More History Before 1967

[toastman]

The problem with Tinmore and Sherri, is that they don't know what 'terrorism' really is..
They consider what the IDF and IAF does to be terrorism,...im guessing its because the casualties on the Palestinian side are always way higher..

It is an Israeli propaganda campaign.

Tinmore, a few months ago I questioned you about your thoughts about Hamas not being a terrorist organization. I remember asking you something along the lines of "If Hamas is not a terrorist organization, then do you believe that there are no terrorist groups in the ME?"
You answered that "sure there are terrorist organizations in the ME, but Hamas is not one of them"
So I ask you now, what groups in the ME do you consider to be terrorists?

As for calling Hamas a terrorist organization being an Israeli propaganda campaign, what about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_designation_of_Hamas

Is it an Australian propaganda campaign too ?
A U.S propaganda campaign ?
A Canadian propaganda campaign ?
A Norwegian propaganda campaign ?
A Turkish propaganda campaign ?
A Japanese propaganda campaign ?
a Jordanian propaganda campaign ?
A Russian propaganda campaign ?
A British propaganda campaign ?


You have just been....ToastOWNED !

 

[P F Tinmore]

The problem with Tinmore and Sherri, is that they don't know what 'terrorism' really is..
They consider what the IDF and IAF does to be terrorism,...im guessing its because the casualties on the Palestinian side are always way higher..

It is an Israeli propaganda campaign.

Tinmore, a few months ago I questioned you about your thoughts about Hamas not being a terrorist organization. I remember asking you something along the lines of "If Hamas is not a terrorist organization, then do you believe that there are no terrorist groups in the ME?"
You answered that "sure there are terrorist organizations in the ME, but Hamas is not one of them"
So I ask you now, what groups in the ME do you consider to be terrorists?

As for calling Hamas a terrorist organization being an Israeli propaganda campaign, what about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_designation_of_Hamas

Is it an Australian propaganda campaign too ?
A U.S propaganda campaign ?
A Canadian propaganda campaign ?
A Norwegian propaganda campaign ?

Norway was the first Western country to recognize the 2007 Palestinian government consisting of both Hamas and Fatah, and Norwegian officials have met with Hamas representatives on several occasions. "We know that the USA and the EU have legal obligations since they have Hamas on their terrorist list. We must be able to take an independent decision about contact," Norwegian foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre responded to a 2006 United States' attempt to dissuade Norwegian contact with Hamas.[378]

A Turkish propaganda campaign ?

The Turkish government met with Hamas leaders in February 2006, after the organization's victory in the Palestinian elections. In 2010, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan described Hamas as "resistance fighters who are struggling to defend their land."

A Japanese propaganda campaign ?
a Jordanian propaganda campaign ?
A Russian propaganda campaign ?

Russia does not designate Hamas a terrorist organisation, and held direct talks with Hamas in 2006, after Hamas won the Palestine elections, stating that it did so to press Hamas to reject violence and recognise Israel.

A British propaganda campaign ?

You have just been....ToastOWNED !

Not!

There are almost 200 countries in the world. Only a few hold the political opinion that Hamas are terrorists.

 

[P F Tinmore]

toastman, P F Tinmore, et al,

First, I think I used the term: "convincing arguments," relative to the Tinmore/Munnerly position. And then made an association between their arguments and the wider Max Weber concept, as an underlying "source of legitimate physical force;" in the form of a rhetorical question: "If you concur."

I don't buy-in to the argument. I tend to be more aligned with the SECGEN when he says: "Nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

Rocco, concerning the legit arguments of Tinmore and Sherri stating that the Palestinians have resisted the occupation, can you elaborate on that please? What examples did they give ?
As far as I'm concerned, launching rockets into unarmed civilian areas is not resisting.

This should be good.

(COMMENT)

These are just a few statements, in recent times, that come to mind. Remembering that my concept of "resisting occupation" is different that the Tinmore/Munnerly concept; and what is appropriate resistance. See more at a similar discussion on this view. #105 (permalink)

Everyone in the world except Israel says Gaza is still occupied.

That said, two thirds of the people in Gaza cannot return to their homes because they are occupied.

Most Respectfully,
R

Good post, thanks.

BTW, What would be an appropriate and effective way for the Palestinians to resist the occupation?

 

[toastman]

It is an Israeli propaganda campaign.

Tinmore, a few months ago I questioned you about your thoughts about Hamas not being a terrorist organization. I remember asking you something along the lines of "If Hamas is not a terrorist organization, then do you believe that there are no terrorist groups in the ME?"
You answered that "sure there are terrorist organizations in the ME, but Hamas is not one of them"
So I ask you now, what groups in the ME do you consider to be terrorists?

As for calling Hamas a terrorist organization being an Israeli propaganda campaign, what about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_designation_of_Hamas

Is it an Australian propaganda campaign too ?
A U.S propaganda campaign ?
A Canadian propaganda campaign ?
A Norwegian propaganda campaign ?

A Turkish propaganda campaign ?

A Japanese propaganda campaign ?
a Jordanian propaganda campaign ?
A Russian propaganda campaign ?

Russia does not designate Hamas a terrorist organisation, and held direct talks with Hamas in 2006, after Hamas won the Palestine elections, stating that it did so to press Hamas to reject violence and recognise Israel.

A British propaganda campaign ?

You have just been....ToastOWNED !

Not!

There are almost 200 countries in the world. Only a few hold the political opinion that Hamas are terrorists.

Not all 200 countries have designated them as anything.
The thing is, Terrorism has a definition. Hamas fits that definition.
Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is not an opinion, it's a fact.

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you saying Hamas does not fit into that description ??????

 

[toastman]

toastman, P F Tinmore, et al,

First, I think I used the term: "convincing arguments," relative to the Tinmore/Munnerly position. And then made an association between their arguments and the wider Max Weber concept, as an underlying "source of legitimate physical force;" in the form of a rhetorical question: "If you concur."

I don't buy-in to the argument. I tend to be more aligned with the SECGEN when he says: "Nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

This should be good.

(COMMENT)

These are just a few statements, in recent times, that come to mind. Remembering that my concept of "resisting occupation" is different that the Tinmore/Munnerly concept; and what is appropriate resistance. See more at a similar discussion on this view. #105 (permalink)


Most Respectfully,
R

Good post, thanks.

BTW, What would be an appropriate and effective way for the Palestinians to resist the occupation?

Tinmore, I have two questions for you, please answer BOTH in your next post, as you always seem to answer some of the questions I ask:

1) What do YOU think would be an effective way for the Palestinians to resist the 'occupation'

2) If Hamas is not a terrorist organization, which other Islamic groups in the ME are?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, a few months ago I questioned you about your thoughts about Hamas not being a terrorist organization. I remember asking you something along the lines of "If Hamas is not a terrorist organization, then do you believe that there are no terrorist groups in the ME?"
You answered that "sure there are terrorist organizations in the ME, but Hamas is not one of them"
So I ask you now, what groups in the ME do you consider to be terrorists?

As for calling Hamas a terrorist organization being an Israeli propaganda campaign, what about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#International_designation_of_Hamas

Is it an Australian propaganda campaign too ?
A U.S propaganda campaign ?
A Canadian propaganda campaign ?
A Norwegian propaganda campaign ?

A Turkish propaganda campaign ?

A Japanese propaganda campaign ?
a Jordanian propaganda campaign ?
A Russian propaganda campaign ?

A British propaganda campaign ?

You have just been....ToastOWNED !

Not!

There are almost 200 countries in the world. Only a few hold the political opinion that Hamas are terrorists.

Not all 200 countries have designated them as anything.
The thing is, Terrorism has a definition. Hamas fits that definition.
Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is not an opinion, it's a fact.

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you saying Hamas does not fit into that description ??????

Is defending your country a religious, political, or ideological goal?

I thought self defense was a legal right.

BTW, nationals of an occupying power are not "civilians."

So no, they are not terrorists.

 

[toastman]

Since they don't have a country, your first statement is false, AGAIN !
Do they use violence to create terror? (suicide bombings in the past, rockets into civilian areas now). YES, they do !
do they do it for a religious, political or ideological goal? YES.
Do they commit their acts of violence with disregard for non - combatants (civilians) ? FUCK YES
Oh, and most, if not all of their terrorist acts have taken place in cities that are not occupied. Oh but wait, you consider all of Israel occupied lol !!!!

Show me any document or article that says any place in Israel that's not in the West Bank, is occupied

 

[toastman]

And finally, how is launching rockets into civilian populated ares defending ones self ??? What are they defending themselves from ?? DO you even know what the word defend means ???

But the most important question of all, why must you make such a fool of yourself ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Since they don't have a country, your first statement is false, AGAIN !
Do they use violence to create terror? (suicide bombings in the past, rockets into civilian areas now). YES, they do !
do they do it for a religious, political or ideological goal? YES.
Do they commit their acts of violence with disregard for non - combatants (civilians) ? FUCK YES
Oh, and most, if not all of their terrorist acts have taken place in cities that are not occupied. Oh but wait, you consider all of Israel occupied lol !!!!

Show me any document or article that says any place in Israel that's not in the West Bank, is occupied

https://www.google.com/search?q=+++...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

[toastman]

So you type in '1948 occupied palestine' in google, then you give me the link to the search results ?

That's weak.

Show me an article or document that shows all of Israel to be occupied, now, in 2013. Or at the very least in this century

 

[P F Tinmore]

So you type in '1948 occupied palestine' in google, then you give me the link to the search results ?

That's weak.

Show me an article or document that shows all of Israel to be occupied, now, in 2013. Or at the very least in this century

Many of those results are from the last few years.

https://www.google.com/search?q=+++...08,d.dmg&fp=9b2b7d228cccac7c&biw=1280&bih=851

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

There are some things I know. But, there are an infinite number of things of which I know nothing.

Examples: Nonviolent Revolution Veterans of the Civil Rights Movement -- Nonviolent Resistance, Reform, & Revolution

Good post, thanks.

BTW, What would be an appropriate and effective way for the Palestinians to resist the occupation?

(COMMENT)

Non-violent resistance is something I know very little about (lack of imagination). I can only tell you about countermeasures relative to violent protest, armed resistance, and insurgency campaigns.

Anything I could contribute would merely be a regurgitation of famous leaders like Thoreau, Tolstoy, Gandhi, and King.

• Nonviolent resistance (or nonviolent action) comprises the practice of applying power to achieve socio-political goals through symbolic protests, economic or political noncooperation, civil disobedience and other methods, without the use of violence. It has the guiding principle of nonviolence.
  
• Passive resistance has a similar meaning, implying resistance by inertia or non-energetic compliance, as opposed to resistance by active antagonism.

Like other strategies for social change, nonviolent action can appear in various forms and degrees. It may include, for example, such varied forms as information wars, protest art, lobbying, tax refusal, boycotts or sanctions, legal/diplomatic wrestling, material sabotage, underground railroads, principled refusal of awards/honours, picketing, vigiling, leafletting, and/or general strikes.

Many leftist and socialist movements have hoped to invoke "peaceful revolution" by organizing enough strikers to completely paralyze their targets. With the state and corporate apparatus thus crippled, the workers would be able to re-organize society along radically different lines. This philosophy is favored by the legendary labor union Industrial Workers of the World, whose members are committed to organizing "One Big Union" of all workers who would launch the general strike that would end capitalism forever. There is also a current dedicated to revolutionary nonviolence within the Socialist Party USA.

Some scholars of nonviolence, arguing that many movements have pragmatically adopted the methods of nonviolent action as an effective way to achieve social or political goals, distinguish the methods of nonviolent action from the moral stance of nonviolence or non-harm towards others.

SOURCE: Nonviolent resistance - Who or What is Nonviolent resistance? Find out more

The Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) being used to support the Palestinian position is Nonviolent resistance.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

So you type in '1948 occupied palestine' in google, then you give me the link to the search results ?

That's weak.

Show me an article or document that shows all of Israel to be occupied, now, in 2013. Or at the very least in this century

Many of those results are from the last few years.

https://www.google.com/search?q=+++...08,d.dmg&fp=9b2b7d228cccac7c&biw=1280&bih=851

And the ducking continues. Show me some sort of document that proves yuour claim that all of ISrael is occupied 3

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Is it an Australian propaganda campaign too ?
A U.S propaganda campaign ?
A Canadian propaganda campaign ?
A Norwegian propaganda campaign ?

A Turkish propaganda campaign ?

A Japanese propaganda campaign ?
a Jordanian propaganda campaign ?
A Russian propaganda campaign ?

A British propaganda campaign ?




Not!

There are almost 200 countries in the world. Only a few hold the political opinion that Hamas are terrorists.

Not all 200 countries have designated them as anything.
The thing is, Terrorism has a definition. Hamas fits that definition.
Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is not an opinion, it's a fact.

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you saying Hamas does not fit into that description ??????

Is defending your country a religious, political, or ideological goal?

I thought self defense was a legal right.

BTW, nationals of an occupying power are not "civilians."

So no, they are not terrorists.

Do you actually believe the horse shit you spew?

 

[P F Tinmore]

And finally, how is launching rockets into civilian populated ares defending ones self ??? What are they defending themselves from ?? DO you even know what the word defend means ???

But the most important question of all, why must you make such a fool of yourself ?

The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by international law.

What part of that confuses you?

 

[toastman]

Occupying power?? We're not talking about the West Bank
What part of that confuses you ?

 

[toastman]

Not all 200 countries have designated them as anything.
The thing is, Terrorism has a definition. Hamas fits that definition.
Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is not an opinion, it's a fact.

Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians).

Terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you saying Hamas does not fit into that description ??????

Is defending your country a religious, political, or ideological goal?

I thought self defense was a legal right.

BTW, nationals of an occupying power are not "civilians."

So no, they are not terrorists.

Do you actually believe the horse shit you spew?

Sometimes I wonder the same thing

 

[P F Tinmore]

Occupying power?? We're not talking about the West Bank
What part of that confuses you ?

None of it.

 

[toastman]

And finally, how is launching rockets into civilian populated ares defending ones self ??? What are they defending themselves from ?? DO you even know what the word defend means ???

But the most important question of all, why must you make such a fool of yourself ?

The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by international law.

What part of that confuses you?

Once again, you have provided ZERO EVIDENCE that suggests the Jews living in cities like Haifa and Tel - Aviv for example are part of an occupying power.

Everyone who reads your posts become just a little bit dumber. May God have mercy on your soul

 

[toastman]

Where does it say here that the nationals of tel aviv or haifa for example are part of the occupying power:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel