Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[Meriweather]

Matthew 13:47-50 – “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (ESV).

Once again...note Jesus says the good will be separated from the evil. He does not say, Those who accept me as Lord and Savior will be separated from those who do not.

 

[Meriweather]

• Mark 9:43 – “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire” (ESV).
• Matthew 13:40-42 – “Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (ESV).

Again, neither of these passages say, Those who did not accept me as Lord and Savior. Both speak of those who break the law.

 

[Ringtone]

Again, neither of these passages say, Those who did not accept me as Lord and Savior. Both speak of those who break the law.

I need not address your other posts. I've always understood and agree with your point about having knowledge of Christ. As Paul observes, those who obey the law are a law unto themselves. There will indeed be persons in heaven who have never heard of Christ. Notwithstanding, they will be there because they acknowledged God and his claim on them via the law written on their hearts. Everyone knows that it's wrong to violate the life, liberty, or property of another precisely because they would not wish that others violate their humanity. Those who love God will know that they have fallen short and will strive to live a life of repentance and justice.

Notwithstanding, they will be saved by Christ, because of his redemptive work, not because of their works. There is no other name by which man may be saved. By their faith in the demands of divine justice—forgiveness and repentance, humility and gratitude—they shall receive it.

The wrath of divine justice and the forgiveness of undeserved grace remain inherently inextricable, Christ preached both, and one most certainly cannot reject the gospel in the name of Christ and be saved.

 

[Ringtone]

Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God.​

Then, "man" has no choice. If "God" exists, morality and goodness must be present. If "God" does not exist, these things cannot, either.
Thanks for the info.

I'm not criticizing you, and I don't know why you're laughing at me. But, hey, if you don't see why one might wonder what you're getting at, I guess it's not that important.

 

[rightnow909]

Man/woman are always in GOD OP.

Surely you must know that

huh?

When you commit a mortal sin, you are not in Christ, who is the only way to Heaven.. If you repent and vow not to sin again, then you are on the right track and if you persevere, you can make it... but all sin does damage to the soul (and body and mind...) and the damage needs to be dealt with or just as OP said... can't be accepted into Heaven where, as Revelation says

no unclean thing will enter 21:27?

 

[Meriweather]

and one most certainly cannot reject the gospel in the name of Christ and be saved.

I don't know that many I have seen here reject Jesus' gospel. What they reject is the idea set forth by fellow Christians that they are doomed to hell if they do not profess the Christian faith.

Non-Christians point to the saying of some Christians that since Christians believe in Christ, their lives can be no better than a non-Christian, but their afterlife will be heaven and the afterlife for the non-Christian will be hell.

I argue nowhere did Jesus say this. In fact, in your first verse he was talking to his closest followers, warning those who believed that they would be under fire from non-believers. He told his closest friends--those who were firm believers--that they should not worry about being killed, because--for them--their betrayal of their own beliefs of God's love and holiness would destroy them.

Warnings about hell should never be directed to those outside of Christianity, but these words should be kept close for those who are the truest of believers and professors of faith. People of great faith are graced by many blessings, but are also the ones most in danger of being destroyed should they betray these beliefs to save their lives.

 

[Ringtone]

I don't know that many I have seen here reject Jesus' gospel. What they reject is the idea set forth by fellow Christians that they are doomed to hell if they do not profess the Christian faith.

Non-Christians point to the saying of some Christians that since Christians believe in Christ, their lives can be no better than a non-Christian, but their afterlife will be heaven and the afterlife for the non-Christian will be hell.

I argue nowhere did Jesus say this. In fact, in your first verse he was talking to his closest followers, warning those who believed that they would be under fire from non-believers. He told his closest friends--those who were firm believers--that they should not worry about being killed, because--for them--their betrayal of their own beliefs of God's love and holiness would destroy them.

Warnings about hell should never be directed to those outside of Christianity, but these words should be kept close for those who are the truest of believers and professors of faith. People of great faith are graced by many blessings, but are also the ones most in danger of being destroyed should they betray these beliefs to save their lives.

You write:

I don't know that many I have seen here reject Jesus' gospel. What they reject is the idea set forth by fellow Christians that they are doomed to hell if they do not profess the Christian faith.​

So you are saying that one can knowingly reject the gospel of Christ's name?! Atter reading your last post I thought that perhaps I had somehow misunderstood your previous posts, that perhaps we were actually in agreement vis-a-vis the clarification in my last post. I guess not. It still appears I understood you all along. I cannot agree with this.

 

[rightnow909]

Once again...note Jesus says the good will be separated from the evil. He does not say, Those who accept me as Lord and Savior will be separated from those who do not.

well, if you are implying that non-Christians make it... I differ

and the longer I live the more I believe what the Catholic Church used to teach on salvation, namely extra ecclesia nulla salus

outside the Church there is no salvation

or at least it is incredibly difficult (??) to be saved outside the Church Christ founded??

 

[Meriweather]

So you are saying that one can knowingly reject the gospel of Christ's name?!

I am saying they are not rejecting the Gospel Jesus proclaimed, but an addition made by some Christians.

I am saying non-Christians are rejecting Christians--who are not Jesus--telling them they are going to hell because they do not claim Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

There are much better, more accurate, more truthful ways to proclaim the Gospel.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

well, if you are implying that non-Christians make it... I differ

and the longer I live the more I believe what the Catholic Church used to teach on salvation, namely extra ecclesia nulla salus

outside the Church there is no salvation

or at least it is incredibly difficult (??) to be saved outside the Church Christ founded??

Well OF COURSE they say that. If it wasn't for the "magical forever prize" not a single one of you would show up to church or believe any of this iron age mythology.

Empty offering plates are no Bueno.

 

[rightnow909]

Well OF COURSE they say that. If it wasn't for the "magical forever prize" not a single one of you would show up to church or believe any of this iron age mythology.

Empty offering plates are no Bueno.

cynicism does not elide into Wisdom

sorry about that

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

cynicism does not elide into Wisdom

sorry about that

It's not cynicism. It's obvious fact. Without the promise of living forever, not a single one of you would believe ANY of this nonsense.

 

[rightnow909]

It's not cynicism. It's obvious fact. Without the promise of living forever, not a single one of you would believe ANY of this nonsense.

you don't know me and all you do when you act like you do know me is make yourself look stupid

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

you don't know me and all you do when you act like you do know me is make yourself look stupid

I don't need to know you. Without the promise of the magical forever prize, you wouldn't believe ANY of this nonsense.

It's why you re-transmit the childish, magical threat you have been vomiting for the entire thread. You aren't trying to convince anyone of anything. You are reaffirming your own choice to buy a ticket to the forever raffle.

 

[Meriweather]

and the longer I live the more I believe what the Catholic Church used to teach on salvation, namely extra ecclesia nulla salus

outside the Church there is no salvation

or at least it is incredibly difficult (??) to be saved outside the Church Christ founded??

Are you aware of why extra ecclesia nulla salus was set aside? It is because of its arrogance in stating the Church is the highest Judgement power. The Church is not. God is more powerful than the Church, and He has the ability to reach people even if the Church fails. Jesus will judge the human heart--not the Church. That is in the Gospel, Jesus will be Judge, not that the Church will judge.

What the Church is authorized to do is to proclaim the Gospel as Christ and the Apostles taught. Jesus promised his teachings led to eternal life. He said nothing about any other teachings--whether they did or did not lead to eternal life. Therefore, we as Catholics, cannot add to what Jesus did or did not say. We do as he directed us: Teach his Way to eternal life as he taught it, and know that the Spirit can work within the hearts of others.

 

[Hollie]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

Considering the horrors and cruelties leveled on humanity by Christianity, you folks are last people on the planet to be lecturing anyone on morality.

 

[Meriweather]

Without the promise of the magical forever prize, you wouldn't believe ANY of this nonsense.

Many who break from belief do so because they think it is all about a "magical forever prize".

Meanwhile, those who continue to believe do so because of the wisdom in how scripture directs us to live our life today. We seek God, and some find Him. No one would advise any other individual to turn away from someone they love. Nor would that person follow such advice.

The many who have built a relationship with God and His ways live in love, and will not forego this relationship--wouldn't even if it didn't extend into eternity. What we have today suffices.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Many who break from belief do so because they think it is all about a "magical forever prize".

And everyone who believes this mythology does so because of the magical forever prize.

There would be zero Christians on the planet, without it. It's literally the entire point.

 

[Mashmont]

Considering the horrors and cruelties leveled on humanity by Christianity, you folks are last people on the planet to be lecturing anyone on morality.

150 million murdered in the last century by atheists. More than all religions combined in the history of the world
Deny that.

 

[Meriweather]

And everyone who believes this mythology does so because of the magical forever prize.

There would be zero Christians on the planet, without it. It's literally the entire point.

No, it is far from the entire point. And, when eternal life is mentioned, you have missed that vital first step. Eternal Life begins here, now, today. If one waits for death, first leg of the journey is forsaken. You are not seeing a people waiting for "magical forever prize". We live the prize in daily life each day. It is worth it and would be even without life after death. That is what some cannot seem to grasp and understand.