Man Cannot Be Suitably Moral or Good without God. Here's why:

[Mashmont]

No, it is far from the entire point. And, when eternal life is mentioned, you have missed that vital first step. Eternal Life begins here, now, today. If one waits for death, first leg of the journey is forsaken. You are not seeing a people waiting for "magical forever prize". We live the prize in daily life each day. It is worth it and would be even without life after death. That is what some cannot seem to grasp and understand.

They don't understand Christian living makes for the best life here on earth, as well as the afterlife.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

No, it is far from the entire point.

Wrong. It is the entire point. Moral codes can be found in any puddle. Christianity has followers ONLY because of the promise of the magical forever prize. There is no getting around this. It is the point of every church service. The point of the entire Bible.

You only balk at it because I pull the veil back and call it what it is. And it loses its shine, without the window dressi g of elaborate buldings and hymns and fancy languageamd withiut the pomp and circumstance. You will argue with me now and then join right in on the marketing campaign for the forever prize raffle at your next opportunity.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

They don't understand Christian living makes for the best life here on earth, as well as the afterlife.

And if not for the promise of the forever prize, you wouldn't believe a word of it.

 

[Briss]

The OP is expressing his belief that, without the intervention of the god, morals will be foreign to us. He believes that without the god leaning on us, we will be powerless to avoid indulging in immoral thoughts and acts. Of course, the OP is using himself as the standard against which to judge the virtues of the rest of us. He believes that without the god leaning on him, he would be powerless to avoid indulging in immoral thoughts and acts, and that we therefore share in that personal shortcoming or character defect of his.

 

[Briss]

And everyone who believes this mythology does so because of the magical forever prize.

There would be zero Christians on the planet, without it. It's literally the entire point.

You forgot about the promised torture incentive, too. It's a two-pronged approach.

 

[Faun]

One of the common things I've heard from atheists is "You don't need God in order to be moral". In fact, I've met atheists/irreligious who were friendly and helpful and appeared on the surface to be perhaps as Christlike as some Christians in their behavior. I knew a guy named Richard just like that who owned a store in my hometown. Very friendly and nice, but totally irreligious. I always wondered how this was so.

This conundrum was explained to be in the sermon at Mass this evening. The short answer is atheists are sinful and unfit for Heaven until they find God. Being overtly nice is not enough. Here's why:
St. Paul says humans are innately sinful. Without assistance from God, atheists have no way to escape their sinful nature. You have to be pure sexually. You can't gossip about others, you can't be prone to anger. Here is the full list:

Galations 5: 19-24
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm here to tell you it's difficult to overcome some of these vices. How easy is it to gossip about someone, or get angry, or sow discord, or envy someone, or be caught up in worldly desires such as wanting a fine car or home, trying to attain riches or to satisfy sexual urges in immoral ways. It's hard enough for practicing Christians to avoid these things even with consistent prayer. It is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid them without prayer and without God. It is impossible for atheists to have all the positive characteristics in the Galatians passage above and none of the negative. Nobody in this forum or anywhere else knows an atheist who follows all these laws.

My friend Richard? Turns out in his store, he rented out extremely X-rated nasty videos on the side. Beneath his friendly veneer were a lot of problems. A lot of sexual deviancy. And he had nothing to fight them with. He didn't enlist God's help to fight them. He had no chance.

So to the question of "Why do you need God in order to be a good person"? The answer is; because man is innately sinful, and if left alone without God, will remain in those sins.

LOL

That's funny given the majority of faiths on this planet teach only their way will get you to be with G-d in the end.

 

[Mashmont]

LOL

That's funny given the majority of faiths on this planet teach only their way will get you to be with G-d in the end.

The RCC doesn't teach that.

 

[Hollie]

150 million murdered in the last century by atheists. More than all religions combined in the history of the world
Deny that.

You copy and paste that slogan from thread to thread and, as usual, provide nothing to support the slogan.

 

[Mashmont]

The OP is expressing his belief that, without the intervention of the god, morals will be foreign to us. He believes that without the god leaning on us, we will be powerless to avoid indulging in immoral thoughts and acts. Of course, the OP is using himself as the standard against which to judge the virtues of the rest of us. He believes that without the god leaning on him, he would be powerless to avoid indulging in immoral thoughts and acts, and that we therefore share in that personal shortcoming or character defect of his.

My title said "suitably" which I used to show that atheists are not incapable of at least some morality.

But I'll ask you a question. Do you know any atheist who exhibits the positive qualities mentioned in the Galatians passage even most of the time? I say you don't.

 

[rightnow909]

Are you aware of why extra ecclesia nulla salus was set aside? It is because of its arrogance in stating the Church is the highest Judgement power. The Church is not. God is more powerful than the Church, and He has the ability to reach people even if the Church fails. Jesus will judge the human heart--not the Church. That is in the Gospel, Jesus will be Judge, not that the Church will judge.

What the Church is authorized to do is to proclaim the Gospel as Christ and the Apostles taught. Jesus promised his teachings led to eternal life. He said nothing about any other teachings--whether they did or did not lead to eternal life. Therefore, we as Catholics, cannot add to what Jesus did or did not say. We do as he directed us: Teach his Way to eternal life as he taught it, and know that the Spirit can work within the hearts of others.

why do i get the feeling it ws "set aside" (and not by all Catholics, by the way, not even all bishops or cardinals) is because of the "ecumenism" Vatican II wanted to propagate, which essentially meant that... Vatican II basically made MAN God... Indifferentism (it doesn't matter what religion you are...) became acceptable to the Catholic Church, when again, the Church used to teach No salvation outside the Church

which I still believe... The only thing I would add is that, as you say, God is higher than even Christ's Church, for lack of a better way to say it. The problem is He doesn't nullify Christ's Church when it is speaking ex cathedra...

People can be saved if they are essentially Catholic or "Catholic on the inner forum" as someone once put it...

in other words, if a person believes what the Church teaches in its dogmatic beliefs, even if that person is not formally a member of the Church, he can be saved..

but have u ever met someone who believed all the Church teaches... all the dogmas? Well, I have met some who come close... In any case, I say Protestants can be saved through Purgatory...

God is merciful

but if they absolutely reject the Catholic Church, they are objectively rejecting Christ... knowingly or o/wise, and I fail to understand how one cannot KNOW he or she is rejecting Christ... I mean, the CC was the only one that kept on teaching against such things as artificial b. control... and most nonCatholic churches accept abortion in some situations... etc..

 

[Briss]

My title said "suitably" which I used to show that atheists are not incapable of all morality.

But I'll ask you a question. Do you know any atheist who succeeds in the positive qualities mentioned in the Galatians passage even most of the time? I say you don't.

I am more moral than you. Isn't that enough?

 

[Mashmont]

You copy and paste that slogan from thread to thread and, as usual, provide nothing to support the slogan.

So prove me wrong.

 

[Ringtone]

I am saying they are not rejecting the Gospel Jesus proclaimed, but an addition made by some Christians.

I am saying non-Christians are rejecting Christians--who are not Jesus--telling them they are going to hell because they do not claim Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

There are much better, more accurate, more truthful ways to proclaim the Gospel.

I am saying non-Christians are rejecting Christians--who are not Jesus--telling them they are going to hell because they do not claim Christ as personal Lord and Savior.

Right. And the persons doing so knows the name of Christ and his Gospel. They are knowingly rejecting the only name and means of salvation.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).​

 

[Meriweather]

They don't understand Christian living makes for the best life here on earth, as well as the afterlife.

All I can testify about is that I see the difference it made in my own life. It has been a great blessing.

 

[Mashmont]

I am more moral than you. Isn't that enough?

What a silly comment.

So in other words, your refusal to answer shows I was right. You don't know any atheists who follows the teachings laid forth in Galatians.

 

[Hollie]

You forgot about the promised torture incentive, too. It's a two-pronged approach.

Valid point. The coercive heaven and hell doctrine of Christianity and the threats of burning flesh, eternal damnation and eternal pain are a powerful motivational force especially when you can impose those scare tactics on children. What better way for a ruling class seeking to coerce conformance from their minions.

 

[Mashmont]

All I can testify about is that I see the difference it made in my own life. It has been a great blessing.

The same here.

 

[Hollie]

So prove me wrong.

I'm under no obligation to disprove what you are unable to provide a coherent argument in support of.

You have this odd notion that your ''... because I say so'', claims are in any way meaningful.

 

[SweetSue92]

It is never my intent to preach, so if I am preaching I am certainly glad that it at least comes across as 'milquetoast'.

Jesus' message was not, "Believe in me or go to hell." If people in this forum feel threatened--or completely turn their back on religion--because they reject hell, then we people of faith are certainly "preaching" the wrong message.

Jesus' message was, "Your sins are forgiven", a message of reassurance, not one of terror and discomfort. If a message of hell has eclipsed Jesus' own words of forgiveness and or spreading the Good News, then I would say too many are preaching too much about the wrong thing.

I focus on the Beatitudes, on seeking and finding God, on repentance (meaning turning away) from doing wrong; of discerning the will of God and following it; of striving to be perfect as God is perfect.

That last sentence falls on deaf ears of non-believers here because someone has preached this perfect God is waiting to throw them in hell for eternity.

God is perfect in love, and He awaits all who want this eternity of loving Him and loving others. Those who have no wish to dwell in love or with a loving God are not forced into it. They can choose to dwell apart from God and loving others.

Such a life is ours to start living this this day. When we fail in living it, we pick ourselves up and continue on towards God and His Way, Jesus at our side, our transgression behind us, already forgiven and forgotten.

What is wrong with preaching?

Just for starters.

 

[Faun]

The RCC doesn't teach that.

Sure it does. It teaches the only way to be with G-d when you perish is to believe Christ is G-d and the son of G-d and that died for our sins and was resurrected. That's a Christian thing. What other faiths believe that?