Zone1 Let's Talk About "Merit"

[Hector12]

I may have veered somewhat from the topic of merit, but I did so in order to draw attention to the high average merit of Orientals.

 

[Coyote]

No, we have people who are upset that racist policies allow lesser-qualified blacks in while rejecting better-qualified whites and Asians. We want to eliminate racist policies.

And again, granting admission to children of big donors isn’t racist. It’s done for financial reasons.

That isn’t internaly consistent.

You are ok when there is discrimination based on class that deprives an Asian student of greater merit from that college. (By the way, Asian students are quite upset about legacy admits).

Legacy preferences in these elite institutions are overwhelmingly White. Their acceptance rate is 33% compared to 6% overall according to one article.

According to the Hechinger report, there ARE benefits to admitting legacy students (more likely to matriculate, more likely to become donors) ….

PROOF POINTS: Why elite colleges won't give up legacy admissions

A study of 16 years of admissions data at one elite college reveals that alumni children are more likely to matriculate and donate

hechingerreport.org

…yet schools that have done away with legacy admissions do not appear to have suffered financially for doing so.

Six of the top 10 universities in the world no longer consider legacy when evaluating applicantsâhere's why

The recent $25 million college cheating scandal has sparked debate about the legal yet unethical ways in which wealthy students are given advantages including the use of legacy status in admissions.

www.cnbc.com

In addition, legacy admissions have a rather ugly history behind them, racist and anti-semitic.

Legacy College Admissions Come Under Fire In New Report

Legacy admissions - the practice where a college gives preferential admissions treatment to the children of its alumni - is facing intense criticism in a new report that documents the extent of the practice and calls for policies that would curtail or even end it.

www.forbes.com

The practice of giving admission preference to legacy applicants has a long history, extending back to the 1920s, when some colleges began to use the practice as a backdoor strategy for limiting the number of Jewish, minority and immigrant students by giving preference to alumni’s children who were seldom Jewish, people of color or immigrants.

Legacy admissions can easily be viewed as racist in nature, both from their initiation and in their practice now. Legacy admissions are a high percentage of all admissions in these elite institutions 33% to 14% overall (according to the below article). Because few Blacks ever get admitted, few Blacks (and other minorities) become donors and legacy students.

You argue that it makes sense to give special preferences to legacy admits for financial gain, yet there is a less tangible but none the less measurable financial gain in having a diverse student body that reflects back on the institution in terms of employment, corporate donations and reputation.

The Economic Imperative Of Achieving Diversity

www.forbes.com

Within the higher education community, the term "diversity" often reflects the array of student backgrounds, experiences, perspectives and characteristics that add to the mix of college campuses. Research has confirmed numerous benefits associated with a diverse learning environment. Diversity enhances the educational experience, fostering students' academic and social growth. It encourages students to think critically, enhances communication skills and fosters civic engagement.

Diversity also strengthens the workforce and enhances America's economic competitiveness. In a landmark 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling involving University of Michigan diversity policies, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor observed that the benefits of diversity to education and the workforce "are not theoretical but real, as major American businesses have made clear that the skills needed in today's increasingly global marketplace can only be developed through exposure to widely diverse people, cultures, ideas, and viewpoints."

Likewise, business leaders have sung the benefits of diversity for the workforce. In an amicus brief filed during the University of Michigan case, General Motors stated that "to succeed in this increasingly diverse environment, American businesses must select leaders who possess cross-cultural competence--the capacities to interact with and to understand the experiences of, and multiplicity of perspectives held by, persons of different races, ethnicities, and cultural histories."

Education within diverse learning environments prepares students to become good citizens and good workers in a fast-paced, globally interconnected world. Achieving diversity on college campuses and in the workforce does not require quotas, preferences, set-asides or the inclusion of unqualified applications, as some claim. Achieving diversity leads to an increase in our nation's human capital, thereby promoting a stronger workforce and more engaged citizenry.

Given the benefits of diversity to the institution, and the fact that unqualified candidates are still denied admission, it seems to me you would not have a problem with it if you are ok with the primarily white and historically racist/anti-Semitic legacy admissions.

Also, it needs to be pointed out that minority admits are not unqualified. They still must meet the stringent admission requirements of the institution.

 

[sparky]

merit

there's that word again......funny how that means different things to different folks......~S~

 

[Coyote]

White valedictorians with 4.0 averages are rejected all the time by Harvard, while your Jamal gets in with a 3.6 and in the upper 10%. In the meantime, a Black valedictorian with a 4.0 would get into every single Ivy.

There are maybe 5 or 6 a year, and include Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, multi-racial people. Without question, they all have merit. Some have very compelling life stories as well.

How I got into 8 Ivy Leagues and 13 other schools

Afro-Guyanese student Kelly Hyles got into 21 colleges. Here's how the Queens-based 17-year-old did it.

money.cnn.com

Kelly Hyles got into all eight Ivy League schools, plus MIT, Tufts, Johns Hopkins ... the list literally goes on.​

In fact, Hyles, a 17-year-old who lives in Queens, got 21 acceptance letters from colleges around the country.


While she's a straight A student, she's the first to admit that getting into so many schools didn't come without a lot of hard work.

Her studiousness is ingrained in her: Hyles spent the first decade of her life in a small village called Vryheid's Lust in Guyana.

"They were a bit more serious about school," said Hyles of kids from her village. "Teachers are allowed to beat you -- It wasn't anything severe, but it keeps kids in check." She moved to the U.S. when she was 11.


Hyles lives with her mother, who has set an example of what hard work looks like. Her mom works two jobs -- she's a home aide and a certified nursing assistant. Hyles commutes an hour and a half every day to the High School for Math, Science and Engineering in Harlem, one of New York's nine specialized high schools.

"It's required a lot of sacrifices," she said.

 

[Hector12]

I do not defend legacy admissions, but I can see how universities benefit from them. I do not see how any organization benefits by lowering standards for blacks to admit or hire more of them.

What are the benefits of diversity, equity, and inclusion? One can easily see the benefits of insisting on merit, qualifications, and excellence.

It would be interesting to see how similar companies compare when some emphasize diversity, equity, and inclusion in hiring, while others insist on merit, qualifications, and excellence.

 

[Coyote]

I do not defend legacy admissions, but I can see how universities benefit from them. I do not see how any organization benefits by lowering standards for blacks to admit or hire more of them.

What are the benefits of diversity, equity, and inclusion? One can easily see the benefits of insisting on merit, qualifications, and excellence.

It would be interesting to see how similar companies compare when some emphasize diversity, equity, and inclusion in hiring, while others insist on merit, qualifications, and excellence.

Standards are not lowered, they have to meet the same academic standards to be accepted.

You can have diversity AND merit.

 

[Lisa558]

That isn’t internaly consistent.

You are ok when there is discrimination based on class that deprives an Asian student of greater merit from that college. (By the way, Asian students are quite upset about legacy admits).

Legacy preferences in these elite institutions are overwhelmingly White. Their acceptance rate is 33% compared to 6% overall according to one article.

According to the Hechinger report, there ARE benefits to admitting legacy students (more likely to matriculate, more likely to become donors) ….

PROOF POINTS: Why elite colleges won't give up legacy admissions

A study of 16 years of admissions data at one elite college reveals that alumni children are more likely to matriculate and donate

hechingerreport.org

…yet schools that have done away with legacy admissions do not appear to have suffered financially for doing so.

Six of the top 10 universities in the world no longer consider legacy when evaluating applicantsâhere's why

The recent $25 million college cheating scandal has sparked debate about the legal yet unethical ways in which wealthy students are given advantages including the use of legacy status in admissions.

www.cnbc.com

In addition, legacy admissions have a rather ugly history behind them, racist and anti-semitic.

Legacy College Admissions Come Under Fire In New Report

Legacy admissions - the practice where a college gives preferential admissions treatment to the children of its alumni - is facing intense criticism in a new report that documents the extent of the practice and calls for policies that would curtail or even end it.

www.forbes.com

The practice of giving admission preference to legacy applicants has a long history, extending back to the 1920s, when some colleges began to use the practice as a backdoor strategy for limiting the number of Jewish, minority and immigrant students by giving preference to alumni’s children who were seldom Jewish, people of color or immigrants.

Legacy admissions can easily be viewed as racist in nature, both from their initiation and in their practice now. Legacy admissions are a high percentage of all admissions in these elite institutions 33% to 14% overall (according to the below article). Because few Blacks ever get admitted, few Blacks (and other minorities) become donors and legacy students.

You argue that it makes sense to give special preferences to legacy admits for financial gain, yet there is a less tangible but none the less measurable financial gain in having a diverse student body that reflects back on the institution in terms of employment, corporate donations and reputation.

The Economic Imperative Of Achieving Diversity

www.forbes.com

Within the higher education community, the term "diversity" often reflects the array of student backgrounds, experiences, perspectives and characteristics that add to the mix of college campuses. Research has confirmed numerous benefits associated with a diverse learning environment. Diversity enhances the educational experience, fostering students' academic and social growth. It encourages students to think critically, enhances communication skills and fosters civic engagement.

Diversity also strengthens the workforce and enhances America's economic competitiveness. In a landmark 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling involving University of Michigan diversity policies, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor observed that the benefits of diversity to education and the workforce "are not theoretical but real, as major American businesses have made clear that the skills needed in today's increasingly global marketplace can only be developed through exposure to widely diverse people, cultures, ideas, and viewpoints."

Likewise, business leaders have sung the benefits of diversity for the workforce. In an amicus brief filed during the University of Michigan case, General Motors stated that "to succeed in this increasingly diverse environment, American businesses must select leaders who possess cross-cultural competence--the capacities to interact with and to understand the experiences of, and multiplicity of perspectives held by, persons of different races, ethnicities, and cultural histories."

Education within diverse learning environments prepares students to become good citizens and good workers in a fast-paced, globally interconnected world. Achieving diversity on college campuses and in the workforce does not require quotas, preferences, set-asides or the inclusion of unqualified applications, as some claim. Achieving diversity leads to an increase in our nation's human capital, thereby promoting a stronger workforce and more engaged citizenry.

Given the benefits of diversity to the institution, and the fact that unqualified candidates are still denied admission, it seems to me you would not have a problem with it if you are ok with the primarily white and historically racist/anti-Semitic legacy admissions.

Also, it needs to be pointed out that minority admits are not unqualified. They still must meet the stringent admission requirements of the institution.

That’s because discrimination according to class is legal. Discrimination according to race is illegal.

You seem to be under the impression that I have somehow benefited by class. I have not. So then I am competing with all the non-legacies - and thus discriminated against twice. IOW, the non-legacy blacks get benefit of their color, but non-legacy whites with superior scores and grades get last consideration. How is that fair?

 

[Lisa558]

Standards are not lowered, they have to meet the same academic standards to be accepted.

You can have diversity AND merit.

Of course they are lowered. Did not TJ High School eliminate its stringent entrance exam because so few blacks were scoring well enough to get in - and the objective was to get more in? How is THAT not lowering standards?

 

[Lisa558]

There are maybe 5 or 6 a year, and include Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, multi-racial people. Without question, they all have merit. Some have very compelling life stories as well.

How I got into 8 Ivy Leagues and 13 other schools

Afro-Guyanese student Kelly Hyles got into 21 colleges. Here's how the Queens-based 17-year-old did it.

money.cnn.com

Kelly Hyles got into all eight Ivy League schools, plus MIT, Tufts, Johns Hopkins ... the list literally goes on.​

In fact, Hyles, a 17-year-old who lives in Queens, got 21 acceptance letters from colleges around the country.


While she's a straight A student, she's the first to admit that getting into so many schools didn't come without a lot of hard work.

Her studiousness is ingrained in her: Hyles spent the first decade of her life in a small village called Vryheid's Lust in Guyana.

"They were a bit more serious about school," said Hyles of kids from her village. "Teachers are allowed to beat you -- It wasn't anything severe, but it keeps kids in check." She moved to the U.S. when she was 11.


Hyles lives with her mother, who has set an example of what hard work looks like. Her mom works two jobs -- she's a home aide and a certified nursing assistant. Hyles commutes an hour and a half every day to the High School for Math, Science and Engineering in Harlem, one of New York's nine specialized high schools.

"It's required a lot of sacrifices," she said.

And there are many just as if not more impressive stories of whites who did NOT get in because of discrimination against whites (and Asians) and in favor of blacks.

 

[Meister]

You're making the OP's point. Those kids are not getting in due to "merit" they're getting in because their parents are wealthy mega Donar alumni.

That tactic of getting in through quid pro quo would work just as well as for the Black parents, also.

 

[Hector12]

Standards are not lowered, they have to meet the same academic standards to be accepted.

You can have diversity AND merit

An organization that wants diversity and merit should hire or admit more Jews and Orientals.

---------

The Wall Street Journal

University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT​

Admissions tests, allegedly biased against minority students, will be phased out over five years​

By Douglas Belkin

Updated May 21, 2020

University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

The board of regents voted to stop using the SAT and ACT college admissions exams, dealing a significant blow to the multibillion-dollar college admission testing industry.

www.wsj.com

-----------

Proposition 16 is a California ballot proposition that appeared on the November 3, 2020, general election ballot, asking California voters to amend the Constitution of California to repeal Proposition 209 (1996).[2][3] Proposition 209 amended the state constitution to prohibit government institutions from considering race, sex, or ethnicity, specifically in the areas of public employment, public contracting, and public education.[4] Therefore, Proposition 209 banned the use of race- and gender-based affirmative action in California's public sector.[2][4][5]

The legislatively referred state constitutional amendment was originally introduced as California Assembly Constitutional Amendment No. 5 (ACA 5) by Democratic Assembly Members Weber, Gipson, and Santiago on January 18, 2019.[4] In June 2020, the California State Legislature passed ACA 5 on a mostly party-line vote, voting 60–14 on June 10 in the Assembly and 30–10 on June 24 in the Senate. The measure was defeated 57% to 43%.

2020 California Proposition 16 - Wikipedia

-----------

By discontinuing the use of the SAT and the ACT the University of California is violating the clearly expressed opinion of the California electorate against affirmative action.

Charles Murray has pointed out that the SAT and the ACT discriminate in favor of blacks because they over estimate black performance in college. Although blacks tend to perform less well on the tests, when blacks and whites get the same scores, blacks still tend to perform less well in college work.

 

[Coyote]

Of course they are lowered. Did not TJ High School eliminate its stringent entrance exam because so few blacks were scoring well enough to get in - and the objective was to get more in? How is THAT not lowering standards?

I’m talking about entrance requirements for universities, in particular, Ivy League.

 

[IM2]

That isn’t internaly consistent.

You are ok when there is discrimination based on class that deprives an Asian student of greater merit from that college. (By the way, Asian students are quite upset about legacy admits).

Legacy preferences in these elite institutions are overwhelmingly White. Their acceptance rate is 33% compared to 6% overall according to one article.

According to the Hechinger report, there ARE benefits to admitting legacy students (more likely to matriculate, more likely to become donors) ….

PROOF POINTS: Why elite colleges won't give up legacy admissions

A study of 16 years of admissions data at one elite college reveals that alumni children are more likely to matriculate and donate

hechingerreport.org

…yet schools that have done away with legacy admissions do not appear to have suffered financially for doing so.

Six of the top 10 universities in the world no longer consider legacy when evaluating applicantsâhere's why

The recent $25 million college cheating scandal has sparked debate about the legal yet unethical ways in which wealthy students are given advantages including the use of legacy status in admissions.

www.cnbc.com

In addition, legacy admissions have a rather ugly history behind them, racist and anti-semitic.

Legacy College Admissions Come Under Fire In New Report

Legacy admissions - the practice where a college gives preferential admissions treatment to the children of its alumni - is facing intense criticism in a new report that documents the extent of the practice and calls for policies that would curtail or even end it.

www.forbes.com

The practice of giving admission preference to legacy applicants has a long history, extending back to the 1920s, when some colleges began to use the practice as a backdoor strategy for limiting the number of Jewish, minority and immigrant students by giving preference to alumni’s children who were seldom Jewish, people of color or immigrants.

Legacy admissions can easily be viewed as racist in nature, both from their initiation and in their practice now. Legacy admissions are a high percentage of all admissions in these elite institutions 33% to 14% overall (according to the below article). Because few Blacks ever get admitted, few Blacks (and other minorities) become donors and legacy students.

You argue that it makes sense to give special preferences to legacy admits for financial gain, yet there is a less tangible but none the less measurable financial gain in having a diverse student body that reflects back on the institution in terms of employment, corporate donations and reputation.

The Economic Imperative Of Achieving Diversity

www.forbes.com

Within the higher education community, the term "diversity" often reflects the array of student backgrounds, experiences, perspectives and characteristics that add to the mix of college campuses. Research has confirmed numerous benefits associated with a diverse learning environment. Diversity enhances the educational experience, fostering students' academic and social growth. It encourages students to think critically, enhances communication skills and fosters civic engagement.

Diversity also strengthens the workforce and enhances America's economic competitiveness. In a landmark 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling involving University of Michigan diversity policies, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor observed that the benefits of diversity to education and the workforce "are not theoretical but real, as major American businesses have made clear that the skills needed in today's increasingly global marketplace can only be developed through exposure to widely diverse people, cultures, ideas, and viewpoints."

Likewise, business leaders have sung the benefits of diversity for the workforce. In an amicus brief filed during the University of Michigan case, General Motors stated that "to succeed in this increasingly diverse environment, American businesses must select leaders who possess cross-cultural competence--the capacities to interact with and to understand the experiences of, and multiplicity of perspectives held by, persons of different races, ethnicities, and cultural histories."

Education within diverse learning environments prepares students to become good citizens and good workers in a fast-paced, globally interconnected world. Achieving diversity on college campuses and in the workforce does not require quotas, preferences, set-asides or the inclusion of unqualified applications, as some claim. Achieving diversity leads to an increase in our nation's human capital, thereby promoting a stronger workforce and more engaged citizenry.

Given the benefits of diversity to the institution, and the fact that unqualified candidates are still denied admission, it seems to me you would not have a problem with it if you are ok with the primarily white and historically racist/anti-Semitic legacy admissions.

Also, it needs to be pointed out that minority admits are not unqualified. They still must meet the stringent admission requirements of the institution.

That was an awesome post Coyote! Very informative.

 

[IM2]

That tactic of getting in through quid pro quo would work just as well as for the Black parents, also.

Stop trying to talk for black people. Coyote has presented even more facts about legacy preferences, the fact is that due to longstanding preferences that have favored whites, Affirmative Action must continue. Anfd right wing whites need to quit pretending that Asians do not get considered as pasrt of affirmative action.

 

[Coyote]

And there are many just as if not more impressive stories of whites who did NOT get in because of discrimination against whites (and Asians) and in favor of blacks.

Everyone of them who were offered had merit. Those institutions wouldn’t offer it otherwise.

Several of their stories were of immigrant success in spite of difficult circumstances, much like what you relate about your family.

According to Harvard Diversity Statistics

…39.7 percent of Harvard University's enrolled student population is white, 13.7 percent of the population is Asian, 9.46 percent of the population is Hispanic or Latino, 6.56 percent of the population is black…

According to the last census, Blacks account for 12.6% of the US population and Asians 5.6%. It looks like Asians are way over represented in Harvard and under represented.

 

[Coyote]

Legacy works for all races, creeds, sexualities, etc.

it's non-discriminatory and is based on the successes of previous generations.

That is untrue. It was founded as a way of discriminating against Blacks and Jews and has little to do with “success” of prior generations. It continues to be discriminatory because to be a “legacy” you have to have a parent who was able to get in.

 

[Coyote]

An organization that wants diversity and merit should hire or admit more Jews and Orientals.

---------

The Wall Street Journal

University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT​

Admissions tests, allegedly biased against minority students, will be phased out over five years​

By Douglas Belkin

Updated May 21, 2020

University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

The board of regents voted to stop using the SAT and ACT college admissions exams, dealing a significant blow to the multibillion-dollar college admission testing industry.

www.wsj.com

-----------

Proposition 16 is a California ballot proposition that appeared on the November 3, 2020, general election ballot, asking California voters to amend the Constitution of California to repeal Proposition 209 (1996).[2][3] Proposition 209 amended the state constitution to prohibit government institutions from considering race, sex, or ethnicity, specifically in the areas of public employment, public contracting, and public education.[4] Therefore, Proposition 209 banned the use of race- and gender-based affirmative action in California's public sector.[2][4][5]

The legislatively referred state constitutional amendment was originally introduced as California Assembly Constitutional Amendment No. 5 (ACA 5) by Democratic Assembly Members Weber, Gipson, and Santiago on January 18, 2019.[4] In June 2020, the California State Legislature passed ACA 5 on a mostly party-line vote, voting 60–14 on June 10 in the Assembly and 30–10 on June 24 in the Senate. The measure was defeated 57% to 43%.

2020 California Proposition 16 - Wikipedia

-----------

By discontinuing the use of the SAT and the ACT the University of California is violating the clearly expressed opinion of the California electorate against affirmative action.

Charles Murray has pointed out that the SAT and the ACT discriminate in favor of blacks because they over estimate black performance in college. Although blacks tend to perform less well on the tests, when blacks and whites get the same scores, blacks still tend to perform less well in college work.

Why? Because you don’t like Blacks or want see them in College? Jews are White. So your idea of “diversity“ is Whites and Asians?

 

[Lisa558]

I’m talking about entrance requirements for universities, in particular, Ivy League.

Universities are doing the same thing - eliminating SAT requirements, and for the same reason: it’s hard to justify admitting blacks with scores well below whites and Asians who are rejected. So the answer is: hey, let’s just drop the test!

As far as the Ivy League, they are doing the same thing in effect by designing tests in which they can score blacks higher and Asians lower, thus at least diluting the lower SATs of blacks they admit. Are you aware that Harvard developed a subjective personality test, gave higher points to blacks for “desirable” personalities, and then rejected Asians are grounds that they’re “unlikeable”?

How would you react if blacks with near-perfect scores and grades were rejected on the basis of being “unlikeable”?

 

[Lisa558]

Everyone of them who were offered had merit. Those institutions wouldn’t offer it otherwise.

Several of their stories were of immigrant success in spite of difficult circumstances, much like what you relate about your family.

According to Harvard Diversity Statistics

…39.7 percent of Harvard University's enrolled student population is white, 13.7 percent of the population is Asian, 9.46 percent of the population is Hispanic or Latino, 6.56 percent of the population is black…

According to the last census, Blacks account for 12.6% of the US population and Asians 5.6%. It looks like Asians are way over represented in Harvard and under represented.

The percentages mean squat. That’s the whole problem: You libs think that because 13% of the U.S. is black, that 13% of Harvard should be black. To carry that asinine logic to its conclusion, that means that Harvard should go back to ”Jew limits” of 2% since Jews are only 2% of the population - despite the fact that as a group, Jews are academically superior to both blacks and non-Jewish whites.

 

[Lisa558]

Everyone of them who were offered had merit. Those institutions wouldn’t offer it otherwise.

Several of their stories were of immigrant success in spite of difficult circumstances, much like what you relate about your family.

According to Harvard Diversity Statistics

…39.7 percent of Harvard University's enrolled student population is white, 13.7 percent of the population is Asian, 9.46 percent of the population is Hispanic or Latino, 6.56 percent of the population is black…

According to the last census, Blacks account for 12.6% of the US population and Asians 5.6%. It looks like Asians are way over represented in Harvard and under represented.

Yes, but here’s what you’re missing: if there had been affirmative action in the 40s, my parents - growing up with impoverished, uneducated parents (but very loving and smart nonetheless) - may NOT have had the chance to go to college despite the fact they were both academically superior. Their places would go to a lesser-qualified blacks simply because they were black. How is that fair to bright, hard-working, motivated, high-scoring Jews from poor immigrant families?