More History Before 1967

[georgephillip]

Chomsky's problem is bias, not ignorance. If you look up "self hating Jew" in the dictionary, you'll find his picture.

And, let me assure you... I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Why would I bother? Your mind is closed to the truth.

You consider yourself a spokesperson for the truth?

If that's how you wish to term it... sure, why not? I speak the truth, and I make no apologies for doing so.

What truth do you speak about Gush Emunin?

"THE RELIGIOUS WAR: Gush Emunim adherents and other Israeli religious zealots plan it. They're active in politics, hold seats in the Knesset, are Netanyahu government coalition partners (including Shas, United Torah and Yisrael Beiteinu) and are prominently represented in Israel's military throughout its ranks and rabbinate.

"Chief military rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, called Operation Cast Lead a 'religious war' in which it was 'immoral' to show mercy to an enemy of 'murderers'.

"Many others feel the same way, prominently among them graduates of Hesder Yeshivat schools that combine extremist religious indoctrination with military service to defend the Jewish state."

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

 

[HistoryBefore67]

You consider yourself a spokesperson for the truth?

If that's how you wish to term it... sure, why not? I speak the truth, and I make no apologies for doing so.

What truth do you speak about Gush Emunin?

"THE RELIGIOUS WAR: Gush Emunim adherents and other Israeli religious zealots plan it. They're active in politics, hold seats in the Knesset, are Netanyahu government coalition partners (including Shas, United Torah and Yisrael Beiteinu) and are prominently represented in Israel's military throughout its ranks and rabbinate.

"Chief military rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, called Operation Cast Lead a 'religious war' in which it was 'immoral' to show mercy to an enemy of 'murderers'.

"Many others feel the same way, prominently among them graduates of Hesder Yeshivat schools that combine extremist religious indoctrination with military service to defend the Jewish state."

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

What did I tell you about mischaracterizing my points?

Now you're in a time out.

 

[georgephillip]

If that's how you wish to term it... sure, why not? I speak the truth, and I make no apologies for doing so.

What truth do you speak about Gush Emunin?

"THE RELIGIOUS WAR: Gush Emunim adherents and other Israeli religious zealots plan it. They're active in politics, hold seats in the Knesset, are Netanyahu government coalition partners (including Shas, United Torah and Yisrael Beiteinu) and are prominently represented in Israel's military throughout its ranks and rabbinate.

"Chief military rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, called Operation Cast Lead a 'religious war' in which it was 'immoral' to show mercy to an enemy of 'murderers'.

"Many others feel the same way, prominently among them graduates of Hesder Yeshivat schools that combine extremist religious indoctrination with military service to defend the Jewish state."

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

What did I tell you about mischaracterizing my points?

Now you're in a time out.

Is English your first language?

"The earlier influence of fundamentalist Rabbi Abraham Kook (1865-1935), or Kuk, was significant. He preached Jewish supremacy and said: 'The difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews -- all of them in all different levels -- is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.'

"His teachings helped create the settler movement, and his son, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook, founded the extremist Gush Emunim (GE) under the slogan: 'The Land of Israel, for the people of Israel, according to the Torah of Israel.'"

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it.

"Kook was Israel's first chief rabbi. In his honour, and to continue his teachings, the extremist Merkaz Harav (the Rabbi's Centre) was founded in 1924 as a yeshiva or fundamentalist religious college. It teaches that, 'non-Jews living under Jewish law in Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) must either be enslaved as water carriers and wood hewers, or banished, or exterminated.'"

"It gets no more extremist than that, and highlights the dangers for Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories. Their lives and welfare are being sacrificed for a Greater Israel of Jews alone."

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

Do you believe God created the world for Jews?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Since you are so adept at cutting and pasting, why don't you go ahead and cut and paste the post where I said that "God created the world for Jews."

Go ahead.

We'll wait.

 

[georgephillip]

Since you are so adept at cutting and pasting, why don't you go ahead and cut and paste the post where I said that "God created the world for Jews."

Go ahead.

We'll wait.

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Is English your first language?

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

 

[toastman]

George, he asked you to quote where HE said that.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Guess English isn't George's first language.

I'm waiting for you to cut and paste from one of MY POSTS. If you can't, then you should simply apologize to me for mischaracterizing my position, and then we can move on.

Still waiting.

 

[georgephillip]

George, he asked you to quote where HE said that.

Toast...I never claimed he said it; I asked if he agreed with a quotation I attributed to Stephen Lendman in Al-Ahram Weekly:

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Apparently HB67 doesn't want to answer my question so he resorts to typical hasbara deception.

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

 

[toastman]

George, he asked you to quote where HE said that.

Toast...I never claimed he said it; I asked if he agreed with a quotation I attributed to Stephen Lendman in Al-Ahram Weekly:

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Apparently HB67 doesn't want to answer my question so he resorts to typical hasbara deception.

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

I'm sure there are several hardcore religious extremists who believe that, but VERY FEW. It is not something that is taught to Jewish children in school and it is certainly not taught to children by their parents.

 

[georgephillip]

Guess English isn't George's first language.

I'm waiting for you to cut and paste from one of MY POSTS. If you can't, then you should simply apologize to me for mischaracterizing my position, and then we can move on.

Still waiting.

I'm guessing I'll wait much longer for your answer to my simple question: Do you agree with the truth according to Gush Emunim as contained in the following quote:

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Or did you mischaracterize your ability to speak the truth?

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

 

[georgephillip]

George, he asked you to quote where HE said that.

Toast...I never claimed he said it; I asked if he agreed with a quotation I attributed to Stephen Lendman in Al-Ahram Weekly:

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Apparently HB67 doesn't want to answer my question so he resorts to typical hasbara deception.

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

I'm sure there are several hardcore religious extremists who believe that, but VERY FEW. It is not something that is taught to Jewish children in school and it is certainly not taught to children by their parents.

Do you have any idea what percentage of the IDF believe God created the world for Jews?
What percentage of Hesder Yeshivat graduates hold such beliefs?

 

[MHunterB]

I suspect the 'percentage is no greater than the percentage of Christians who believe in the 'Serpent Seed' doctrine.

 

[toastman]

Toast...I never claimed he said it; I asked if he agreed with a quotation I attributed to Stephen Lendman in Al-Ahram Weekly:

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Apparently HB67 doesn't want to answer my question so he resorts to typical hasbara deception.

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

I'm sure there are several hardcore religious extremists who believe that, but VERY FEW. It is not something that is taught to Jewish children in school and it is certainly not taught to children by their parents.

Do you have any idea what percentage of the IDF believe God created the world for Jews?
What percentage of Hesder Yeshivat graduates hold such beliefs?

The belief that God created the world for Jews???
I'd say .000001% , if that

You've never been to Israel, you've likely never met an IDF soldiers and you have no idea about what is taught in the IDF, so why make such outlandish claims .
I am Jewish, I went to Jewish elementary and Jewish high school. I've been to Israel over ten times and i have well over 50 relatives there (like 98% of my family lives there). All of them were in the army, and some are still in the army. I have NEVER once heard this claim that 'God created the world for Jews',. Like, never.

Please George, stop trying to vilify Jewish people by bringing up this crap, it's simply not true.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Guess English isn't George's first language.

I'm waiting for you to cut and paste from one of MY POSTS. If you can't, then you should simply apologize to me for mischaracterizing my position, and then we can move on.

Still waiting.

I'm guessing I'll wait much longer for your answer to my simple question: Do you agree with the truth according to Gush Emunim as contained in the following quote:

"Like the elder Kook, GE sees state power as a way forward to a new messianic era. It believes that God created the world for Jews. Others are lesser beings. Greater Israel belongs to Jews alone, and holy wars are acceptable to attain it."

Or did you mischaracterize your ability to speak the truth?

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

Obviously I don't view things that way, dumbass. I've never even met anyone who does.

 

[georgephillip]

"Institute Professor Noam A. Chomsky and scholar Israel Shahak addressed the issues of Jewish fundamentalism in the domestic and foreign policy of Israel in a forum last Thursday (11/'94).

"The pair spoke to a full crowd in 26-100 and met with opposition from several members of the audience when individuals had the opportunity to voice comments and ask questions..."

"Audience members had the opportunity to voice their questions and comments after Chomsky and Shahak spoke. Some accused Chomsky and Shahak of exaggerating and not speaking the truth. One audience member called Chomsky a liar.

"Another accused Chomsky of promoting 'a cesspool of misinformation.'

"Echoing the words of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin about Baruch Goldstein, the Jew who last February murdered 29 Palestinians in a mosque in Israel, the audience member said to Chomsky, 'We spit you out with every bit of power we have.'

"Chomsky responded, 'The feeling is mutual.'

"In reply to the audience's hostility, Shahak said that Jews who perpetuate a 'denial of common humanity' are "Jewish Nazis."

"Another audience member angrily responded to Shahak, 'You were lucky you survived [the Holocaust], but 6 million Jews didn't.'

"Several others said that Shahak's use of the phrase 'Jewish Nazis' was disrespectful to the memory of the Holocaust.

"Shahak maintained that 'Jews can become Nazis.'"

http://tech.mit.edu/V114/N55/chomsky.55n.html

 

[georgephillip]

I suspect the 'percentage is no greater than the percentage of Christians who believe in the 'Serpent Seed' doctrine.

On what data is your "suspicion" based on?

"Hesder service usually lasts a total of five years, within which participants are officially soldiers in the IDF. Through those five years, 16 months are dedicated to actual army service, comprising both training and active duty.

"In some Hesder Yeshivas service lasts six years of which 24 months are dedicated to actual army service. Almost all Hesder Yeshiva students serve in the army as combat soldiers.

"The remainder of the time in Hesder is designated for full time Torah study.

"Some students study for several years after this mandatory term. Yeshivot Hesder typically have 150–300 students; some of the larger yeshivot have up to 500 students while some have fewer than 100 students."

Hesder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HistoryBefore67]

George... prove you're NOT a platypus.

That is, after all, how this works, right? One person makes an absurd accusation, and the other person then has to disprove it.

So... prove you're not a platypus.

 

[georgephillip]

I'm sure there are several hardcore religious extremists who believe that, but VERY FEW. It is not something that is taught to Jewish children in school and it is certainly not taught to children by their parents.

Do you have any idea what percentage of the IDF believe God created the world for Jews?
What percentage of Hesder Yeshivat graduates hold such beliefs?

The belief that God created the world for Jews???
I'd say .000001% , if that

You've never been to Israel, you've likely never met an IDF soldiers and you have no idea about what is taught in the IDF, so why make such outlandish claims .
I am Jewish, I went to Jewish elementary and Jewish high school. I've been to Israel over ten times and i have well over 50 relatives there (like 98% of my family lives there). All of them were in the army, and some are still in the army. I have NEVER once heard this claim that 'God created the world for Jews',. Like, never.

Please George, stop trying to vilify Jewish people by bringing up this crap, it's simply not true.

Toast, I'm not trying to vilify all Jewish people; I'm trying to point out to everyone who has never visited Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza how biased some Jewish people (and their supporters) are when it comes to criticizing racist, religious fundamentalism and the role it plays in Palestine.

Your side is absolutely right to criticize racist religious Arabs for their desire to exterminate the Jews in Israel; however, imho, you do yourself a disservice when you don't condemn the significant number of elite Jews in Israel, like the chief military rabbi who labelled Operation Cast Lead a "religious war."

"Chief military rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, called Operation Cast Lead a 'religious war' in which it was 'immoral' to show mercy to an enemy of 'murderers'. Many others feel the same way, prominently among them graduates of Hesder Yeshivat schools that combine extremist religious indoctrination with military service to defend the Jewish state."

Al-Ahram Weekly | Focus | Religious fundamentalism in Israel

Would you be surprised to find out the biggest threat to Israel comes from its most religious citizens?

 

[georgephillip]

George... prove you're NOT a platypus.

That is, after all, how this works, right? One person makes an absurd accusation, and the other person then has to disprove it.

So... prove you're not a platypus.

Only in the minds of ESL hasbara hacks does a platypus bear the slightest resemblance to Avraham Stern:

"During World War II, Lehi initially sought alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine.[2]

"On the belief that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis.[2] During World War II it declared that it would establish a Jewish state based upon 'nationalist and totalitarian principles'.[2]

"After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move it towards support of Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union.[1] In 1944 Lehi officially declared its support for National Bolshevism."

Lehi (group) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HistoryBefore67]

George... prove you're NOT a platypus.

That is, after all, how this works, right? One person makes an absurd accusation, and the other person then has to disprove it.

So... prove you're not a platypus.

Only in the minds of ESL hasbara hacks does a platypus bear the slightest resemblance to Avraham Stern:

"During World War II, Lehi initially sought alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine.[2]

"On the belief that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis.[2] During World War II it declared that it would establish a Jewish state based upon 'nationalist and totalitarian principles'.[2]

"After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move it towards support of Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union.[1] In 1944 Lehi officially declared its support for National Bolshevism."

Lehi (group) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm afraid I can't continue this discussion with you until you prove to us, with verifiable sources, that you are not a platypus.