Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[Blues Man]

Doesn't matter.

GOD lives in all of us.

No I'm pretty sure it's only me inside my head

 

[Feeding Crows]

 

[Meriweather]

Oh trust me the term godfearing is a quite literal one. I was raised Catholic as well.

If you were raised Catholic as well, then you learned at a very young age that 'Fear of the Lord' did not mean we were to be frightened--it means that we treat and approach God with reverent awe. (Dig into the etymology of the biblical use of the word translated as 'fear'.)

 

[Feeding Crows]

Hi Meri

But let's get serious. Where are your ancestors from? I'm talking 1000 years ago. Where are you from?

 

[Meriweather]

My reason for not belonging anymore is quite simply a desire to experience all life has to offer and not be clouded by a fantasy. I still will go to church and read the Bible but I don’t take any of it literally.

I wasn't raised to take the Bible literally. Not even my Catholic grandmother was raised to take the Bible literally. Are you aware that only thirty percent of the population take the Bible literally. (Down from around forty percent in my grandmother's day.)

Hebrew does not translate well into English and the Greek and the Latin are not perfect either. What dismays me is that people read the English, shrug and dismiss it as fantasy. Rabbis taught the Bible is to be studied not read--and a life-long study at that. That is the second problem. People decide they can read and understand. Not only does the Bible take study in and of itself, so do the languages, histories, and cultures of that time. A study of literature is very helpful.

I am not talking about you here, because you appear to have read and mulled over the Bible. But so many today do a scan reading through the Bible and jump to shallow conclusions. Some conclude everyone has always taken the Bible literally, which is not the case. Some conclude is is simply a book of fantasy or fairy tales. We should be able to read through the Bible and identify Just So stories (parts of Genesis); plays (Job); folklore, legend, etc. This does not diminish any account--indeed it does much to clarify the intent, purpose, and teaching/instruction being given.

 

[Feeding Crows]

I understand the misinterpretations.

Can you understand how much that has happened since the original Sumerian and Babylonian texts 6000 years ago. The OT is based on that, but totally warped.

And that's the basis of your religion later on, 2000 yrs later.

 

[Feeding Crows]

can you imagine what would happen in the "telephone game" over 2000 years?

 

[Meriweather]

But let's get serious. Where are your ancestors from? I'm talking 1000 years ago. Where are you from?

You are talking about around the year 1022? I haven't pursued my genealogies quite that far, but judging from the parts I have scanned through to the 1500s, at least some of them seem to have been in Germanic territory for quite some time, many others in France, then we tend to come from Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the British Isles and Ireland. My husband's genealogy is rooted in the Norwegian countries.

Don't tell me! I am betting you are going to tell me that they were either forced into Catholicism or massacred villages to force others into Catholicism. Correct? Fast forward to Colonial times in the US when the settlers and the Indians periodically massacred each other. At least one of my ancestors was involved in at least one of those. Territory was disputed then and it is now. Back then, people either accepted the new regime (including their religion) or paid the price. That didn't even begin to change until the Enlightenment--and even then it was a slow process to separate Church and State.

 

[Feeding Crows]

Yes, your ancestors were pagan. The men got murdered, and the women got raped and the children were forced to be Catholic. That's why you're Catholic.

It's not because of "god", it's because of murder and rape and ignorance!

So all the good things you do today are great, and continue doing them. I'm just pointing out where it came from. You do it because you're a good person. Not because of your religion.

 

[sparky]

Since Christianity is voluntary, how can it be about control?

Because we've freedom OF religion , not freedom FROM it Mash



~S~

 

[Meriweather]

And that's the basis of your religion later on, 2000 yrs later.

The basis of my religion is to seek and find God.

 

[Meriweather]

can you imagine what would happen in the "telephone game" over 2000 years?

As someone who has often used the "telephone game", it is way overrated. Almost always the message given at the beginning is the same given at the end. When is it not? When some class clown who knows how it is "supposed" to end changes things up.

 

[bodecea]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

So...you admit that you can't behave and be an good person without the threats of a sky fantasy threatening you?

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, your ancestors were pagan. The men got murdered, and the women got raped and the children were forced to be Catholic. That's why you're Catholic.

It's not because of "god", it's because of murder and rape and ignorance!

So all the good things you do today are great, and continue doing them. I'm just pointing out where it came from. You do it because you're a good person. Not because of your religion.

Obviously, I know more history than you, because I recognize/see there is more to change than a single event. A lot happens in every generation. Not everyone is affected by the same event or even endures the same event.

All the good comes from a man from Galilee and not all the horrors you present (and there were some) changes that. Many people learned about that man from Galilee and were attracted to his teachings and there was no need apply force. Learn more history. Any honest person sees that there has always been more to religion than force.

 

[Meriweather]

So...you admit that you can't behave and be an good person without the threats of a sky fantasy threatening you?

So many latch onto the idea people only believe because they feel threatened. I don't know--maybe there are a few places where threats are used. And maybe those are the places that produce atheists who know they do not need to be threatened.

There is another avenue the majority of Christians travel. It is the Way of ideals and perfection--not traveled because of threats, but embraced because striving for ideals and perfection is a joyful, glorious way of living, even when we fall short. We pick ourselves up and try again.

So many settle for "good enough" and as I am overly fond of saying, "Good enough never is."

 

[Feeding Crows]

As someone who has often used the "telephone game", it is way overrated. Almost always the message given at the beginning is the same given at the end. When is it not? When some class clown who knows how it is "supposed" to end changes things up.

Please Meri, I like you! But that is not a correct comment. Even if it is, consider it over 2000 years of story-telling. There wasn't even a telephone-game back then. What the Sumerians wrote, and what the OT interpreted where two similar things, but also very very different things.

 

[Feeding Crows]

Obviously, I know more history than you, because I recognize/see there is more to change than a single event. A lot happens in every generation. Not everyone is affected by the same event or even endures the same event.

All the good comes from a man from Galilee and not all the horrors you present (and there were some) changes that. Many people learned about that man from Galilee and were attracted to his teachings and there was no need apply force. Learn more history. Any honest person sees that there has always been more to religion than force.

You are denying the horrors that caused you to be Catholic. The Vatican has apologized for some of the evils they did. Can you do the same?

There were not "some" horrors. It was a pure kill-em-alll situation over hundreds of years.

My ancestors are from Spain. The reason I was born Catholic is because my ancestors had to believe, or die.

 

[Feeding Crows]

List of apologies made by Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Meriweather]

Please Meri, I like you! But that is not a correct comment. Even if it is, consider it over 2000 years of story-telling. There wasn't even a telephone-game back then. What the Sumerians wrote, and what the OT interpreted where two similar things, but also very very different things.

It is a correct comment as I am a teacher who plays that "game" with class after class. And class after class ends with the beginning comment.

Now, we do agree that the different accounts have the same roots and are told from very different perspectives. People learn from their experiences--and the same experience result in everyone having learning like lessons--people being unique and having different perspectives of any incident.

Why do you think people should be bothered by different accounts of the same event? Ever read historical novels or even journals describing the same event? They are nowhere near the same, but you seem to think everyone should be shocked and horrified that the Hebrew portrayal of a flood is different from an earlier account. Are you equally horrified that Rifles for Watie is so different from Gone with the Wind?

 

[Slade3200]

And herein lies the danger of atheism for atheists. They deny truths, and then face the negative consequences just the same. It's akin to saying you don't believe in gravity, then thinking you won't suffer the consequences if you jump from an 11-story building.

What truths are they ignoring?