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Many Believe....Many Don't.

PoliticalChic

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Oct 6, 2008
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What reason is there to support belief?


1. First of all, there are many things that people believe that are not supported by evidence, but, rather, by the preferences of those holding the belief, simply by ideas that we find attractive, or that we would like to believe.
a. But in the search for truth, one should attempt to give up subjective preferences in favor of objective facts. And this is done via logic, evidence, and science.




2. Reasonable folk accept the Law of Noncontradiction: this means that contradictory claims cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. Or, simply, that the opposite of true is false.

As Avicenna, the Persian, aptly put it: Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.


a. You meet friends, a married couple, and ask if it is true that she is going to have a baby. She says 'yes'- at the same moment that he says 'no.' Both cannot be true.

b. How about this: the Bible says that Jesus died, and then rose from the dead. But the Q'ran says that Jesus existed, but didn't die: "...but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear..."
Sura 4: 157-158.
Logic tells us that both cannot be true.


c. Or...God exists, or God doesn't exist.





3. Perhaps the philosopher David Hume should be beaten. His views are responsible for much of the skepticism advanced today. Hume, an empiricist, claimed that all meaningful ideas were either true by definition (as 'triangles have three sides'), or must be based on the senses. Thus, any metaphysical claims, i.e., God, must be meaningless.

a. As to why Hume should be beaten, his views are neither definitions of quantity, nor empirically verifiable....so they must be meaningless.





4. Then there is Immanuel Kant- even worse for believers! He goes further than Hume, claiming that we cannot really know the real world, because "My mind imposes a framework on the object of knowledge as I attempt to know the object. I can never truly know an object as it is." www.csun.edu/~kdm78513/subjects/philosophy/documents/.../kant.doc


a. So....if your mind structures all sense data, and one can never know the real object, the real world, Kant contradicts his premise: no one can know the real world while he claims to know something about it...that is, that it is unknowable. So, the truth about the real world is that there are no truths about the real world?


5. So much for Hume's and Kant's use in destroying 'religious' truths.

From " I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist," by Norman L. Geisler,Frank Turek
 
Some interesting points that I as an agnostic find merit with on both sides. Realize I am not agnostic because I have no strong beliefs, but that the concept of God is one which I cannot fully grasp as being a reality, but this could simply be my inability(or unwillingness) to "connect" with "the truth", or it could be that my skepticism is simply a result of my experiences and knowledge. Nor can I readily explain (or even being to consider) the myriad complexities of life as we know it, its genesis, its purpose (if any).

This quote- "My mind imposes a framework on the object of knowledge as I attempt to know the object. I can never truly know an object as it is."

I find this to be as true as anything I have ever read. How is it possible that all we know or believe we know is NOT filtered through our own perceptions of the thing (idea)?

I would love to have the kind of faith that many people I know have, I just don't. Maybe that's my fault, or maybe that's just how I was meant to be.
 
Just get on your knees and ask forgiveness for being so stupid and selfish. Then get up and check your weapon for availability and mechanical readiness.
 
Some interesting points that I as an agnostic find merit with on both sides. Realize I am not agnostic because I have no strong beliefs, but that the concept of God is one which I cannot fully grasp as being a reality, but this could simply be my inability(or unwillingness) to "connect" with "the truth", or it could be that my skepticism is simply a result of my experiences and knowledge. Nor can I readily explain (or even being to consider) the myriad complexities of life as we know it, its genesis, its purpose (if any).

This quote- "My mind imposes a framework on the object of knowledge as I attempt to know the object. I can never truly know an object as it is."

I find this to be as true as anything I have ever read. How is it possible that all we know or believe we know is NOT filtered through our own perceptions of the thing (idea)?

I would love to have the kind of faith that many people I know have, I just don't. Maybe that's my fault, or maybe that's just how I was meant to be.




Very thoughtful post, Penny.

I plan to expound on several of your points during the course of the day.
I hope you will have time, or interest, to follow the thread, as I would like to read your opinion at the close.

In fact, the Kant quote will be an important jumping off point.


In either case, I appreciate your post.
 
Just get on your knees and ask forgiveness for being so stupid and selfish. Then get up and check your weapon for availability and mechanical readiness.



There are particular posts that reflect the closed mindedness instilled in the secular, Liberal devotees.

The weakest ones will never overcome same.

Your post, of course, is a typical example.
 
o you are trying to say that
There are particular posts that reflect the closed mindedness instilled in the secular, Liberal devotees.

The weakest ones will never overcome same.

Your post, of course, is a typical example.

I see you are yet again trying to slur liberals and not wanting to really discuss religion or a belief in a deity...You think that all conservatives have a belief in God? They don't...there are atheist and agnostics in the GOP, the Democratic and all political other parties...This constant obsession with you is the main reason you have very few abilities to really hit home with your opinion..It violates your credibility also...

Privately, I believe in none of them. Neither do you. Publicly, I believe in them all.

Dalton Trumbo
Dalton Trumbo (1905–1976), U.S. author, screenwriter. Gracchuss (Charles Laughton), Spartacus, discussing religion and Roman gods with a peer (1960).

P.S. Deltex is in no way,,,a liberal...
 
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o you are trying to say that


I see you are yet again trying to slur liberals and not wanting to really discuss religion or a belief in a deity...You think that all conservatives have a belief in God? They don't...there are atheist and agnostics in the GOP, the Democratic and all political other parties...

Privately, I believe in none of them. Neither do you. Publicly, I believe in them all.

Dalton Trumbo
Dalton Trumbo (1905–1976), U.S. author, screenwriter. Gracchuss (Charles Laughton), Spartacus, discussing religion and Roman gods with a peer (1960).





OK....early though it is, you win today's award in the category of "Unintentional Humor"!

Bravo!

You seem to object to the disparaging posts re: Liberals....

...then you quote communist Dalton Trumbo...

1. 'When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the “deadly” form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes.'
Coulter


2. Now....what does this have to do with Liberals?
Whittaker Chambers wrote in his book WITNESS that liberals are/were incapable of ever effectively fighting Communism because they did not see anything in Communism that was antithetical to their own beliefs. In short, Liberals are Communists and Communists are Liberals. The revisionist is aware of the horrors of Communism; the tortures, the Gulags, the over 100 million persons done to death.
 
I don't object because I know that you are compulsive/obsessive over your dislike of certain humans by political affiliation. Yet the element that you super impose does not correlate to the true nature of each and every human..
 
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1. 'When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the “deadly” form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes.'
Coulter

The Russian populace starved quite regularly because of their large population, short summers, long winters and peasant based agrarian economy during the Romanov's..They had a state church, yet still starved to death.
I see that Ann Coulter has a compulsive/obsessive behavior when it comes to communist..But refuses to realize that even with a religion, things were no better in Russia..
 
This argument is called the presuppositional apologetic, or . It claims that without God, there is no basis for knowledge. Of course, it's been soundly defeated 100's of times.

Is there anything you know for certain?

Of course there are things we know objectively, with absolute certainty, without a deity as the absolute source of that objective knowledge. Inquire within and get destroyed. Ad hom for concessions.
 
I don't object because I know that you are a compulsive/obsessive over your dislike of certain humans by political affiliation. Yet the element that you super impose does not correlate to the true nature of each and every human..






1. "...you are a compulsive/obsessive over your dislike of certain humans by political affiliation."

That incorporates a misuse of terminology...."compulsive/obsessive"....
Rather, you neglect to assign logic, experience, and education as the basis for a well-reasoned distaste for communism/socialism/Liberalism/Progressivism....etc.

Didn't you want to include this?
"The revisionist is aware of the horrors of Communism; the tortures, the Gulags, the over 100 million persons done to death."

Liberal could be substituted for 'revisionist.'


2. "Yet the element that you super impose does not correlate to the true nature of each and every human."

You are absolutely correct!
To include the majority of Liberals, one would have to add the following as explanation... : ignorance, and cowardice.
 
2. Now....what does this have to do with Liberals?
Whittaker Chambers wrote in his book WITNESS that liberals are/were incapable of ever effectively fighting Communism because they did not see anything in Communism that was antithetical to their own beliefs. In short, Liberals are Communists and Communists are Liberals. The revisionist is aware of the horrors of Communism; the tortures, the Gulags, the over 100 million persons done to death.

How many liberals have died fighting communist in wars? None!? I doubt that.
This last paragraph is trying to play character assassination of US veterans only because they were liberals. And the other fallacy of the statement does not take into account that saying the word liberal does not encompass the different types of liberals..

Gulags, torture, this author must have thought the Romanov's as God's gift to the Ruskies. They had pogroms for the Jews, prisons, work camps in which countless humans died, yet they had religion imposed by the state...
 
1. 'When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the “deadly” form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes.'
Coulter

The Russian populace starved quite regularly because of their large population, short summers, long winters and peasant based agrarian economy during the Romanov's..They had a state church, yet still starved to death.
I see that Ann Coulter has a compulsive/obsessive behavior when it comes to communist..But refuses to realize that even with a religion, things were no better in Russia..





"The Russian populace starved quite regularly because of their large population,..."

See what I mean about ignorance and cowardice?



1. As one of his friends later recalled, "Vladimir Ilych Ulyanov (Lenin) had the courage to come out and say openly that famine would have numerous positive results...Famine, he explained....would bring about the next stage more rapidly, and usher in socialism, the stage that necessarily followed capitalism. Famine would also destroy faith, not only in the tsar, but in God, too."
The Black Book of Communism, p.123-124.

2. "The present moment favors us....With the help of all those starving people who are starting to eat each other, who are dying by the millions, and whose bodies litter the roadside all over the country, it is now and only now, that we can-and therefore must- confiscate all church property with all the ruthless energy we can muster....Our only hope is the despair engendered in the masses by the famine, which will cause them to look at us in a favorable light or at the very least, with indifference."
Lenin, March 19, 1922

3. "For humankind at large Lenin had nothing but scorn: ...individual human beings held for Lenin almost no interest..."
Richard Pipes, "The Unknown Lenin," p. 10
 
1. "...you are a compulsive/obsessive over your dislike of certain humans by political affiliation."

That incorporates a misuse of terminology...."compulsive/obsessive"....
Rather, you neglect to assign logic, experience, an education as the basis for a well-reasoned distaste for communism/socialism/Liberalism/Progressivism....etc.

Didn't you want to include this?
"The revisionist is aware of the horrors of Communism; the tortures, the Gulags, the over 100 million persons done to death."

Liberal could be substituted for 'revisionist.'


2. "Yet the element that you super impose does not correlate to the true nature of each and every human."

You are absolutely correct!
To include the majority of Liberals, one would have to add the following as explanation... : ignorance, and cowardice.

You may of course, go intercourse yourself, since all you like to do is flame and play with yourself...
 
This argument is called the presuppositional apologetic, or . It claims that without God, there is no basis for knowledge. Of course, it's been soundly defeated 100's of times.

Is there anything you know for certain?

Of course there are things we know objectively, with absolute certainty, without a deity as the absolute source of that objective knowledge. Inquire within and get destroyed. Ad hom for concessions.



Alas! My brilliant insights fall like seeds... on stony ground.

The view that you have any ability to learn is what has been "soundly defeated 100's of times..."

...but, being the eternal optimist, I will continue ...


6. There are some things in the universe that are not scientifically explicable. Can anyone argue that this is not true? If so, they would have to argue that they believe that at some future time, science will be able to explain everything. “Believe” becomes the operative term, and such an explanation nudges science into the realm of faith. And it becomes a religion.



7. Which brings to mind this, from Arthur Conan Doyle: ‘Napoleon's question to the atheistic professors on the starry night as he voyaged to Egypt: "Who was it, gentlemen, who made these stars?" has never been answered. To say that the Universe was made by immutable laws only put the question one degree further back as to who made the laws. I did not, of course, believe in an anthropomorphic God, but I believed then, as I believe now, in an intelligent Force behind all the operations of Nature--a force so infinitely complex and great that my finite brain could get no further than its existence.” The New Revelation, by Arthur Conan Doyle; Chapter I: The Search Page 1



8.Similarly, the Big Bang origin of the universe required energy. And Newton stated that mass and energy are interchangeable, but that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. But something must have created the energy, at what we might call ‘the beginning.’

a. Now, before one attempts to explain away the obvious problem by inserting the term ‘infinity,’ let’s agree that infinity does not exist in the real world. So, without ‘infinity,’ it follows that everything in the universe is finite, therefore had a beginning….and, an end.

b. The Greek philosopher Epicurus: ‘It is best to keep an open mind in the absence of decisive verification.’ What if science can never explain certain things?
 
#6 is illogical. Things in the universe not being fully solved doesn't mean that science is a faith, that doesn't rationally follow. Science is not a religion, it's a process. It's pretty pathetic that you can't decipher between a process and a result. The process is proven, it does not require faith. A belief in future results is a faith, but it's a faith in a future result, not in the process of science. The process of science requires no faith, it's proven.

8a is a baseless assertion, and the answer to 8b is "so what?"

Science doesn't baselessly insert theories without repeatable experimentation and peer review, as religion does. That it knows its limitations and doesn't skip steps in order to exceed those limitations is precisely what makes it more honest than a religion.

Arthur Conan's belief is meaningless to me.

more p.c. fail, ad hom, and using other people's words. Damn.
 
Matter of fact, I'm going to go ahead and bookmark your #6 to remind you and others every so often how insanely stupid you really are. Stay tuned.
 
Alas! My brilliant insights fall like seeds... on stony ground.

The view that you have any ability to learn is what has been "soundly defeated 100's of times..."

...but, being the eternal optimist, I will continue ...


6. There are some things in the universe that are not scientifically explicable. Can anyone argue that this is not true? If so, they would have to argue that they believe that at some future time, science will be able to explain everything. “Believe” becomes the operative term, and such an explanation nudges science into the realm of faith. And it becomes a religion.



7. Which brings to mind this, from Arthur Conan Doyle: ‘Napoleon's question to the atheistic professors on the starry night as he voyaged to Egypt: "Who was it, gentlemen, who made these stars?" has never been answered. To say that the Universe was made by immutable laws only put the question one degree further back as to who made the laws. I did not, of course, believe in an anthropomorphic God, but I believed then, as I believe now, in an intelligent Force behind all the operations of Nature--a force so infinitely complex and great that my finite brain could get no further than its existence.” The New Revelation, by Arthur Conan Doyle; Chapter I: The Search Page 1



8.Similarly, the Big Bang origin of the universe required energy. And Newton stated that mass and energy are interchangeable, but that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. But something must have created the energy, at what we might call ‘the beginning.’

a. Now, before one attempts to explain away the obvious problem by inserting the term ‘infinity,’ let’s agree that infinity does not exist in the real world. So, without ‘infinity,’ it follows that everything in the universe is finite, therefore had a beginning….and, an end.

b. The Greek philosopher Epicurus: ‘It is best to keep an open mind in the absence of decisive verification.’ What if science can never explain certain things?

Re: 6. Which is why the word believe should have nothing to do with Science. The Big Bang Theory is a description based on observation, evidence, math, physics, etc. about what may have happened in the early part of this observable universe. I don't believe it, and neither should you. And neither should anyone else including any scientists. Not because it isn't true, accurate, or not contain any element of Truth, but because it does not require belief. Its a theory not a belief.

There may never be scientific answers to all of the questions we have about life, the universe, and everything. To believe you have any of those answers is belief.

Re: 7. Is this an appeal to authority?

Re: 8. A common misconception about the Big Bang Theory (BBT) is that before the Big Bang there was nothing, then an explosion which eventually cooled and coalesced into the Universe as we perceive it. What happened before the expansion of the Universe is currently unknown and maybe unknowable. NO ONE KNOWS - not me, not you, nor anyone else. To claim otherwise is to lie. To think otherwise is delusion.

Epicurus would agree. We don't know all the information (and who knows how much we don't know about the origins of the Universe) so best not to make a decision regarding it yet.

Science will probably never answer all our questions. And its okay not to know. In fact, its better not to know because it makes existence far more interesting.
 
I've always allowed for the possibility the God of the BIble exists because even I can see the wisdom of not offering any proof. Proof doesn't mean people will then have faith or be obediant. The Exodus Jews had such proof and were anything but faithful or obediant. And for us right now, if we suddenly had God revealing its existence in some irrefutable way that even Dawkins would admit he was wrong, "Yup that's God" we wouldn't necessarily then be any better off.

An all-powerful god would throw the government and nations system of the world into absolute chaos. He's the boss, not any President or Prime Minister. People would rebel instantaneously saying they're with God, not so-and-so President. ANd what could you do to prevent it? That'd be some speech. :)

The global economy would collapse and people'd suddenly not be doing much of anything out of fear of being sent to hell for some obscure sin. Be a good day for Bible sellers though.

If God exists, there's no good reasons to confirm it. People'd submit to you if only because you're the top of the food chain, but not out of faith or love. Just fear. Real fear, paralyzing fear. Hostile aliens showing up and blasting everything would be bad, but a God who can send you to hell for the rest of time? That's pretty terrifying.

So maybe the reason we don't have any proof of God is by design? In other words, the reason to believe is the complete lack of reasons to believe.
 

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