North Charleston : Thug robs Waffle House; Concealed carry citizen shoots him. Crime solved!

[BULLDOG]

Sorry about that one, but there are plenty of other links there, and you can always use Google to find out for yourself.

Your "other links" refer to accidents, which can happen to anyone regardless of their level of training, and so are in no way meaningful to the conversation.
So... where does this leave your point?

Not all were accidents, but a trained marksman generally doesn't have the kinds of accidents listed. Again, Google it for yourself. There are plenty of examples. People who have cc license are not inherently safer with a gun.

Your premise is like saying a NASCAR driver never has a car accident because he's a well trained driver. Which we know....haha well...not true.

Military and police even have an acronym for it..."AD". Accidents happen. FAR more often with cars or machines or sharp objects or medications or surgeries. Hell.....doctors accidentally kill 50,000 people a year.

So you also agree that the claim that license holders are inherently safe is bullshit.

You made the claim that is it. Prove it.

I was responding to the extremely common claim that most are well trained. Another example of that claim is just above in post #211.

 

[Conservative65]

Cute editorial. Lots of opinion but no link to the actual "study" from a notorious anti gun organization. If you think that that is a credible source then you need to have your head examined. I also checked on the VPC's own website and can find no link to the actual study. So, I could make the claim that CCW holders are involved in 25,000 DGU's a year that kill 5500 bad guys and it would have the exact same level of credibility.

The other stories are well known and show that out of the millions of CCW holders out there they are safer than the cops who unfortunately seem to make a habit of shooting themselves and others...,.


Search Result: Accidental Discharges - POLICE Magazine

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

You made the claim that all they have is a CC permit from a half day class. Do you have anything showing they don't have experience?

Do you have any verifiable reason to believe more than a few of them do?

Experience in the business retard and that's far more than you have that they don't.

 

[Conservative65]

Your "other links" refer to accidents, which can happen to anyone regardless of their level of training, and so are in no way meaningful to the conversation.
So... where does this leave your point?

Not all were accidents, but a trained marksman generally doesn't have the kinds of accidents listed. Again, Google it for yourself. There are plenty of examples. People who have cc license are not inherently safer with a gun.

Your premise is like saying a NASCAR driver never has a car accident because he's a well trained driver. Which we know....haha well...not true.

Military and police even have an acronym for it..."AD". Accidents happen. FAR more often with cars or machines or sharp objects or medications or surgeries. Hell.....doctors accidentally kill 50,000 people a year.

So you also agree that the claim that license holders are inherently safe is bullshit.

You made the claim that is it. Prove it.

I was responding to the extremely common claim that most are well trained. Another example of that claim is just above in post #211.

Do you have proof they aren't?

 

[BULLDOG]

Concealed Carry’s Body Count
722 deaths in 544 concealed carry shootings.

16 of those cases ruled legitimate self defense.

17 law enforcement personnel shot by concealed carry perpermits

705 civilians slain.

But there is more, also from the eitorial

177 cases where people with gun licenses were convicted of crimes including homicides,
218 cases gun suicide by the permit holder
and this
44 total lives taken by licensed individuals who first murdered others, then committed suicide.


here are a few more



Concealed-carry holder accidentally shoots himself

Concealed weapons holder accidentally shoots self, driver in Cleveland

Police: Man accidentally shoots wife in the ankle

http://bloggingblue.com/2015/08/concealed-carry-permit-holder-shoots-self-dies/

Concealed Weapon Permit Holder Accidentally Shot Self, Injured 4 Others, Cops Say | Patch

Cute editorial. Lots of opinion but no link to the actual "study" from a notorious anti gun organization. If you think that that is a credible source then you need to have your head examined. I also checked on the VPC's own website and can find no link to the actual study. So, I could make the claim that CCW holders are involved in 25,000 DGU's a year that kill 5500 bad guys and it would have the exact same level of credibility.

The other stories are well known and show that out of the millions of CCW holders out there they are safer than the cops who unfortunately seem to make a habit of shooting themselves and others...,.


Search Result: Accidental Discharges - POLICE Magazine

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

Actually I can for the large number of people I know who have both the permit and experience.

So you know most people who took that little class? How many of the 11,113,013 license holders do you know?

 

[BULLDOG]

Good for you, but that doesn't make me feel better about some rambo wannabe who paid his money and wants to shoot what he thinks is a badguy as soon as he gets a chance. We both know there are a lot of those.

Lucky for me your cares and opinions don't matter. I have been carrying concealed for over 25 years. I attended Gunsite the first time back in the 1980's and was a regular student for around 10 years. Prior to that I was active in the precision rifle arena. In all the years I have been alive i have never sought out someone to kill. I had the opportunity and was involved in a shootout with bandits in Morocco back in the day. The trick there was to NOT kill anyone as that would have caused all sorts of long term trouble. So, the goal in that situation was to shoot as close to them as possible, to let them know that we actually COULD have shot them, but were choosing not too.

They got the hint and left fortunately.

Based on law enforcement stats your fear of a bunch of "Rambo's" is totally unfounded.

Good for you. Too bad that the majority of CC license holders don't have any training other than the little half day course they take.

Are you saying that those with a CC permit never touched or shot a gun prior to taking the class?

No. I'm saying that some of them had never touched of shot a gun prior to taking the class, and many of them had rarely touched or shot a gun prior to that class and only took it because right wing radio convinced them the government was coming for the guns and the election of a black president scared them There is no reason to believe the claim that most license holders have been well trained with guns.

Without proof, there is no reason to believe your claim about lack of experience.

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

 

[BULLDOG]

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

You made the claim that all they have is a CC permit from a half day class. Do you have anything showing they don't have experience?

Do you have any verifiable reason to believe more than a few of them do?

Experience in the business retard and that's far more than you have that they don't.

With all your vast experience it should be easy for you to give reason to believe most license holders have adequate training. Sorry, but I don't think the word of an anonymous gun nut is reason to believe most are well trained.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

 

[BULLDOG]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

I'm not really sure, but cops screwing up doesn't mean cc license holders are safe with a gun.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

I'm not really sure, but cops screwing up doesn't mean cc license holders are safe with a gun.

What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

 

[BULLDOG]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

I'm not really sure, but cops screwing up doesn't mean cc license holders are safe with a gun.

What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

No reason to believe they are safe. It's quite common to hear about how well trained the holders of that license are. I'm just questioning why anyone would believe that. So far, the only answer I get is "because I just know it". Sorry, but that is not proof.

 

[Conservative65]

Cute editorial. Lots of opinion but no link to the actual "study" from a notorious anti gun organization. If you think that that is a credible source then you need to have your head examined. I also checked on the VPC's own website and can find no link to the actual study. So, I could make the claim that CCW holders are involved in 25,000 DGU's a year that kill 5500 bad guys and it would have the exact same level of credibility.

The other stories are well known and show that out of the millions of CCW holders out there they are safer than the cops who unfortunately seem to make a habit of shooting themselves and others...,.


Search Result: Accidental Discharges - POLICE Magazine

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

Actually I can for the large number of people I know who have both the permit and experience.

So you know most people who took that little class? How many of the 11,113,013 license holders do you know?

Of those I know that took it, ALL of them have a high level of experience. How many of the 11,113,013 do you know?

 

[Conservative65]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

I'm not really sure, but cops screwing up doesn't mean cc license holders are safe with a gun.

What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

No reason to believe they are safe. It's quite common to hear about how well trained the holders of that license are. I'm just questioning why anyone would believe that. So far, the only answer I get is "because I just know it". Sorry, but that is not proof.

You claim that CC permit holders have very little experience yet have provided no proof. Seems you're going with "because I said so".

 

[Conservative65]

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

You made the claim that all they have is a CC permit from a half day class. Do you have anything showing they don't have experience?

Do you have any verifiable reason to believe more than a few of them do?

Experience in the business retard and that's far more than you have that they don't.

With all your vast experience it should be easy for you to give reason to believe most license holders have adequate training. Sorry, but I don't think the word of an anonymous gun nut is reason to believe most are well trained.

Yet you think people should believe your claim that they don't. I don't think the word of a gun hater is reason to believe what you say.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

I'm not really sure, but cops screwing up doesn't mean cc license holders are safe with a gun.

What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

No reason to believe they are safe.

You did not answer my question:
What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

 

[westwall]

I agree. But it is mandatory. I have attended multiple combat pistol classes at Gunsite and will happily put my skills up against anyone.

Good for you, but that doesn't make me feel better about some rambo wannabe who paid his money and wants to shoot what he thinks is a badguy as soon as he gets a chance. We both know there are a lot of those.

Lucky for me your cares and opinions don't matter. I have been carrying concealed for over 25 years. I attended Gunsite the first time back in the 1980's and was a regular student for around 10 years. Prior to that I was active in the precision rifle arena. In all the years I have been alive i have never sought out someone to kill. I had the opportunity and was involved in a shootout with bandits in Morocco back in the day. The trick there was to NOT kill anyone as that would have caused all sorts of long term trouble. So, the goal in that situation was to shoot as close to them as possible, to let them know that we actually COULD have shot them, but were choosing not too.

They got the hint and left fortunately.

Based on law enforcement stats your fear of a bunch of "Rambo's" is totally unfounded.

Good for you. Too bad that the majority of CC license holders don't have any training other than the little half day course they take.

Are you saying that those with a CC permit never touched or shot a gun prior to taking the class?

No. I'm saying that some of them had never touched of shot a gun prior to taking the class, and many of them had rarely touched or shot a gun prior to that class and only took it because right wing radio convinced them the government was coming for the guns and the election of a black president scared them There is no reason to believe the claim that most license holders have been well trained with guns.

All evidence available to me is anecdotal but EVERYONE I know who has a CCW was very experienced in the use of firearms. In fact in one class we basically took it over after we had listened to all of the mandatory nonsense. We had an improptu shooting match and we all tried each others carry weapons. It was actually quite fun.

 

[westwall]

Cute editorial. Lots of opinion but no link to the actual "study" from a notorious anti gun organization. If you think that that is a credible source then you need to have your head examined. I also checked on the VPC's own website and can find no link to the actual study. So, I could make the claim that CCW holders are involved in 25,000 DGU's a year that kill 5500 bad guys and it would have the exact same level of credibility.

The other stories are well known and show that out of the millions of CCW holders out there they are safer than the cops who unfortunately seem to make a habit of shooting themselves and others...,.


Search Result: Accidental Discharges - POLICE Magazine

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

You made the claim that all they have is a CC permit from a half day class. Do you have anything showing they don't have experience?

Do you have any verifiable reason to believe more than a few of them do?

Personal experience and the fact that there are far, FAR more reports of cops experiencing negligent discharges and shooting innocents, as well as themselves, than there are reports of CCW's doing the same.

 

[BULLDOG]

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

Actually I can for the large number of people I know who have both the permit and experience.

So you know most people who took that little class? How many of the 11,113,013 license holders do you know?

Of those I know that took it, ALL of them have a high level of experience. How many of the 11,113,013 do you know?

Not enough to believe the majority of them are well trained.

 

[BULLDOG]

We aren't just talking about accidental discharges, and the links I gave were far from all that could be found. Your contention that most people who pay the money and sit in a little class(if required), have taken it upon themselves to get additional training to make them competent in a confrontational situation, and all have the temperament required to know when to use it. That's bullshit, and you aren't being honest with yourself if that is what you really believe.

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

You made the claim that all they have is a CC permit from a half day class. Do you have anything showing they don't have experience?

Do you have any verifiable reason to believe more than a few of them do?

Personal experience and the fact that there are far, FAR more reports of cops experiencing negligent discharges and shooting innocents, as well as themselves, than there are reports of CCW's doing the same.

An enjoyable class and a poor showing by cops is not reason to believe the majority of cc license carriers are well trained. Some sort of documentation would be. I get the impression that you think I am anti-gun. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've had guns since my daddy gave me a 410 for my 14th birthday. A realistic view of who has that license and a desire for reasonable common sense restrictions doesn't make me a gun hater.

 

[BULLDOG]

There is no reason to believe more than a few have any training other than that little class.

Just curious...
What % of CCW holders are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?
What % of police officers are involved in an accidental or erroneous shooting?

I'm not really sure, but cops screwing up doesn't mean cc license holders are safe with a gun.

What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

No reason to believe they are safe.

You did not answer my question:
What leads you to believe they are unsafe?

No verifiable adequate training. You don't think that little cc course is adequate do you?

 

[westwall]

No, I said that the majority of people with CCW's have a long history with firearms. That is a fact. The number of people with CCW's who's SOLE experience with firearms is that CCW class is vanishingly small. In my multitude of classes not one person has been a newbie.

Have you got anything to show that most people with that piece of paper have a long history with guns, or that that history includes proper training?

You made the claim that all they have is a CC permit from a half day class. Do you have anything showing they don't have experience?

Do you have any verifiable reason to believe more than a few of them do?

Personal experience and the fact that there are far, FAR more reports of cops experiencing negligent discharges and shooting innocents, as well as themselves, than there are reports of CCW's doing the same.

An enjoyable class and a poor showing by cops is not reason to believe the majority of cc license carriers are well trained. Some sort of documentation would be. I get the impression that you think I am anti-gun. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've had guns since my daddy gave me a 410 for my 14th birthday. A realistic view of who has that license and a desire for reasonable common sense restrictions doesn't make me a gun hater.

Actual newspaper reports belie your statement. There are at least two orders of magnitude more police negligent discharges reported than there are CCW reports. And, police try to hide their ND's (I know of one California DOJ agent who has had TWO ND's, one of which almost hit one of his team mates, neither one made it into an official report because he was the lead agent) so the actual number is much greater than that reported. CCW's however, are under a microscope so the slightest mistake is reported gleefully by the press.

You are simply, and utterly, wrong.