Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[Moonglow]

God is murderous which refutes his ability to pass moral judgment and create a system of morality.

 

[Slade3200]

I am Catholic. Fear of hell has never been held over us. In my lifetime, I have only heard priests and sisters address hell about four times--and never as a threat. Hell is defined as being a part from God and for people who choose to be separated from God.

Catholic homilies focus not on hell, but on Jesus' teachings about loving God and loving/getting along with others. He was adamant that sins are forgiven, repentance (turning away) from sin and to God. He taught about discerning the will of God and following it.

So...since fear of hell is not being held over you, were there other reasons to reject religion or formal community worship?

Oh trust me the term godfearing is a quite literal one. I was raised Catholic as well. Was very devout for a long time. I know their teachings. My reason for not belonging anymore is quite simply a desire to experience all life has to offer and not be clouded by a fantasy. I still will go to church and read the Bible but I don’t take any of it literally.

Here is an old school sermon. You tell me of it sounds like they are holding the fear of hell over their followers heads…

Jonathan Edwards Revives Enfield, Connecticut, 1741 | The American Yawp Reader

www.americanyawp.com

 

[night_son]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

Perhaps we should take great care in passing absolute judgement on others, and even greater care still when assuming we know what is best and truest for everyone else. Consider the billions of people you exclude from heaven or spiritual salvation when you proclaim, with absolute finality, the only possible path to eternal life or to becoming a truly good person. Essentially, you have just condemned 1.8 billion Muslims to hell, 1.2 billion Hindus, 506 million Buddhists and so on and so forth.

While I agree with you concerning the lethal threat to life of militant or State enforced atheism, strictly enforced religious absolutism of any kind can be just as dangerous. For instance, how far would you go personally to convert someone to Catholicism knowing your failure to do so will cost them eternal life with Christ? What I am getting at is the mindset that religions tend to fall into where they proclaim a bunch of holy instructions for salvation and then declare they apply to EVERYONE, everywhere on the planet. Such philosophies serve only to further divide mankind into the holy and the heathen and instill hatred in both camps toward the other.

I was born Christian, baptized very young and I absolutely believe in God. I talk to God every single day and believe my prayers have saved me numerous times throughout my life. What I cannot believe in, however, is the holiness of other mortal men. Only one man was godly and he died on a cross on famous hill. A few days later, he arose from the dead, ascended into heaven and the rest is a pretty well known story. But as for men deciding who is and who is not holy . . . no.

Can an atheist be morally "good" or upright? I would say no. I would say no because I do not believe in voluntary atheism; all men cling to God whether or not they realize they're doing it and God dwells within every atom of their being. I don't need some wicked mortal acolyte or priest to convince me of that or show me the path.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Doesn't matter.

GOD lives in all of us.

That's simply not the case, skye.

God doesn't inhabit the ungodly. Here is the difference between the two:
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. ^God lives in them.

These two passages pretty much obliterate the premise that God dwells in everyone:
“Remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.”

“They [the unregenerate Gentiles] are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.”

 

[The Irish Ram]

I still will go to church and read the Bible but I don’t take any of it literally

Then why bother?

 

[Slade3200]

Then why bother?

Lessons can be learned in all aspects in life. There’s plenty of good stuff to learn from religions. I’m just not one to fall into the rabbit hole of absolute belief.

 

[Mashmont]

For the sake of this debate it does matter. you can’t use a Bible passage to back up the validity of a moral/religious argument. It is meaningless to those that do not believe in the accuracy of the document

And herein lies the danger of atheism for atheists. They deny truths, and then face the negative consequences just the same. It's akin to saying you don't believe in gravity, then thinking you won't suffer the consequences if you jump from an 11-story building.

 

[Mashmont]

Oh trust me the term godfearing is a quite literal one. I was raised Catholic as well. Was very devout for a long time. I know their teachings. My reason for not belonging anymore is quite simply a desire to experience all life has to offer and not be clouded by a fantasy. I still will go to church and read the Bible but I don’t take any of it literally.

Here is an old school sermon. You tell me of it sounds like they are holding the fear of hell over their followers heads…

Jonathan Edwards Revives Enfield, Connecticut, 1741 | The American Yawp Reader

www.americanyawp.com

So which god have you substituted for the real One you discarded? Whichever one is was is far inferior.

 

[Feeding Crows]

People have to realize what immorality means.

And you only need to look no further than what Christianity has done to people, to make you believe in it today.

 

[Feeding Crows]

So let's talk morals and ethics. I think many of you have them, but you don't know why. You attribute it to religion, but they actually taught you the opposite by example .

 

[Mashmont]

People have to realize what immorality means.

And you only need to look no further than what Christianity has done to people, to make you believe in it today.

Christianity has done more good for more people than anyone can imagine. It is the foundation for treating people right.

 

[Feeding Crows]

Morals and ethics actually argue against religious history. We would never do what they did, to get here. It's totally terrible.

 

[Feeding Crows]

Christianity has done more good for more people than anyone can imagine. It is the foundation for treating people right.

Do you understand how you became Christian?

 

[Feeding Crows]

Everybody does good. No species could survive otherwise.

 

[surada]

Then why bother?

Literalism is pretty new.

Dispensationalism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Feeding Crows]

Except religious humans. We're the only ones who want to kill each other.

 

[Mashmont]

Do you understand how you became Christian?

Yes.

Everybody does good.

Yes they do, to at least some degree. The problem is very few do all the things all the time that the Galatians passage prescribes, without the help of prayer to God.

Here's an example. I don't know of a single atheist who believes sex outside of marriage, passionate unmarried kissing and petting, and masturbation are immoral. Yet they are sins, even grave sins which can keep you out of Heaven. For devout Christians who believe these things are wrong, they are still difficult to overcome and we have prayer and the Sacraments to help us.

 

[Feeding Crows]

So thankfully, I'm atheist, i have no hatred.

 

[Feeding Crows]

Yes.

Yes they do, to at least some degree. The problem is very few do all the things the Galatians passage prescribes without the help of prayer to God.

Here's an example. I don't know of a single atheist who believes sex outside of marriage, passionate unmarried kissing and petting, and masturbation are immoral. Yet they are sins, even grave sins which can keep you out of Heaven. For devout Christians who believe these things are wrong, they are still difficult to overcome and we have prayer and the Sacraments to help us. I myself don't have a problem those anymore since I am married. Marriage takes a lot of pressure off. So does age.

whoa, back up a moment. what about Priests who molest children? How does your prayer forgive them?

And btw, you have no idea why you believe what you believe. You were just born into the religion. Do you know the history?

 

[Mashmont]

Except religious humans. We're the only ones who want to kill each other.

Think again. Atheist regimes murdered 150 million in the last century alone.