Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[Feeding Crows]

You were celtic religion prior to getting wiped out. You were pagan.

 

[Slade3200]

Have you gotten to the part where the Bible reminds us that God's ways are not our ways?

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I have chinchillas. I do talk to them, but I have a sneaking suspicion they haven't a clue that I love them and find them adorable. However, they know exactly what I mean when I shake the raisin box. (And that probably doesn't translate into the concept of love.)

Catholic school taught me that God did not literally write or dictate anything in the Bible. Instead, the Bible is inspired by God, but written by man. Further, it has been translated by man. The best we can do is look for the ideal behind the account, the lesson the original author had for his original audience. I also recommend accepting that no one should consider everything in the Bible is about them. For example, we don't all need to build arks. Or go to Nineveh.

Exactly, so the Bible is mans interpretation of God from 2000 years ago. Again, an amazing compilation of writings but clearly not without flaws. If you acknowledge that flaws exist from both inaccuracies in interpretation and translation then you can’t fully trust anything that is said. You can study it and take what rings true. But to take a quote and call it fact or the word of God… I don’t think so. It’s the word of man’s interpretation of God

 

[Meriweather]

It’s not my version. I didn’t write the sermon. But it shows how the church used to portray God and this mighty being holding his followers over the pit of hell. One slip from us mortals and we get dropped into the fiery pit for eternity. It’s a perfect example of how the structure of the religion is set up to yield fear and power over people which is why religious groups, especially the Catholics have yielded so much power and money through our history.

Ever read all the Sermons of St. Frances de Sales, Saint John of the Cross, or the writings of St. Teresa of Avila. Choose any of the Saints and you will find very little on hell. Probably amounts to four homilies in a life time. I did not claim there were no sermons on hell--merely that they are quite rare. Try to pile all the homilies on hell next to the pile of homilies on Jesus and other scriptures.

I have a feeling some choose the pile of homilies on hell because there is so much less to read.

Even centuries ago, the Saints were noting how little impact even the best Churches had over the population and how people had to discover so much on their own. The Church had its hands full simply teaching the introductory lessons. The same is true today.

 

[Slade3200]

Does experiencing a rainbow or the night sky inspire change in your life? Does the rainbow or a starry night make you a better person?

Absolutely, any number of moments/experiences can be inspiring, uplifting, or bring clarity and understanding about life. I find nature to be very cathartic and enlightening. But people can find these thing through anything. Art, parenthood, friendships, animals, charity work. Etc etc

 

[Mashmont]

I see double rainbows every day.

LSD will do that.

 

[Meriweather]

Stop blaming others for the horrors you promote.

Grin. But I do not promote horror. Haven't you noted that it is your own posts that continually bring horror into discussions?

My own theme is to seek and find God.

 

[Feeding Crows]

You can't argue with Meri.

She's too nice of a person to curse out, and she will not let go of her religious fanaticism.

So just let it go.

 

[Meriweather]

I showed that the pope apologized. For a little of the shit.

Did anybody read that?

The moment it came out, years ago. I am quite familiar with it, so I didn't need to read it for the umpteenth time. What did you think of it? I am going to guess you thought, "Too little too late." How close am I?

 

[Meriweather]

"Conscience is a burden we choose to bear. Morality is the lie we tell ourselves to make its bearing easier. There have been many times in my life when I have wished it was not so. But it is so."- Nicomo Cosca

I see conscience more as guidance than a burden, quite similar to emotions. Many strong emotions are indicators that something needs to be done.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

This fails as an appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[SweetSue92]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

It is possible, actually, for atheists and the unreligious to be moral (yet unsaved). That is because God's law (morality) is "written on their hearts". (Hebrews 8:10). If this were not so there could be no talk of morality whatsoever.

What the Bible says is that no one seeks God apart from the Spirit.

 

[Feeding Crows]

The moment it came out, years ago. I am quite familiar with it, so I didn't need to read it for the umpteenth time. What did you think of it? I am going to guess you thought, "Too little too late." How close am I?

Way too little, way too late. Didn't even address the horrors of the Crusades or the Inquisition. It was not a happy time back then. Your Santa Claus religion was not very happy for women and children back then.

That's when they made you believe.

 

[SweetSue92]

Doesn't matter.

GOD lives in all of us.

We are all made in the image of God, absolutely. God does not "live" in all of us--only those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

For proof, see the Uvalde shooter. Did God "live" in him? I say no.

 

[Meriweather]

You were celtic religion prior

Absolutely! And proud of it. Still, with choices set before me (came from a family of many and no beliefs), I still choose Catholicism. If Catholicism was off the table, I'd choose Judaism. Still proud of my Celtic and pagan ancestry, and proud I married one of those heathen Vikings.

 

[The Irish Ram]

no, that's ridiculous. But Christians killed all of your ancestors and forced you to be Christian, or die. That's absolute truth.

Nope. That is absolute bullshit. For hundreds of years our Christian ancestors were tortured and killed by nonbelievers in an effort to wipe them out. Mine persevered. And no one forces me to do anything...

 

[Feeding Crows]

If anybody quotes the bible again, I will kick their ass. Stop it!

 

[Mashmont]

It is possible, actually, for atheists and the unreligious to be moral (yet unsaved). That is because God's law (morality) is "written on their hearts". (Hebrews 8:10). If this were not so there could be no talk of morality whatsoever.

What the Bible says is that no one seeks God apart from the Spirit.

How many atheists do you know consider sex outside marriage and/or masturbation immoral?
I say zero.

 

[SweetSue92]

Perhaps we should take great care in passing absolute judgement on others, and even greater care still when assuming we know what is best and truest for everyone else. Consider the billions of people you exclude from heaven or spiritual salvation when you proclaim, with absolute finality, the only possible path to eternal life or to becoming a truly good person. Essentially, you have just condemned 1.8 billion Muslims to hell, 1.2 billion Hindus, 506 million Buddhists and so on and so forth.

While I agree with you concerning the lethal threat to life of militant or State enforced atheism, strictly enforced religious absolutism of any kind can be just as dangerous. For instance, how far would you go personally to convert someone to Catholicism knowing your failure to do so will cost them eternal life with Christ? What I am getting at is the mindset that religions tend to fall into where they proclaim a bunch of holy instructions for salvation and then declare they apply to EVERYONE, everywhere on the planet. Such philosophies serve only to further divide mankind into the holy and the heathen and instill hatred in both camps toward the other.

I was born Christian, baptized very young and I absolutely believe in God. I talk to God every single day and believe my prayers have saved me numerous times throughout my life. What I cannot believe in, however, is the holiness of other mortal men. Only one man was godly and he died on a cross on famous hill. A few days later, he arose from the dead, ascended into heaven and the rest is a pretty well known story. But as for men deciding who is and who is not holy . . . no.

Can an atheist be morally "good" or upright? I would say no. I would say no because I do not believe in voluntary atheism; all men cling to God whether or not they realize they're doing it and God dwells within every atom of their being. I don't need some wicked mortal acolyte or priest to convince me of that or show me the path.

I'm an evangelical Christian and (mostly) agree with this. No one is saved apart from the Spirit of God. Someone can be saved wholly apart from any preaching; others can be preached to for 50 years and never be saved. At any rate, no man ever saves another, except for Jesus Christ. All Christians do is share the news. That's it.

 

[Feeding Crows]

Absolutely! And proud of it. Still, with choices set before me (came from a family of many and no beliefs), I still choose Catholicism. If Catholicism was off the table, I'd choose Judaism. Still proud of my Celtic and pagan ancestry, and proud I married one of those heathen Vikings.

You never chose. Your ancestors were pagan, and they got killed. You married a pagan The survivors had to believe in Catholicism or die. That's why you believe in what you believe today. Why is that the absolute true religion?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Unfortunately, many reject God.

There is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists; religion and ‘god’ are creations of man – there’s nothing to ‘reject.’

Humans are therefore perfectly capable of being moral and good absent religious doctrine and dogma.

Indeed, the most infamous manifestations of immorality and evil have been the consequence of religion and ‘god.’

And individuals free from religion are among those the most moral and good.