Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[SweetSue92]

And for the "Agnostic". I find myself quite cozy with Judeo- Christian beliefs. Yet I'm not "Christian". Why? Because the ancient sources observed, and understood human behavior. And as such.... They codified succcesful patterns of behavior for the less observant. Thus religion.

Okay but why pick that one? There were many "ancient sources". Paganism. Etc.

 

[SweetSue92]

I have a friend who advocated the the snowflake theory. This theory is that once we die, like all forms of water evaporate, mix together, and come down in another form, the same thing happens to souls/spirits. We are all mixed together and then return different spirit, different form.

I am more the mind that this life is about us creating who we are. For example, in this life one of the things I do is teach. In the early form of me, what I do is teach. A second or third rate analogy or example: Perhaps, in a higher life teaching won't be what I do, it will be who I am.

"It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment."--Hebrews 9:27

 

[there4eyeM]

Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God.​

Then, "man" has no choice. If "God" exists, morality and goodness must be present. If "God" does not exist, these things cannot, either.
Thanks for the info.

 

[SweetSue92]

For me .... GOD lives in all of us.

Some choose to aknowledge HIS Presence, some don't and some go against Him.

That's why there is good and evil here on earth.

Otherwise we would all be Angels.

But again this is just what I believe.

okay. But if God is real and true it would be important to know about Him rather than just believe things. Right?

 

[Mashmont]

There's nothing to suggest that gravity, or any other natural force, is given to us by any gods.

Yet you claim without evidence that God was created by man. You can't have it both ways.

But let's examine that for a sec. It's clear mankind understands the tiniest fraction of what goes on in the universe, yet you say man created a being that put this complex universe together, a being far more intelligent than he. How does that make a lick of sense?

 

[Hollie]

Yet you claim without evidence that God was created by man. You can't have it both ways.

But let's examine that for a sec. It's clear mankind understands the tiniest fraction of what goes on in the universe, yet you say man created a being that put this complex universe together, a being far more intelligent than he. How does that make a lick of sense?

I claim that all the gods ever created by man were, you know, created by man. That's why unique societies / cultures had unique gods.

Your ''... because I say so'' claim to your gods is not an argument. It's just one more partisan claim to another human invention of gods.

 

[Vastator]

Okay but why pick that one? There were many "ancient sources". Paganism. Etc.

Not sure what you’re really asking here…

 

[Mashmont]

I claim that all the gods ever created by man were, you know, created by man. That's why unique societies / cultures had unique gods.

Your ''... because I say so'' claim to your gods is not an argument. It's just one more partisan claim to another human invention of gods.

You haven't explained why you can arbitrarily claim man created God, but somehow equally arbitrarily discount the notion that God created man. Why is that?

 

[Meriweather]

But you are preaching the sort of milquetoast non-Christianity that keeps people from being part of the flock in the first place.

It is never my intent to preach, so if I am preaching I am certainly glad that it at least comes across as 'milquetoast'.

Jesus' message was not, "Believe in me or go to hell." If people in this forum feel threatened--or completely turn their back on religion--because they reject hell, then we people of faith are certainly "preaching" the wrong message.

Jesus' message was, "Your sins are forgiven", a message of reassurance, not one of terror and discomfort. If a message of hell has eclipsed Jesus' own words of forgiveness and or spreading the Good News, then I would say too many are preaching too much about the wrong thing.

I focus on the Beatitudes, on seeking and finding God, on repentance (meaning turning away) from doing wrong; of discerning the will of God and following it; of striving to be perfect as God is perfect.

That last sentence falls on deaf ears of non-believers here because someone has preached this perfect God is waiting to throw them in hell for eternity.

God is perfect in love, and He awaits all who want this eternity of loving Him and loving others. Those who have no wish to dwell in love or with a loving God are not forced into it. They can choose to dwell apart from God and loving others.

Such a life is ours to start living this this day. When we fail in living it, we pick ourselves up and continue on towards God and His Way, Jesus at our side, our transgression behind us, already forgiven and forgotten.

 

[Ringtone]

The various notions of gods created by humans is entirely consistent with unique cultures inventing unique gods. There are any number of studies on why people believe what they do; it's an extensive branch of cognitive psychology, especially social cognition. The basic model of gods is to assuage human fears and frailties. Human inventions of gods is not for the purpose of trying to reconcile their beliefs to any kind of objective reality, but rather to a construct that while not fitting or belonging to the corporeal world accommodates their fears and superstitions.

Pseudo-psychological bullshit.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Pseudo-psychological bullshit.

I.E., you know nothing about it and don't understand it, like all scientific topics.

 

[Ringtone]

It is never my intent to preach, so if I am preaching I am certainly glad that it at least comes across as 'milquetoast'.

Jesus' message was not, "Believe in me or go to hell." If people in this forum feel threatened--or completely turn their back on religion--because they reject hell, then we people of faith are certainly "preaching" the wrong message.

Jesus' message was, "Your sins are forgiven", a message of reassurance, not one of terror and discomfort. If a message of hell has eclipsed Jesus' own words of forgiveness and or spreading the Good News, then I would say too many are preaching too much about the wrong thing.

I focus on the Beatitudes, on seeking and finding God, on repentance (meaning turning away) from doing wrong; of discerning the will of God and following it; of striving to be perfect as God is perfect.

That last sentence falls on deaf ears of non-believers here because someone has preached this perfect God is waiting to throw them in hell for eternity.

God is perfect in love, and He awaits all who want this eternity of loving Him and loving others. Those who have no wish to dwell in love or with a loving God are not forced into it. They can choose to dwell apart from God and loving others.

Such a life is ours to start living this this day. When we fail in living it, we pick ourselves up and continue on towards God and His Way, Jesus at our side, our transgression behind us, already forgiven and forgotten.

You preach a false gospel of rank apostasy. Your gospel is nonsensical. One must repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior in order to have one's sins forgiven in the first place, indeed, in order to be born again into the kingdom of God. Otherwise, one is dead in one's sin and will remain so. The wrath of divine justice and the forgiveness of undeserved grace are inherently inextricable.

Christ didn't preach damnation?!

• Matthew 10:28 – “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (ESV).
• Matthew 25:46 – “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (ESV).
• Matthew 13:47-50 – “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (ESV).
• Mark 9:43 – “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire” (ESV).
• Matthew 13:40-42 – “Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (ESV).

The reason Christ did not come to condemn the world but to save it is because the world was condemned already!

Christ preached both the grace and the wrath of God. I'll follow his example.

 

[Hollie]

Pseudo-psychological bullshit.

You were left stuttering and mumbling with no coherent response.

 

[Ringtone]

Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God.​

Then, "man" has no choice. If "God" exists, morality and goodness must be present. If "God" does not exist, these things cannot, either.
Thanks for the info.

I can't make any rational sense out of this statement. Does anyone know what he's getting at here?

 

[Ringtone]

You were left stuttering and mumbling with no coherent response.

 

[Ringtone]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

Just wondering, does my post #174 correctly summarize the essential thrust of your observation?

 

[Meriweather]

You preach a false gospel of rank apostasy. Your gospel is nonsensical. One must repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior in order to have one's sins forgiven in the first place, indeed, in order to be born again into the kingdom of God.

Can you provide the verse where Jesus says, "IF you accept me as Lord and Savior, you will have your sins forgiven."

In his lifetime, Jesus proclaimed, "Your sins are forgiven; repentance for the forgiveness of sins."

Nor did he say IF you accept me as Lord and Savior you can be born again.

He said, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus did not go out and proclaim himself. He went out to proclaim truth. These truths declare him Lord and Savior--Redeemer. When people recognize the truth of what Jesus taught, what he says, then they are drawn to him, and live the Way of eternal life he proclaimed is ours and within our reach. They have turned away from (repented) their worldly ways and are reborn into the Spirit and the Way of eternal life.

Introducing people to hell as a way to get them running to Jesus is a very poor introduction to Christ and his teachings, plus (in my opinion), insulting to Jesus as well.

 

[Mashmont]

Just wondering, does my post #174 correctly summarize the essential thrust of your observation?

If i understand what you're saying. It was a little complicated and I only slept a few hours last night.

 

[Meriweather]

Christ didn't preach damnation?!

• Matthew 10:28 – “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (ESV).

I will take these one at a time.

In this passage, Jesus has been telling his Apostles that what he has been whispering to them, they will proclaim from the rooftops. There will be people who object to what Jesus taught. Jesus told his Apostles, don't worry about people who can kill the body. They cannot kill the soul.

Keep in mind, 'fear' is one's awe of the holiness of God and and His love for them.

This verse is more accurately translated as 'Gehenna' which was literally the word for the city dump outside of Jerusalem.

Think about deliberately betraying an innocent loved one, someone who loves you. How would you feel over that betrayal? All of the rest of your days it would be like living life in the city dump. That action of betrayal destroys the betrayer, all he once was.

Jesus is telling his Apostles (his missionaries) that nothing that happens to the body can be compared to what happens when one betrays God's absolute love and absolute holiness. Act against God, and one is never quite the same.

 

[Meriweather]

Matthew 25:46 – “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (ESV).

Note that not one of the items Jesus mentions is, "You accepted me as your Lord and Savior." It is about feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing, welcoming, and caring for those in need.