothing, I never said it did. Actually, you brought this up in our discussion about murder, not me.

Fact: Blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks

LewDemocrat: OMG, whites have a race issue

That's what makes no sense

No I didn't. I said people like this guy have been over-reacting because of race a lot in all kinds of situations.

Fact, Blacks kill more Blacks than Blacks kill Whites. Now another thing, and this is the last I'll say, the percentage of Whites killed by Blacks, compared to Blacks killed by Whites, isn't that big of a gap, and to be quite honest, it could very easily be made up by the fact that a lot of Black deaths go unsolved because the cops don't care to put as much resources towards finding the killer unless they are someone of importance.

Now that's a fact. The less money you make, if you are a minority, and if you live in an urban area, the less police resources that will be used to solve your murder.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Oh bullshit!

So you would be unconcerned if a man started yelling at your wife in a parking lot.

As you so eloquently put it, oh bullshit

I'm not a savage.
I would have simply got back in the car and left.
Of course I'd never park in a handicap zone so it would never have become an issue.

Swish, you didn't address the point. You said the guy did not threaten her. If a man went up to your wife and started screaming at her in a parking lot, you wouldn't view that as a threat. I sure the fuck would. I frankly don't believe you saying you believe that is not threatening

So in response you escalate the situation?
How'd that turn out for Saint McGlockton?

I'd escalate the situation by not screaming at another guy's woman in a parking lot while I'm packing? Seriously? How does that make sense?

Big difference between yelling and assault.
And as I said earlier all involved are idiots.
From the chick on down to the shooter.