Zone1 Might Makes Right

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Someone’s comment on a thread earlier brought to mind the idea of “might makes right.”

Here’s a definition, for anyone who isn’t sure what it means. According to Oxford English Dictionary...

might is right (also might makes right and variants) : the possession of power, rather than any moral consideration, determines the legitimacy of an action, policy, etc.​

Obviously we see “might makes right” played out all the time in this world.

But is there anyone here who actually believes that might makes right? In other words, is there anyone here who actually believes that mere physical strength and possession of power morally justifies anything that person with power does with it?

Before I say anything more, I want to hear your thoughts on it.

I’m especially curious to hear what the atheists have to say about this.

Attila the Hun. Stalin. Hitler. W. T. Sherman. Cortez.

 

[buttercup]

I think that most of the time doing the right thing, the right way for the right reason is self evident.

Yeah. But when arguing this sort of thing, I don't think people will accept that so easily. They'll claim you have to prove what is "right" and why your "right" is the true right, yada yada yada. So I still think they'll say "right makes right" is circular.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Something to think about, God has ultimate power and will hold everyone accountable to his standards.

At the end of the day, might will make right.

The problem we have during the Age of Man, where "every man decides for himself good and evil", is that there is no accepted definition of right and wrong.

This was the sin of Adam and Eve when they rejected God's authority and chose from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

This is the root of this worlds chaos

 

[ding]

Yeah. But when arguing this sort of thing, I don't think people will accept that so easily. They'll claim you have to prove what is "right" and why your "right" is the true right, yada yada yada. So I still think they'll say "right makes right" is circular.

Truth stands on its own. Eventually error fails. So no matter how mighty someone is it won't last if it is wrong. Truth stands the test of time. Error doesn't. No matter how mighty Hitler was, he ultimately failed because what he was doing was wrong. And even if he had succeeded, what he did would still not be right. Right determines right. Not might.

 

[buttercup]

Attila the Hun. Stalin. Hitler. W. T. Sherman. Cortez.

Yes, and? Unless you're claiming that they were truly right, you simply gave examples of might makes right... which we all agree exists. I was just asking if anyone actually believes that idea.

 

[buttercup]

Truth stands on its own. Eventually error fails. So no matter how mighty someone is it won't last if it is wrong. Truth stands the test of time. Error doesn't. No matter how mighty Hitler was, he ultimately failed because what he was doing was wrong. And even if he had succeeded, what he did would still not be right. Right determines right. Not might.

In the long run, yes, I agree. And that's one thing that is always very comforting to me, that truth will win in the end.

Unfortunately, people can go for very long periods of time believing lies. In fact, some people seem to want to believe lies, for whatever reason. But now we're getting into yet another topic, haha.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Heh, that's pretty much what I just posted without seeing your post... only in different words.



Yes, but I think there's probably a better way of saying that. Because the naysayers will take that as God being arbitrary and only "right" because he is the most powerful of all. In fact, I'm surprised no one has said that yet, but I don't think any atheists have posted on this thread.

This is why I "disagreed" with his post, although many will refuse to go along with the Messiah when He Returns.

Even Christians have chosen their own way? Are they observing the COMMANDED Feast of Tabernacles? They prefer their own holidays over God's Holy Days

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord[b] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles

 

[buttercup]

This is why I "disagreed" with his post, although many will refuse to go along with the Messiah when He Returns.

Even Christians have chosen their own way? Are they observing the COMMANDED Feast of Tabernacles? They prefer their own holidays over God's Holy Days

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord[b] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles

But all he was saying was that ultimately (in the very end) God has the final say. Which is true.

He wasn't commenting on what you're talking about... people going by their own "truth", even christians sometimes.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

But all he was saying was that ultimately (in the very end) God has the final say. Which is true.

He wasn't commenting on what you're talking about... people going by their own "truth", even christians sometimes.

God doesn't want to FORCE people to obey or accept HIS definition of right and wrong. He will allow us to fk up this world so badly that we will finally STOP and surrender WILLINGLY to His Authority.

This is the Work of the Two Witnesses in the Last Days after the Christian/jewish world has nothing left but God:

"Comfort, comfort My people says your God. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem and tell her that her time of hard service has come to an end. That her sins have been paid"

Our people WILL surrender to God, and THAT is when He will return

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Yes, and? Unless you're claiming that they were truly right, you simply gave examples of might makes right... which we all agree exists. I was just asking if anyone actually believes that idea.

I believe each of them thought so.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I believe each of them thought so.

I think you're right. Even serial killers and mass murderers convince themselves they're doing the right thing

 

[ding]

I believe each of them thought so.

Exactly. No one believes they are doing evil for the sake of evil. Everyone rationalizes their behaviors as good and just.

The first recorded rationalization of wrong as right...

Adam, did you eat the apple?
The woman YOU made gave it to me.

 

[buttercup]

I believe each of them thought so.

Well, even if that's true (which as I said to Carl, we can't know for sure, since we're not in other people's minds) it doesn't matter. People can convince themselves of just about anything.

The truth is what it is, it isn't dependent on what we believe or disbelieve.

And I think it's safe to say that saying "I thought I was doing what was right" is not going to acquit someone of their crimes in the eyes of the final Judge, especially when it comes to trampling all over the innocent and defenseless.

ETA: And if they DID think they were doing the right thing, then that's not a case of someone believing "might makes right", which was the question I asked.

 

[Votto]

The problem we have during the Age of Man, where "every man decides for himself good and evil", is that there is no accepted definition of right and wrong.

This was the sin of Adam and Eve when they rejected God's authority and chose from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

This is the root of this worlds chaos

Problem?

All I see is man proving only God knows what he is doing every single day man fails by trying to do things his way.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Well, even if that's true (which as I said to Carl, we can't know for sure, since we're not in other people's minds) it doesn't matter. People can convince themselves of just about anything.

The truth is what it is, it isn't dependent on what we believe or disbelieve.

And I think it's safe to say that saying "I thought I was doing what was right" is not going to acquit someone of their crimes in the eyes of the final Judge, especially when it comes to trampling all over the innocent and defenseless.

ETA: And if they DID think they were doing the right thing, then that's not a case of someone believing "might makes right", which was the question I asked.

I don't think he was justifying those actions, only that the villain thinks there is nothing wrong with his actions.

How about the government of North Korea? He is probably the most evil despot in the world today.

What if "we" sent someone in to assassinate this dictator? A lot of Americans would disagree with doing this. But he's a threat to his own people and the rest of the civilized world. If we did that, a lot of people, including Americans, would say this is an example of "might makes right." I'm guessing you would too. But his own people didn't ask to be born into that country as oppressed slaves, but they are.

If we did do something like that, I wouldn't say it's an example of "might makes right" but using our might to do the right thing -- giving others the God given freedoms we (sort of) have

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Problem?

All I see is man proving only God knows what he is doing every single day man fails by trying to do things his way.

We don't disagree

 

[Foxfyre]

It doesn't matter if people believe in "might makes right." It's true whether or not people want it to be true.

It would be more intellectually honest though to say it as it actually is, i.e. "Might can dictate what right will legally be."

 

[TruthNotBS]

Well I definitely agree with the 2nd paragraph. As for the first thing you said...well, it could be argued that if our rights come from God (which I believe they do) then they're aren't meaningless even for the powerless. Why, because although it may not happen in this life, in the grand scheme of things those wrongs will be righted, so to speak. But that's sort of getting into another topic.

Human rights are determined and enforced by people who share their lives together in a community or society. People also determine what and who their God is and what their religious beliefs are. If they believe that the rights that they recognize for the members of their community were inspired or are supported by their God, then those rights become "God-given rights". Ultimately, it's human beings determining what people's rights are. I believe rights should be based on reason and hold life itself as the highest value. Whatever rules or rights, are the most life-affirming and conducive for our personal and collective survival and success, should be enforced and protected.