Zone1 Let's Talk About "Merit"

[Meister]

Stop trying to talk for black people. Coyote has presented even more facts about legacy preferences, the fact is that due to longstanding preferences that have favored whites, Affirmative Action must continue. Anfd right wing whites need to quit pretending that Asians do not get considered as pasrt of affirmative action.

Not talking for black people. Money talks and is color blind.

 

[Coyote]

Universities are doing the same thing - eliminating SAT requirements, and for the same reason: it’s hard to justify admitting blacks with scores well below whites and Asians who are rejected. So the answer is: hey, let’s just drop the test!

As far as the Ivy League, they are doing the same thing in effect by designing tests in which they can score blacks higher and Asians lower, thus at least diluting the lower SATs of blacks they admit. Are you aware that Harvard developed a subjective personality test, gave higher points to blacks for “desirable” personalities, and then rejected Asians are grounds that they’re “unlikeable”?

How would you react if blacks with near-perfect scores and grades were rejected on the basis of being “unlikeable”?

GPA’s are a better predictor of success than standardized tests, around which an entire highly lucrative industry has been built.

 

[IM2]

Why? Because you don’t like Blacks or want see them in College? Jews are White. So your idea of “diversity“ is Whites and Asians?

Asians are included in Affirmative Action.

 

[IM2]

Not talking for black people. Money talks and is color blind.

Lol! The acquisition of money has not happened colorblind.

 

[Coyote]

Yes, but here’s what you’re missing: if there had been affirmative action in the 40s, my parents - growing up with impoverished, uneducated parents (but very loving and smart nonetheless) - may NOT have had the chance to go to college despite the fact they were both academically superior. Their places would go to a lesser-qualified blacks simply because they were black. How is that fair to bright, hard-working, motivated, high-scoring Jews from poor immigrant families?

Universities are doing the same thing - eliminating SAT requirements, and for the same reason: it’s hard to justify admitting blacks with scores well below whites and Asians who are rejected. So the answer is: hey, let’s just drop the test!

As far as the Ivy League, they are doing the same thing in effect by designing tests in which they can score blacks higher and Asians lower, thus at least diluting the lower SATs of blacks they admit. Are you aware that Harvard developed a subjective personality test, gave higher points to blacks for “desirable” personalities, and then rejected Asians are grounds that they’re “unlikeable”?

How would you react if blacks with near-perfect scores and grades were rejected on the basis of being “unlikeable”?

By the way forgot to add, on the personality score? It needs to go.

 

[Coyote]

Yes, but here’s what you’re missing: if there had been affirmative action in the 40s, my parents - growing up with impoverished, uneducated parents (but very loving and smart nonetheless) - may NOT have had the chance to go to college despite the fact they were both academically superior. Their places would go to a lesser-qualified blacks simply because they were black. How is that fair to bright, hard-working, motivated, high-scoring Jews from poor immigrant families?

They would still have gone to college.

 

[Hector12]

GPA’s are a better predictor of success than standardized tests, around which an entire highly lucrative industry has been built.

A high grade point average simply means that one is more intelligent than most of the people on one's school. A high grade point average at a black majority public school means much less than a high grade point average at a white Gentile school that has large minorities of Jews and Orientals.

 

[IM2]

Let me post this again.

Selective Bias​

Asian Americans, Test Scores, and Holistic Admissions​

Summary​

Selective Bias: Asian Americans, Test Scores, and Holistic Admissions evaluates the common arguments made by affirmative action critics and Students for Fair Admissions, which is suing Harvard University and has lawsuits pending against the University of North Carolina and the University of Texas at Austin over their admissions practices. The report finds no strong evidence of discrimination against Asian American applicants in admissions to highly selective colleges.

Critics claim that if colleges considered only academic merit, Asian American applicants would gain a greater number of seats. SFFA and other affirmative action critics often base their allegations on three factors:

• stagnant enrollment shares for Asian American students
• relatively low acceptance rates of Asian American applicants
• differences in SAT scores between Asian American and non–Asian American students at the most selective colleges.

We find all of these arguments to be unconvincing. Here’s why:

The Asian American Enrollment Share at the Most Selective Colleges Has Remained Stable Over the Past Decade​

The enrollment share of Asian American and Pacific Islander students at Harvard and at the 90 other most selective colleges has kept pace with their growing share of the four-year college-going population. In fact, the Asian American and Pacific Islander share of enrollments at the most selective colleges grew by 4 percentage points even while their enrollment share at all four-year colleges grew by just 2 percentage points between 1999 and 2018.

Asian American Students are More Likely to Apply to Highly Selective Colleges Regardless of Test Scores​

Among students who scored 1300 or above on the SAT, 65% of Asian American students applied to one of the most selective colleges in the country, compared to 50% of non–Asian American students. And among students who scored below 1300, 12% of Asian American students took a chance and applied to one of the most selective colleges, compared to only 5% of non–Asian American students. Since more Asian American students apply to selective colleges, they are more likely to be denied a seat, which is not evidence of bias.

(So Asians are applying to elite colleges with scores that would not qualify them at double the rate of other races and white racists are claiming that Asians are being cheated)

The Gain for Asian American Applicants Would Be Marginal in a Test-only Admissions System​

Overall, in a test-only admissions system, Asian American college applicants would gain a total of fewer than 3,000 seats at the most selective colleges, compared to the nearly 14,500 seats they typically capture in an admissions year. The share of Asian American high school students in a class attending these colleges would increase from 12% to 14%.

Many Asian American Applicants Already Benefit Greatly from Holistic Admissions​

In a test-only admissions system, 21% of Asian American students and 39% of non–Asian American students would lose their seats in the most selective colleges to students with higher test scores. While it is the case that Asian American students who would not make the cut in a test-only approach overall have higher test-scores, they are also nearly twice as likely as their non–Asian American counterparts to have the lowest scores in the selective college applicant pool.

Conclusion​

These facts combined tell us that while a test-only admissions standard would affect fewer current Asian American students than non-Asian American students, Asian American students are more likely to be among those who received the largest “boost” from holistic admissions.
So it appears that according to this study, Asians have received the most "preferences".

Selective Bias: Asian Americans, Test Scores, and Holistic Admissions - CEW Georgetown

There’s no strong evidence of discrimination against Asian American applicants in admissions to highly selective colleges.

cew.georgetown.edu

 

[Hector12]

Asians are included in Affirmative Action.

East Asians succeed without affirmative action.

---------

The Wall Street Journal

SAT Scores Fall as Gap Widens; Asians Gain​

​

By John Hechinger
Aug. 26, 2009 11:59 pm ET


High-school students' performance last year on the SAT college-entrance exam fell slightly, and the score gap generally widened between lower-performing minority groups and white and Asian-American students, raising questions about the effectiveness of national education reform efforts....

In the class of 2009, African-American students received an average critical reading score of 429, or 72 points below the general population. Math scores had a similar gap. Hispanic students’ scores also lagged but not by as much.

Asian-American students showed the most dramatic gains. In math they scored an average of 587-72 points better than the general population. Since 2008, their average math score has climbed six points.

SAT Scores Fall as Gap Widens; Asians Gain - WSJ

www.wsj.com

 

[Lisa558]

GPA’s are a better predictor of success than standardized tests, around which an entire highly lucrative industry has been built.

Nope. That’s why standardized tests were developed.

 

[Lisa558]

By the way forgot to add, on the personality score? It needs to go.

And do you agree that the reason for it in the first place - to have a way to give more points to blacks - was wrong?

 

[Lisa558]

They would still have gone to college.

How do you know? Spots were limited, and they’d have to reject SOME Jews in order to make room for lower-qualified blacks. Might have meant a “no” to my parents.

 

[Hector12]

Why? Because you don’t like Blacks or want see them in College? Jews are White. So your idea of “diversity“ is Whites and Asians?

Jews and Orientals tend to be quite a bit more intelligent than Negroes.

 

[Lisa558]

A high grade point average simply means that one is more intelligent than most of the people on one's school. A high grade point average at a black majority public school means much less than a high grade point average at a white Gentile school that has large minorities of Jews and Orientals.

Yup….and that’s the reason for the standardized tests.

 

[Hector12]

Everyone of them who were offered had merit. Those institutions wouldn’t offer it otherwise.

Several of their stories were of immigrant success in spite of difficult circumstances, much like what you relate about your family.

According to Harvard Diversity Statistics

…39.7 percent of Harvard University's enrolled student population is white, 13.7 percent of the population is Asian, 9.46 percent of the population is Hispanic or Latino, 6.56 percent of the population is black…

According to the last census, Blacks account for 12.6% of the US population and Asians 5.6%. It looks like Asians are way over represented in Harvard and under represented.

There are degrees of merit.

 

[Coyote]

And do you agree that the reason for it in the first place - to have a way to give more points to blacks - was wrong?

Where do you get the idea that was the reason for it? Based on the results, it seems there is some sort of bias that shows in the results, but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence to support the claim lit is done deliberately or to give more points to Blacks since Whites seem to benefit the most and while Blacks also benefited so did other minorities such as Hispanics.

Harvard’s cult of personality

Harvard either discriminates against Asian applicants or Asian applicants have substantially worse personalities than those of any other racial group.

thehill.com

It also has nothing to do with Affirmative Action.

Bias against Asian-American students is real. Affirmative action isn’t the problem.

We can fight stereotypes about Asian personalities while rejecting the idea that test scores are the only kind of merit.

www.vox.com

However, a week after the Times story appeared, the National Council of Asian Pacific Americans (a coalition of 34 of the leading national organizations representing various Asian-American ethnic groups) issued a statement saying that they also reviewed the Harvard data and did not find intentional or implicit bias against Asian-American applicants.

 

[Coyote]

How do you know? Spots were limited, and they’d have to reject SOME Jews in order to make room for lower-qualified blacks. Might have meant a “no” to my parents.

You have said that Black students of “lesser merit” can get admitted to another school instead of Ivy League. Of course, you are making a big assumption that they are all or even mostly “lower-qualified” to begin with.

 

[Coyote]

There are degrees of merit.

Only when you consider the merit of high achieving students to be less because of one’s race

 

[Lisa558]

You have said that Black students of “lesser merit” can get admitted to another school instead of Ivy League. Of course, you are making a big assumption that they are all or even mostly “lower-qualified” to begin with.

No. I’m going by the statistics. Two out of three blacks admitted to a prestigious college got in due to their color.

But are you saying that my parents, with their exceptionally high grades and scores, could have gone to a lesser school in order to make slots available to lower-scoring blacks kept? Why not let my parents attend the prestige school which they earned with their academic accomplishments, and let the blacks who otherwise would have taken their spots go to the lesser school for which they qualify regardless of race?

 

[Coyote]

A high grade point average simply means that one is more intelligent than most of the people on one's school. A high grade point average at a black majority public school means much less than a high grade point average at a white Gentile school that has large minorities of Jews and Orientals.

It actually doesn’t when it comes to success in College. Texas implimented a system whereby the X percent of every public highschool in the state were automatically accepted in the state college system. They found that while students from low achieving schools needed more help during their first year, they quickly caught up with their peers and matriculated at the same rate.

Standardized tests on the other hand are far less an indicator of “merit” than GPA. There is an entire industry built on helping students, who can afford it, pass those tests. In addition, well funded schools will often offer courses on how to pass the test. A reliance on using standardized as a metric actually increases inequality in terms of economic background which often translates to racial and ethnic inequalities.