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How many atheists do you know consider sex outside marriage and/or masturbation immoral?
I say zero.
That's bs, you need to look back further.Nope. That is absolute bullshit. For hundreds of years our Christian ancestors were tortured and killed by nonbelievers in an effort to wipe them out. Mine persevered. And no one forces me to do anything...
There is no ‘god’ as perceived by theists; religion and ‘god’ are creations of man – there’s nothing to ‘reject.’
Humans are therefore perfectly capable of being moral and good absent religious doctrine and dogma.
Indeed, the most infamous manifestations of immorality and evil have been the consequence of religion and ‘god.’
And individuals free from religion are among those the most moral and good.
Pretty much what I was taught. All words were filtered by man. That is a given. Further, outside of Hebrew, the meanings of words evolve and change. Plus, words can be twisted to fit any agenda. That is why I believe it vital to know what was on the original agenda of the original writer. And to understand that, one must read up on the history, culture, and language of the time.But to take a quote and call it fact or the word of God… I don’t think so. It’s the word of man’s interpretation of God
Please do not do a bible quote again. I will not say this again.Okay but what is your scale of "moral" and "immoral"? You realize Jesus Christ Himself, upon being called the Good teacher, said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone..." Luke 18:19
If you are saying that non-Christians do not live by Christian precepts--well you are right. Does that mean they are "immoral"? Not necessarily. And Jesus pointed this out many times.
As do many. The question is do they effect a change in how you go about life?Absolutely, any number of moments/experiences can be inspiring, uplifting, or bring clarity and understanding about life. I find nature to be very cathartic and enlightening.
No, don't let it go! I enjoy these discussions with you! Yes, sometimes it is rightly suggested I take off the rose-colored glasses, but I see so much good in the world, and how beauty can grow out of a mess.You can't argue with Meri.
She's too nice of a person to curse out, and she will not let go of her religious fanaticism.
So just let it go.
Pretty much what I was taught. All words were filtered by man. That is a given. Further, outside of Hebrew, the meanings of words evolve and change. Plus, words can be twisted to fit any agenda. That is why I believe it vital to know what was on the original agenda of the original writer. And to understand that, one must read up on the history, culture, and language of the time.
Even in a lifetime, we cannot cover it all--only a small fraction at best.
But you must see the flaw in that argument… again if it was truly the word of God then it would have the ability to transcend all of that. The fact that it was all written through the filter of man makes it no different than any other writing. Take the book Siddhartha for example. A story written by man about a spiritual journey. God can be found in this writing just as potently as the Bible. Agree or no?Pretty much what I was taught. All words were filtered by man. That is a given. Further, outside of Hebrew, the meanings of words evolve and change. Plus, words can be twisted to fit any agenda. That is why I believe it vital to know what was on the original agenda of the original writer. And to understand that, one must read up on the history, culture, and language of the time.
Even in a lifetime, we cannot cover it all--only a small fraction at best.
I love you Meri, and i love how you post. Though I disagree heavily!No, don't let it go! I enjoy these discussions with you! Yes, sometimes it is rightly suggested I take off the rose-colored glasses, but I see so much good in the world, and how beauty can grow out of a mess.
The most impactful things that effect how we live our lives come from interactions with others. That’s were we learn, observe and reflect on the “cause and effect” of life. Sometimes we read literature or watch movies and study other peoples experiences to learn these life lessons. This is why the Bible and church is so impactful. It merges everything and applies a focus and intent. Not a bad thing at all in it purest form. But also not the One and Only way to get there.As do many. The question is do they effect a change in how you go about life?
I argue that rainbows can and did. The rainbow was pretty much credited with such back in Biblical times.
Still, much of the time, they serve only as a reprieve from the usual daily life, but do not effect permanent change.
Have you done an intense and thorough investigation of the Inquisitions? Most of them ended well for those who insisted they be tried by the Church not the State. The lone exception to this was the Spanish Inquisition which was indeed a horror. All but a handful of deaths that occurred during that Inquisition was the work of one man. I would argue he was one of the early serial killers, but sometimes I get a bit overly dramatic. Still, Tomás de Torquemada, is considered one of the worst psychopaths of all time.Way too little, way too late. Didn't even address the horrors of the Crusades or the Inquisition. It was not a happy time back then. Your Santa Claus religion was not very happy for women and children back then.
That's when they made you believe.
The Catholic Church does not claim it is the only religion. Through scripture and Apostolic tradition, its claim is staying true to Jesus' life and teachings. Jesus promised his way was the Way of Eternal Life--and in the reach of everyone. The Catholic Church teaches this way--and this way only. Christ did not give his followers and successors the authority to teach Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. They were to teach the Gospel of Jesus the way he lived it. That is all the authority they had/have.Why is that the absolute true religion?
Impossible to know. How can we know how dolphins perceive creation? We are told they are highly intelligent.Except Humans that believe in religions. We're the only ones...
Your magical chants and incantations hold no power, shaman.One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.
This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:
Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.
My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.
So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.
