Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[Meriweather]

Eternal life is inherent in our existence or it isn’t. I don’t believe the way we live this life has any impact on what eternity holds for us.

I have a friend who advocated the the snowflake theory. This theory is that once we die, like all forms of water evaporate, mix together, and come down in another form, the same thing happens to souls/spirits. We are all mixed together and then return different spirit, different form.

I am more the mind that this life is about us creating who we are. For example, in this life one of the things I do is teach. In the early form of me, what I do is teach. A second or third rate analogy or example: Perhaps, in a higher life teaching won't be what I do, it will be who I am.

 

[Vastator]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

 

[Vastator]

"If there was a God, the world seemed exactly the way it would be if there wasn’t one".- Nicomo Coska

 

[Slade3200]

I have a friend who advocated the the snowflake theory. This theory is that once we die, like all forms of water evaporate, mix together, and come down in another form, the same thing happens to souls/spirits. We are all mixed together and then return different spirit, different form.

I am more the mind that this life is about us creating who we are. For example, in this life one of the things I do is teach. In the early form of me, what I do is teach. A second or third rate analogy or example: Perhaps, in a higher life teaching won't be what I do, it will be who I am.

All very nice thoughts and philosophies and I have no problem discussing them and even putting belief into one. It’s just obvious though that belief is an act of faith and personal preference. Not fact and universal truth.

 

[WinterBorn]

The supposition in the OP is absolute nonsense. Atheists are moral by choice, not because of threats of eternal torture.

I know plenty of atheists that are more moral than many Xtians I know. I have never cheated on a spouse or significant other. I have known too many "good Christians" who have cheated many times.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Think again. Atheist regimes murdered 150 million in the last century alone.

Crow has no clue. He thinks everybody does good except the religious church goers that commit all the murders...
It's an uhuh, nauh conversation at best with him. He reminds me of the rich man begging Abraham to go tell his brothers to repent, because it's all true. Unfortunatly, the rich man found out to late. Hopefully, Crow will wise up before he ends up next to that guy...

 

[The Irish Ram]

The supposition in the OP is absolute nonsense. Atheists are moral by choice, not because of threats of eternal torture.

I know plenty of atheists that are more moral than many Xtians I know. I have never cheated on a spouse or significant other. I have known too many "good Christians" who have cheated many times.

And vice versa. As far as morality goes, some have lots, some have some and some have none.
Morality has nothing to do with salvation...

 

[Vastator]

And vice versa. As far as morality goes, some have lots, some have some and some have none.
Morality has nothing to do with salvation...

Salvation, is the fundamentally false premise, that one is inherently flawd. Yet societies have risen, and fallen absent the desert peoples contributions...

 

[Ringtone]

Perhaps we should take great care in passing absolute judgement on others, and even greater care still when assuming we know what is best and truest for everyone else. Consider the billions of people you exclude from heaven or spiritual salvation when you proclaim, with absolute finality, the only possible path to eternal life or to becoming a truly good person. Essentially, you have just condemned 1.8 billion Muslims to hell, 1.2 billion Hindus, 506 million Buddhists and so on and so forth.

While I agree with you concerning the lethal threat to life of militant or State enforced atheism, strictly enforced religious absolutism of any kind can be just as dangerous. For instance, how far would you go personally to convert someone to Catholicism knowing your failure to do so will cost them eternal life with Christ? What I am getting at is the mindset that religions tend to fall into where they proclaim a bunch of holy instructions for salvation and then declare they apply to EVERYONE, everywhere on the planet. Such philosophies serve only to further divide mankind into the holy and the heathen and instill hatred in both camps toward the other.

I was born Christian, baptized very young and I absolutely believe in God. I talk to God every single day and believe my prayers have saved me numerous times throughout my life. What I cannot believe in, however, is the holiness of other mortal men. Only one man was godly and he died on a cross on famous hill. A few days later, he arose from the dead, ascended into heaven and the rest is a pretty well known story. But as for men deciding who is and who is not holy . . . no.

Can an atheist be morally "good" or upright? I would say no. I would say no because I do not believe in voluntary atheism; all men cling to God whether or not they realize they're doing it and God dwells within every atom of their being. I don't need some wicked mortal acolyte or priest to convince me of that or show me the path.

So truth is relative?

 

[Feeding Crows]

Crow has no clue. He thinks everybody does good except the religious church goers that commit all the murders...
It's an uhuh, nauh conversation at best with him. He reminds me of the rich man begging Abraham to go tell his brothers to repent, because it's all true. Unfortunatly, the rich man found out to late. Hopefully, Crow will wise up before he ends up next to that guy...

Nah, I'm good. Not rich, and definitely wouldn't tell anybody to do anything. I'm just worried that you folks will kill us all.

 

[Feeding Crows]

In the name of Santa Claus.

 

[Ringtone]

In fact, the philosophy of Objectivism (which rejects supernatural dieties) is one that specifically rejects moral relativism and its precepts are quite specific.

Did you understand or follow the point in my response? I'm making a distinction between what is claimed to be the case, in this instance relative to Objectivism's foundational assertion existence exists, and reality.

 

[Vastator]

Did you understand or follow the point in my response? I'm making a distinction between what is claimed to be the case, in this instance relative to Objectivism's foundational assertion existence exists, and reality.

Does your objection matter in our Masters , eye..?

 

[Ringtone]

People can be ethical and moral without God and unethical and immoral with God. I've seen it both ways.

He's making a theological distinction between the operationally apparent goodness of actions and the ontologically actual goodness of nature that would have readily been understood by most Americans a hundred years ago vis-a-vis biblically informed divine and natural law. That so many Americans today, including conservatives, fail to grasp this Judeo-Christian insight about human nature and, thus, humanity's utter dependence on God to overcome evil is tragic.

Objectivism, for example, correctly holds that the incontrovertible axioms of human consciousness do not prove that the axioms are ultimately true beyond human consciousness but that they are the inescapable basis of all human knowledge, albeit, sans identifying the ontological basis of the axioms themselves beyond human apprehension. Why that's problematical should be self-evident.

To understand what I'm getting at requires further discussion and thought.

 

[Leo123]

Humans are neither all good nor all bad. Humans are capable of great good or great evil as defined by their social ethos. IOW actions that are acceptable for one society (or tribe) may not be acceptable to another society. Belief in one God can bring different societies together because God's moral objectives are understood. Objective morality does not need laws to guide folks as to how to treat others. Laws are for punishing those who transgress a society's basic moral structure. Removing God and objective morality undermines a society by breaking down the common elements of morality that everyone understands.

Atheists are concrete in their belief that there is no God but, they miss the point. Belief in a higher power brings people ethically and morally together so that their evil thoughts do not turn into action. IOW it is not necessary to prove a physical 'higher power' or 'creator' belief is all that is needed.

 

[Ringtone]

Does your objection matter in our Masters , eye..?

Do you mean Master's as in the possessive form and who is this Master?

 

[Mashmont]

Let's revisit the list from the Galatians passage. I've never known a single atheist that does not engage in one or more of these vices systematically. It's not just a matter of an occasional slip up. I'm talking about sex outside marriage and masturbation in particular. Atheists doom themselves because they don't even admit these things are immoral.

Again, these vices are hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid in their entirety. How easy is it to speak ill of someone? Some little remark that will lower someone's opinion of another. Some snide remark instead of a kind and gentle one. Or losing some bit of control through smoking a joint or drinking too much. Or an angry outburst over something that doesn't warrant it. So for atheists for whom these acts are a way of life, what's the way out for them? It can only be through God. No other way.


sexual immorality
impurity, sensuality
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies

 

[Winco]

Man/woman are always in GOD OP.

Surely you must know that

God is a BELIEF, not a fact.

Doesn't matter.

GOD lives in all of us.

God is a Belief, NOT a FACT. You believe, Now live your Gods morality.


Good for you, now live like the God you believe in and quit calling people you disagree with names. You do this skye , you really do. Your God is SAD about your behavior.

This madman and all the gangsters in this stolen administration are evil.

Biden is a demented moron.

FBI = Fucking Bunch of Idiots.

You represent a SAD example of what your God wants you to be.
Be Better. Be Best.

 

[WinterBorn]

And vice versa. As far as morality goes, some have lots, some have some and some have none.
Morality has nothing to do with salvation...

The topic is about being "suitably moral or good". I submit that plenty of atheists are "suitably moral or good".

 

[WinterBorn]

Let's revisit the list from the Galatians passage. I've never known a single atheist that does not engage in one or more of these vices systematically. It's not just a matter of an occasional slip up. I'm talking about sex outside marriage and masturbation in particular. Atheists doom themselves because they don't even admit these things are immoral.

Again, these vices are hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid in their entirety. How easy is it to speak ill of someone? Some little remark that will lower someone's opinion of another. Some snide remark instead of a kind and gentle one. Or losing some bit of control through smoking a joint or drinking too much. Or an angry outburst over something that doesn't warrant it. So for atheists for whom these acts are a way of life, what's the way out for them? It can only be through God. No other way.


sexual immorality
impurity, sensuality
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies

Part of the problem is that you expect the atheist to uphold the rules of the RCC in order to be moral.

For you, sex outside of marriage is immoral. For me it is not, as long as it is between consenting adults.

For you, birth control is immoral. For me it is not. In fact, I prefer my taxes pay for birth control for those on assistance programs, if they want it.

For you, masturbation is immoral. For me it is not. It can save relationships in which two people have very different libidos.