NBA Tonight

[Rocko]

When Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins. Cleveland was the worst team when Lebron was drafted, and they made the playoffs and to the finals. The year after Lebron left they had the worst record.


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And? Is that supposed to mean Lebron is better than Jordan? He is not.

Like I say, I can see it going either way. I personally pick Jordan for one vs. one. But the case is especially there for LBJ if you're taking into account a player's effect on a team.

I don't know about that. If you were to give a prime Jordan Bosh and Wade there's no way they lose to the Mavs or Spurs in the finals.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I dont recall that. I do recall it being harder for MJ to score against the Lakers though. You got a link to some stats on your shutdown claim?

I'm going off of what I remember, but I'll dig up some stats, just to be fair.

I define shut down as 6 pts or more below your season average.

As many times as Jordan would shoot, it would be hard to hold him that far under his average.

There were plenty of times that he was held under 35 percent shooting though.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

When Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins. Cleveland was the worst team when Lebron was drafted, and they made the playoffs and to the finals. The year after Lebron left they had the worst record.


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And? Is that supposed to mean Lebron is better than Jordan? He is not.

Like I say, I can see it going either way. I personally pick Jordan for one vs. one. But the case is especially there for LBJ if you're taking into account a player's effect on a team.

I don't know about that. If you were to give a prime Jordan Bosh and Wade there's no way they lose to the Mavs or Spurs in the finals.

I don't think the Miami pieces were any better than what Jordan had; worse frankly. I could see Jordan losing those finals. And in fact, Jordan would have a much harder time co-existing b/c he is not the passer that LBJ is.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I dont recall that. I do recall it being harder for MJ to score against the Lakers though. You got a link to some stats on your shutdown claim?

I'm going off of what I remember, but I'll dig up some stats, just to be fair.

I define shut down as 6 pts or more below your season average.

well then Joe Dumars use to shut him down on the regs.

Nate McMillan did a pretty good job on Jordan. It would have been fun to see Bowen or Kawhi going at Jordan.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

Yeah nobody shutdown Jordan. Joe Dumars did the best at containing him, but no one shut him down. Ever.

Nate McMillan did in the 96 Finals. Jordan only exploded in the one game as he scored under 30 in all the other games. Jordan was 5-19 with 22 points in the clinching Game 6 and 6-19 for 23 points in Game 4. And both those games hit the 6 under average standard too.

The Bulls only scored over 100 twice in that series. Unfortunately, the Sonics choked away that series.

 

[sealybobo]

Notice Miami didnt even make the playoffs in the weak east without lebron?

But they would have if Bosh hadn't went out. Lebron makes a huge difference though; so I'm not arguing the larger point. But Miami was on the downhill, which imo is why he left; not because he wanted to win for Cleveland like he sells.

How was Miami on the down hill. This ought to be interesting.

Notice Miami didnt even make the playoffs in the weak east without lebron?

But they would have if Bosh hadn't went out. Lebron makes a huge difference though; so I'm not arguing the larger point. But Miami was on the downhill, which imo is why he left; not because he wanted to win for Cleveland like he sells.

How was Miami on the down hill. This ought to be interesting.

I dont see why Miami wouldnt be in the playoffs right now if lebron would have stayed.

But wades getting old and bosh got hurt this year. I think lebron didn't like the vibe and bolted. They can't complain. He won them 2 rings. That's double what they got from shaq.

 

[sealybobo]

When Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins. Cleveland was the worst team when Lebron was drafted, and they made the playoffs and to the finals. The year after Lebron left they had the worst record.


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And this is the fact(s) that Jordan jockers can never come to grips with; just what impact Jordan had on a team.

His impact was shown in the fact the Bulls didnt reach the Finals. It was also shown when a rusty Jordan came back at the end of the season and still almost got to the Finals.

Again, you don't know your history. The 94 Bulls make the championship instead of the Knicks if not for a bad call. Yes, Jordan was a difference maker. But he was not the dominant all encompassing presence that Jordan jockers pretend he was.

What more can you ask after 2 3peats. He owned the league for 6 years.

 

[sealybobo]

When Jordan retired the first time, the Bulls went from 57 wins to 55 wins. Cleveland was the worst team when Lebron was drafted, and they made the playoffs and to the finals. The year after Lebron left they had the worst record.


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And? Is that supposed to mean Lebron is better than Jordan? He is not.

If Jordan played against lebron mj and the Phil jackson bulls would have mentally shut lebron down much like Dallas and the spurs did those years lebron lost in Miami. Lebron was the greatest physical specimen on the floor but not a winner. He didn't will the victory. In fact he was stunned.

 

[sealybobo]

The 86 C's would have crushed them. The injured 87 C's almost beat them, anyhow.

They never had a chance. Even the media at that time was talking in terms of the poor, injured Celtics, having to play this juggernaut of a Laker team.

The '87 Lakers, was the greatest team in NBA history.

Pistons lucky magic got hurt in the 88-89 finals.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I gotta laugh at the clippers...that is all.

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

I had misremembered the 94 Bulls-Knicks details. Pippen did likely commit the foul at the end of Game 5. But the difference is that call is not made if MJ is on the team. Stern always went with the bigger cash cow.

 

[sealybobo]

I gotta laugh at the clippers...that is all.

I dont see them ever winning a championship. But what do I know? Who can I see pulling it off? Besides someone who's already done it? I can see golden state or okc. Everyone else I'll be shocked. Like the year dirk won it. Didn't see that one coming.

I dont see Memphis Atlanta washington clippers or this bulls team ever actually pulling it off.

Can't believe cleveland is still in it without love. That's how good lebron is.

How many eastern conference and finals has lebron been to since 2006? Seems like every year.

 

[Asclepias]

MJ to me was the best but Pippen is by far my favorite player ever in the NBA.

 

[sealybobo]

MJ to me was the best but Pippen is by far my favorite player ever in the NBA.

I forget how great he was because he was in Jordan's shadow but basically it'd be like if wade and lebron played together. They would never be beat, right? Or if you put shaq and Kobe together or magic Kareem and worthy all on the same team those teams would never lose. Only those teams didn't always win. Kobe and shaq won 3, right? Pippen and mj won 6 fucking times. Yea, pippen is under rated. My bad. I wish pippen would have won 1 in portland that one year. That would have raised his goat rating IMO.

 

[Asclepias]

MJ to me was the best but Pippen is by far my favorite player ever in the NBA.

I forget how great he was because he was in Jordan's shadow but basically it'd be like if wade and lebron played together. They would never be beat, right? Or if you put shaq and Kobe together or magic Kareem and robert horry on the same team those teams would never lose. Only those teams didn't always win. Kobe and shaq won 3, right? Pippen and mj won 6 fucking times. Yea, pippen is under rated. My bad. I wish pippen would have won 1 in portland that one year. That would have raised his goat rating IMO.

To me its a little different than Lebron and Wade. MJ and Pippen together have to be the best duo of all time on both sides of the ball. You gotta remember they did it 6 times without a great center in an era full of great centers.

 

[Billo_Really]

I forget how great he was because he was in Jordan's shadow but basically it'd be like if wade and lebron played together. They would never be beat, right? Or if you put shaq and Kobe together or magic Kareem and worthy all on the same team those teams would never lose. Only those teams didn't always win. Kobe and shaq won 3, right? Pippen and mj won 6 fucking times. Yea, pippen is under rated. My bad. I wish pippen would have won 1 in portland that one year. That would have raised his goat rating IMO.

That Laker team went to the finals 9 times in 10 years. It would've been 10 out of 10, if it wasn't for that bullshit, luck shot by Sampson in '86.

 

[sealybobo]

MJ to me was the best but Pippen is by far my favorite player ever in the NBA.

I forget how great he was because he was in Jordan's shadow but basically it'd be like if wade and lebron played together. They would never be beat, right? Or if you put shaq and Kobe together or magic Kareem and robert horry on the same team those teams would never lose. Only those teams didn't always win. Kobe and shaq won 3, right? Pippen and mj won 6 fucking times. Yea, pippen is under rated. My bad. I wish pippen would have won 1 in portland that one year. That would have raised his goat rating IMO.

To me its a little different than Lebron and Wade. MJ and Pippen together have to be the best duo of all time on both sides of the ball. You gotta remember they did it 6 times without a great center in an era full of great centers.

Pippen and mj did it on both sides of the court indeed. How was Tim Duncan all time defense? I know he was good defensively but was he goat great?

 

[sealybobo]

I forget how great he was because he was in Jordan's shadow but basically it'd be like if wade and lebron played together. They would never be beat, right? Or if you put shaq and Kobe together or magic Kareem and worthy all on the same team those teams would never lose. Only those teams didn't always win. Kobe and shaq won 3, right? Pippen and mj won 6 fucking times. Yea, pippen is under rated. My bad. I wish pippen would have won 1 in portland that one year. That would have raised his goat rating IMO.

That Laker team went to the finals 9 times in 10 years. It would've been 10 out of 10, if it wasn't for that bullshit, luck shot by Sampson in '86.

Yea with magic worthy and Kareem or with Kobe and shaq.

God magic was great though. Showtime.

 

[Billo_Really]

Nate McMillan did a pretty good job on Jordan. It would have been fun to see Bowen or Kawhi going at Jordan.

Bowen was a good defensive player.

 

[Asclepias]

MJ to me was the best but Pippen is by far my favorite player ever in the NBA.

I forget how great he was because he was in Jordan's shadow but basically it'd be like if wade and lebron played together. They would never be beat, right? Or if you put shaq and Kobe together or magic Kareem and robert horry on the same team those teams would never lose. Only those teams didn't always win. Kobe and shaq won 3, right? Pippen and mj won 6 fucking times. Yea, pippen is under rated. My bad. I wish pippen would have won 1 in portland that one year. That would have raised his goat rating IMO.

To me its a little different than Lebron and Wade. MJ and Pippen together have to be the best duo of all time on both sides of the ball. You gotta remember they did it 6 times without a great center in an era full of great centers.

Pippen and mj did it on both sides of the court indeed. How was Tim Duncan all time defense? I know he was good defensively but was he goat great?

I would say yes. He wasnt spectacular but he deflected and blocked a lot of shots. He was rarely out of position and took a lot of charges at least in key moments.