More "freedom" going on - doesnt rate a mention

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Family of 4 dies in Texas hotel shooting

A family of 4 dead. Mom shot her kids aged 5 and 10 and her husband.Then killed herself.

I wonder if those kids would still be alive if this woman found it difficult to get a gun ?

Is it just possible ?

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

True.

And a gun owner is much more likely to be killed by his own gun than using that gun in self-defense.

But that’s an issue which has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or the appropriateness of its case law.

 

[2aguy]

Family of 4 dies in Texas hotel shooting

A family of 4 dead. Mom shot her kids aged 5 and 10 and her husband.Then killed herself.

I wonder if those kids would still be alive if this woman found it difficult to get a gun ?

Is it just possible ?

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

 

[Carl in Michigan]

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

You lie.

Do you even know WHO is committing those murders and other gun crimes? How does violating their Second Amendment prevent a gun crime?

 

[2aguy]

Family of 4 dies in Texas hotel shooting

A family of 4 dead. Mom shot her kids aged 5 and 10 and her husband.Then killed herself.

I wonder if those kids would still be alive if this woman found it difficult to get a gun ?

Is it just possible ?

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

True.

And a gun owner is much more likely to be killed by his own gun than using that gun in self-defense.

But that’s an issue which has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or the appropriateness of its case law.

And that lie has been disproven over and over again...the research they based that lie on used the homes of criminals, drug addicts, alcoholics and individuals with long records of violence and police interaction....vs. the 600 million guns in private homes that aren't used to murder anyone, let alone family members.....moron.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Gun violence in America is the consequence of America being an inherently violent society, considerably more than other countries

ONLY due to our minority population. White Euro-Americans are a pretty peaceful bunch.

 

[2aguy]

Family of 4 dies in Texas hotel shooting

A family of 4 dead. Mom shot her kids aged 5 and 10 and her husband.Then killed herself.

I wonder if those kids would still be alive if this woman found it difficult to get a gun ?

Is it just possible ?

Freedom must be consistently acknowledged and protected in order for freedom to have any value or meaning.

The American Constitution is not a ‘cafeteria plan,’ one cannot pick and choose the rights he likes and ignore the rights he doesn’t like.

Conservatives in the United States are infamous for this: they oppose the states placing restrictions on firearms yet support states’ efforts to compel a woman to give birth against her will, or denying same-sex couples access to marriage law.

The Second Amendment codifies an individual right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense; seeking to place an undue burden on the right to obtain a firearm violates the Second Amendment.

Just as those who oppose abortion must find a way to end the practice which comports with 14th Amendment jurisprudence and the right to privacy, so too must those wishing to end gun violence find the means to do so which is consistent with the Second Amendment.

The freedom Americans enjoy is the freedom to find real, actual solutions to problems that do not jeopardize the rights and protected liberties of the people – a freedom unique to our Constitutional Republic, and lacking in most democracies.

Im not an expert on the US constitution but wasnt there a reference to a "well regulated militia" ?
You dont hear much about these organisations.

Yes...you are not an expert....our experts in the Supreme Court have stated we have a Right to own and carry guns as Individuals with nothing to do with a militia...but thanks for asking...

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf



Page 21...

Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.

--------------



We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

--------

In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote that “urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’” I

---



3. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense.

-----------




-------------

In numerous instances, “bear arms” was unambiguously used to refer to the carrying of weapons outside of an organized militia. The most prominent examples are those most relevant to the Second Amendment: Nine state constitutional provisions written in the 18th century or the first two decades of the 19th, which enshrined a right of citizens to “bear arms in defense of themselves and the state” or “bear arms in defense of himself and the state.” 8 It is clear from those formulations that “bear arms” did not refer only to carry ing a weapon in an organized military unit. Justice James Wilson interpreted the Pennsylvania Constitution’s armsbearing right, for example, as a recognition of the natural right of defense “of one’s person or house”—what he called the law of “self preservation.”




As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.”



-----------

There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms

 

[Coyote]

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

You lie.

Do you even know WHO is committing those murders and other gun crimes? How does violating their Second Amendment prevent a gun crime?

If you are going to accuse me of lying then disprove what I said.

What specific action is violating someone’s 2nd Amendment Rights?

 

[2aguy]

Man shot wife, 2 kids, then self in Santa Clarita home, investigators say

Here is another family of four enjoying their second amendment freedoms on the same day as the citizens in the OP.

As a rhetorical aside, the premise of your ‘freedom’ threads fail as a hasty generalization fallacy – anecdotal accounts are not ‘representative’ of the whole.

They also fail as a false comparison fallacy – to compare the United States with other countries with more strict gun laws

Gun violence in America is the consequence of America being an inherently violent society, considerably more than other countries, having little to do with the availability of guns; a society where violence is glorified and sanctioned as a legitimate means of conflict resolution – from corporal punishment in our schools to capital punishment in our prisons.

You rail only against the tip of the iceberg.

Wrong again.....we have tiny populations, usually confined to democrat party controlled cities that are extremely violent...the rest of the country, with lots of guns...is as peaceful or more so than European countries...

 

[2aguy]

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

You lie.

Do you even know WHO is committing those murders and other gun crimes? How does violating their Second Amendment prevent a gun crime?

If you are going to accuse me of lying then disprove what I said.

What specific action is violating someone’s 2nd Amendment Rights?

California New York and Massachusetts have openly violated the Right to keep and Bear arms.....magazine bans, concealed carry bans, and may issue laws, as well as assault weapon bans.....licensing, registration, also violate the right...

 

[Coyote]

Family of 4 dies in Texas hotel shooting

A family of 4 dead. Mom shot her kids aged 5 and 10 and her husband.Then killed herself.

I wonder if those kids would still be alive if this woman found it difficult to get a gun ?

Is it just possible ?

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

 

[2aguy]

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

And you are wrong....again...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

S

 

[2aguy]

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

And 21 years of actual facts....

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 16.3 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

 

[Coyote]

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

You lie.

Do you even know WHO is committing those murders and other gun crimes? How does violating their Second Amendment prevent a gun crime?

If you are going to accuse me of lying then disprove what I said.

What specific action is violating someone’s 2nd Amendment Rights?

California New York and Massachusetts have openly violated the Right to keep and Bear arms.....magazine bans, concealed carry bans, and may issue laws, as well as assault weapon bans.....licensing, registration, also violate the right...

None of that violates the right. No right is unrestricted.

Can they purchase a firearm?

 

[2aguy]

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

And you have these papers...

Do Right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime? - Crime Prevention Research Center



A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)

The Concealed‐Handgun Debate, John R. Lott, Jr., Journal of Legal Studies, January 1998

Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998

The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003

Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198

Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns

More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr.

“More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014

“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008 It is also available here..

“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009

“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013

“On the Choice of Control Variables in the Crime Equation” by Carlisle E. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, Oxford Bulletin of Economics and Statistics, Volume 72, Issue 5, pages 696–715, October 2010.

More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr.

Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr.

For the data errors in the one published paper by Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang that claims to find a bad effect from right-to-carry laws on aggravated assaults see this paper.

In addition, Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang have retracted their original claim that the my research could not be replicated. Their argument was that Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang could not replicate the replication work done by the National Research Council that had replicated my research.



In an Erratum note published in October 2012 they concede: “Subsequent to the publication of this article, members of the NRC panel demonstrated to the authors that the results in question were replicable if the authors used the data and statistical models described in Chapter 6 of the NRC (2004) report.”

 

[2aguy]

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

You lie.

Do you even know WHO is committing those murders and other gun crimes? How does violating their Second Amendment prevent a gun crime?

If you are going to accuse me of lying then disprove what I said.

What specific action is violating someone’s 2nd Amendment Rights?

California New York and Massachusetts have openly violated the Right to keep and Bear arms.....magazine bans, concealed carry bans, and may issue laws, as well as assault weapon bans.....licensing, registration, also violate the right...

None of that violates the right. No right is unrestricted.

Can they purchase a firearm?

Yes...it does....according to your logic, Poll Taxes and Literacy tests for voting...which democrats used against blacks, do not violate the Right to Vote, neither does censorship of books........

They can't buy magazines over 10 rounds, they can't buy civilian rifles, and they can't carry guns without permits which those states refuse to give out.....

Poll Taxes and Literacy tests violate the Right, even if blacks were still allowed to vote...

 

[Coyote]

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

And you are wrong....again...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

S

You can’t possibly have read my source and put together this cut and paste in just two minutes. This an article looking at as many as 30 different studies...printed in October 2017.

 

[2aguy]

Flor De Maria Pineda Canas went into the psych ward at San Jacinto Methodist Hospital last year.

I wonder if she would have found another method had the gun not been available. Is it just possible?

Charlotte police: Mother kills two children, self in double murder-suicide

How about the one above? Or does it not count because it interferes with your "message".

While I realize that guns are an awesome political football, the common denominator in the vast majority of these shootings is mental illness. It isn't taken seriously in the US. It's damn sure not taken seriously in Texas.

Its shocking isnt it. You will never eliminate murder but you can make it less likely.

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

They cite Kellerman in your link...this guy....

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4

Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example,

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested,

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use,

32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight,

and 17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required.

Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home.

One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6

While Kellermann and associates began with 444 cases of homicides in the home, cases were dropped from the study for a variety of reasons, and in the end, only 316 matched pairs were used in the final analysis, representing only 71.2 percent of the original 444 homicide cases.

This reduction increased tremendously the chance for sampling bias. Analysis of why 28.8 percent of the cases were dropped would have helped ascertain if the study was compromised by the existence of such biases, but Dr. Kellermann, in an unprecedented move, refused to release his data and make it available for other researchers to analyze.

Likewise, Prof. Gary Kleck of Florida State University has written me that knowledge about what guns were kept in the home is essential, but this data in his study was never released by Dr. Kellermann: "The most likely bit of data that he would want to withhold is information as to whether the gun used in the gun homicides was kept in the home of the victim."*

As Kates and associates point out, "The validity of the NEJM 1993 study¹s conclusions depend on the control group matching the homicide cases in every way (except, of course, for the occurrence of the homicide)."6

However, in this study, the controls collected did not match the cases in many ways (i.e., for example, in the amount of substance abuse, single parent versus two parent homes, etc.) contributing to further untoward effects, and decreasing the inference that can legitimately be drawn from the data of this study. Be that as it may, "The conclusion that gun ownership is a risk factor for homicide derives from the finding of a gun in 45.4 percent of the homicide case households, but in only 35.8 percent of the control household. Whether that finding is accurate, however, depends on the truthfulness of control group interviewees in admitting the presence of a gun or guns in the home."6

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

It seems every discussion about gun violence ends up with each side accusing the other of an extreme position they aren’t actually advocating. Surely there is a lot of space between disarm the citizenry and we should have the right to buy any weaponry any time anywhere without restriction.

You can argue that these people would have found the means to kill without a gun, but that ignores the critical issue here. A gun is easily at hand, fast, effective and lethal with very little for thought. An act that may often be impulsive doesn’t have anything to put the brakes on it especially where mental illness and suicide are involved. If you don’t have a gun other methods require more effort, planning, time and might not be as effective providing at least some opportunity for rescue or less harm to surrounding people.

Some one brought up locking up mentally ill people and getting them off the streets, but that is pretty dicey isn’t it? Most are more likely to be the victims of violence then the perpetrators. If they aren’t a clear danger to themselves or others how are you going to do that? You are refusing to put restrictions on gun rights for some by taking away the freedom of others. And that particular community is among our most vulnerable when it comes to rights being taken from them.

Mental illness is hugely underfunded and far more likely to be defunded first. Texas is a joke when it comes to parity and treatment.

It is a fact that the easy availability and access to guns in this country makes it far easier to kill. It is also a fact that our Constitution grants us a specific right to own firearms.

But all our rights have some limits, usually when they conflict with public safety or the rights of others.

Practical limitations? Perhaps in some cases. Ideological limitations in opposition to the Constitutional mandate, no. For that you need to seek an amendment.

It is standard MO to disarm a populace you wish to conquer, and you cannot honestly state in view of history that the bulk of Democrats would not vote legislation to disarm.

That will not be permitted to happen here.

 

[2aguy]

You can stop murder...with a gun...this British family didn't have a gun...and were murdered by a homeless man with a knife....

Chilling CCTV shows homeless killer lurking in family's garden before murders

Chilling CCTV shows a homeless man 'dressed as a ninja' crawling through a family's garden before launching a brutal knife attack that left a mum and her son dead.

The footage shows Aaron Barley lurking outside the home and emerging as dad Peter Wilkinson took the family's dog for a walk.

Hmmmm...this same scenario...but in the U.S....

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.



Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.


Deputies: Mass Stabbing Suspect Stopped When Fourth Target Pulled a Gun - Breitbart

Deputies say a suspect who allegedly stabbed three people in Seminole, Florida, stopped when a fourth individual pulled a gun on him.
The incident occurred Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.
According to The Patch, the incident began when witnesses alleged they saw 49-year-old Bobby Martin Watson trying to rob a woman in a Publix parking lot. Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office deputies indicate that the woman–44-year-old Rosanna Lynn–struggled with Watson and he stabbed her.
Watson then ran and a witness–44-year-old Christopher McMann–approached, only to get stabbed as well.
Deputies said a second good Samaritan–31-year-old Travis Jones–then chased and tackled Watson, only to be “stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle that ensued.” Forty-year-old Donald Rush saw what was happening, grabbed his gun from his vehicle and ran at Watson. He was able to take away the knife “and held [Watson] at gunpoint until deputies arrived.”
Rush did not have to fire his gun. The sight of the brandished firearm was enough to stop the attack.
Watson was booked into the Pinellas County jail. He faces charges of “armed robbery and three counts of aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.”

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

Yeah....no.....

On Average, Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attack.....

criminals used guns to commit murder 11,004 times in 2016....and of those, 70-80% of the victims are other criminals.

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

That table says nothing about using guns to stop homicides...in fact, this study in a recent article says differently.

More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows

And you are wrong....again...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

S

You can’t possibly have read my source and put together this cut and paste in just two minutes. This an article looking at as many as 30 different studies...printed in October 2017.

They cite Kellerman at the beginning of the article.......

So what does the research say? By far the most famous series of studies on this issue was conducted in the late 1980s and 1990s by Arthur Kellermann, now dean of the F. Edward Hébert School of Medicine at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, and his colleagues. In one, published in 1993 in the New England Journal of Medicine and funded by the CDC, he and his colleagues identified 444 people who had been killed between 1987 and 1992 at home in three U.S. regions—Shelby County, Tennessee, King County, Washington State, and Cuyahoga County, Ohio—and then collected details about them and their deaths from local police, medical examiners and people who had been close to the victims. They found that a gun in the home was associated with a nearly threefold increase in the odds that someone would be killed at home by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

This Guy.......so no, that research is already crap........and I gave you actual, peer reviewed papers that say you are wrong...

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4

Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example,

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested,

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use,

32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight,

and 17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required.

Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home.

One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6

While Kellermann and associates began with 444 cases of homicides in the home, cases were dropped from the study for a variety of reasons, and in the end, only 316 matched pairs were used in the final analysis, representing only 71.2 percent of the original 444 homicide cases.

This reduction increased tremendously the chance for sampling bias. Analysis of why 28.8 percent of the cases were dropped would have helped ascertain if the study was compromised by the existence of such biases, but Dr. Kellermann, in an unprecedented move, refused to release his data and make it available for other researchers to analyze.

Likewise, Prof. Gary Kleck of Florida State University has written me that knowledge about what guns were kept in the home is essential, but this data in his study was never released by Dr. Kellermann: "The most likely bit of data that he would want to withhold is information as to whether the gun used in the gun homicides was kept in the home of the victim."*

As Kates and associates point out, "The validity of the NEJM 1993 study¹s conclusions depend on the control group matching the homicide cases in every way (except, of course, for the occurrence of the homicide)."6

However, in this study, the controls collected did not match the cases in many ways (i.e., for example, in the amount of substance abuse, single parent versus two parent homes, etc.) contributing to further untoward effects, and decreasing the inference that can legitimately be drawn from the data of this study. Be that as it may, "The conclusion that gun ownership is a risk factor for homicide derives from the finding of a gun in 45.4 percent of the homicide case households, but in only 35.8 percent of the control household. Whether that finding is accurate, however, depends on the truthfulness of control group interviewees in admitting the presence of a gun or guns in the home."6

 

[Coyote]

For every murder that is stopped with a gun....many times that number are committed with a gun.

You lie.

Do you even know WHO is committing those murders and other gun crimes? How does violating their Second Amendment prevent a gun crime?

If you are going to accuse me of lying then disprove what I said.

What specific action is violating someone’s 2nd Amendment Rights?

California New York and Massachusetts have openly violated the Right to keep and Bear arms.....magazine bans, concealed carry bans, and may issue laws, as well as assault weapon bans.....licensing, registration, also violate the right...

None of that violates the right. No right is unrestricted.

Can they purchase a firearm?

Yes...it does....according to your logic, Poll Taxes and Literacy tests for voting...which democrats used against blacks, do not violate the Right to Vote, neither does censorship of books........

They can't buy magazines over 10 rounds, they can't buy civilian rifles, and they can't carry guns without permits which those states refuse to give out.....

Poll Taxes and Literacy tests violate the Right, even if blacks were still allowed to vote...

Poll taxes and literacy tests prevent people from voting.

Requiring registration does not disenfranchise anyone.

Placing reasonable limits on what you can buy doesn’t either. It isn’t an unlimited right. You can still purchase many firearms. Conceal carry is not a right.

Thus far the only groups deprived of that right are felons and mentally ill...correct?