Not a Matter of Religion

[Lipush]

That is not true at all.

 

[jehan]

We expect them to live in cities and not in tents.

Do you think that if *I* went in the middle of a hellhole, put a stick and a tent and said I lived there I won't be evacuated?

And why it is ok to take out JEWS who sit 'illegally' in some place but if far out there do demand the same out of Bedouins?

Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole, though its interesting that's the image that came to mind. Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

 

[José]

Jose, this thread is abut a Muslim who is proud to serve his country. Why must you distort everything ?
Do you have anything positive to say about this ?

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

 

[Hossfly]

Jose, this thread is abut a Muslim who is proud to serve his country. Why must you distort everything ?
Do you have anything positive to say about this ?

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

What's yer problem there, skidmark? I made one post in this thread, post#5, and I invite you to read it and then tell us where I said anything or posted a link that backs your libelous claim.

 

[Hossfly]

Jose, this thread is abut a Muslim who is proud to serve his country. Why must you distort everything ?
Do you have anything positive to say about this ?

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

What's yer problem there, skidmark? I made one post in this thread, post#5, and I invite you to read it and then tell us where I said anything or posted a link that backs your libelous claim.

And another thing, Mister, I just checked that mandatory service thread and the Hossfly has one post in it and it was about the loyalty of the Druse. Don't piss off the Hossfly by spreading lies, Boy.

 

[José]

Jose, this thread is abut a Muslim who is proud to serve his country. Why must you distort everything ?
Do you have anything positive to say about this ?

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

What's yer problem there, skidmark? I made one post in this thread, post#5, and I invite you to read it and then tell us where I said anything or posted a link that backs your libelous claim.

When you say "a record number of Israeli Arabs are volunteering for national service" you're trying to suggest a palestinian loyalty to Israel that simply does not exist, a loyalty that is a figment of your imagination.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of israeli palestinians know they have the same "emotional attachment", the same "affection" towards Israel that Indians did towards 17th-19th century America or blacks towards South Africa under boer control.

 

[Hossfly]

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

What's yer problem there, skidmark? I made one post in this thread, post#5, and I invite you to read it and then tell us where I said anything or posted a link that backs your libelous claim.

When you say "a record number of Israeli Arabs are volunteering for national service" you're trying to suggest a palestinian loyalty to Israel that simply does not exist, a loyalty that is a figment of your imagination.

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of israeli palestinians know they have the same "emotional attachment", the same "affection" towards Israel that Indians did towards 17th-19th century America or blacks towards South Africa under boer control.

Hossfly posted an article in the link and not one word is to be attributed to the Hossfly. Read it again.

 

[José]

OK... if it was a wrong assumption on my part I take it all back... : )

 

[Hossfly]

OK... if it was a wrong assumption on my part I take it all back... : )

Thanks, podnuh! Maybe an eye exam at Walmart would help.

 

[Hossfly]

But the point I made there was right on the money, Forever.

The western press does convey a deceiving image of the arab citizens of Israel to westerners like Coyote.

I don't have the time right now but I'm gonna "resurrect" that thread from the dead and straighten out Lipush and Hossfly real good.

Why not write an article for La Voz de Aztlan telling how you are going to straighten out Lipush and myself? After all, there are many anti-Semitic articles printed there. After finishing with your article, can you please dig up some articles which show that the Western press "shows a deceiving image of the Arab citizens in Israel." Meanwhile, it appears to many people that the Western press seems to try to show Israel in a bad light. Perhaps the viewers should pull up articles from Honest Reporting to see what I mean.

Photo Bias in the Media

 

[toastman]

Jose, this thread is abut a Muslim who is proud to serve his country. Why must you distort everything ?
Do you have anything positive to say about this ?

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

Mentiroso !

 

[Lipush]

We expect them to live in cities and not in tents.

Do you think that if *I* went in the middle of a hellhole, put a stick and a tent and said I lived there I won't be evacuated?

And why it is ok to take out JEWS who sit 'illegally' in some place but if far out there do demand the same out of Bedouins?

Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole, though its interesting that's the image that came to mind. Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

"Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole"

Yeah, actually they do.

I live in a small town in southern Israel that happens to be surrounded by Bedouin tents that look exactly like from those cliche movies you see. Except it isn't cliche. Its real.

though its interesting that's the image that came to mind

It is the same that comes to the eye, as well.

Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

Unrecognized villages are the villages that the government doesn't accept because the residents don't play taxes. Without taxes they cannot get listed in the Israeli Tabo and cannot get any electricity or water.

Once they start paying taxes like the rest of us, they will get all those demands.

And that is not the issue with the squatters I'm speaking of. There are many who can live in Kseife or Rahat or Lakiye, but they for some reason chose not to. Which is something unexplainable because the mayors call them and want to support them. they refuse.

"The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

Bedouins are nomads. They have no real ties to any land. By self definition. It have been this way for long long years.

Once some decided that they wish to go out of that box and have cities and houses, the state of Israel was thrilled. They are lawful citizens. That is why towns around mine, especially Rahat, can afford themselves to bloom.

The squatter beduoins should be taken out and put into the cities. this situation is unacceptable as it is. The Negev is getting ruined because it.

If its ok to demand that settlers will become legal in legal towns, why not demand the same thing from people INSIDE the green line?

Is the law for Jews only?

How is THAT ok?

 

[Lipush]

Jose, this thread is abut a Muslim who is proud to serve his country. Why must you distort everything ?
Do you have anything positive to say about this ?

Toastman, the only ones distorting Israel's reality here are Lipush and Hossfly by trying to sell a handful of token palestinian arabs as something they are not.

Read the thread about mandatory civilian/military service for israeli arabs I'm going to "bring back from the dead", please.

'Lipush' Is Israeli in case you've missed.

Unlike you, I tell things I see and experience.

Not taking things out of propaganda trash cans like you.

Moron.

 

[jehan]

"Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole"

Yeah, actually they do.

I live in a small town in southern Israel that happens to be surrounded by Bedouin tents that look exactly like from those cliche movies you see. Except it isn't cliche. Its real.

though its interesting that's the image that came to mind

It is the same that comes to the eye, as well.

Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

Unrecognized villages are the villages that the government doesn't accept because the residents don't play taxes. Without taxes they cannot get listed in the Israeli Tabo and cannot get any electricity or water.

Once they start paying taxes like the rest of us, they will get all those demands.

And that is not the issue with the squatters I'm speaking of. There are many who can live in Kseife or Rahat or Lakiye, but they for some reason chose not to. Which is something unexplainable because the mayors call them and want to support them. they refuse.

"The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

Bedouins are nomads. They have no real ties to any land. By self definition. It have been this way for long long years.

Once some decided that they wish to go out of that box and have cities and houses, the state of Israel was thrilled. They are lawful citizens. That is why towns around mine, especially Rahat, can afford themselves to bloom.

The squatter beduoins should be taken out and put into the cities. this situation is unacceptable as it is. The Negev is getting ruined because it.

If its ok to demand that settlers will become legal in legal towns, why not demand the same thing from people INSIDE the green line?

Is the law for Jews only?

How is THAT ok?

I don't think I'm the one watching cliche movies here. More than half of the Negev Bedouins population live in the unrecognized villages, which are just that, villages. The village of Al-Araqeeb for example has been demolished over thirty times. It doesn't take a bulldozer to demolish a tent.

For those not blind to what they don't want to see, take a look at dukium or ACRI if Human Rights First or Amnesty are problematic.

The settlers are on occupied land, in settlements illegal under international law, the Bedouin are on land they've been on since Ottoman times. The settlements are being expanded, the Bedouin are being evicted. If you see the settlers as the victims in this scenario, that's some parallel universe.

The 2009 Goldberg Commission, for all its faults, recommended that many of the Bedouin villages be recognized, a simple solution. Instead there was the Prawer-Begin plan. This plan is not about sedentarization, its about displacement, from village to township, and as always with displacement, about who gets to control the land. The JNF wants Araqeeb's land for forestation purposes apparently.

Try going to any village anywhere on earth, and say you as the state plan on evicting its people and demolishing its homes in order to plant trees there. Do you seriously expect to be met with enthusiasm and jubilation?

To return to the original point, I'm not sure these particular citizens of Israel agree that "Israel treats all its citizens well." That was all I wanted to point out.

 

[MHunterB]

In the US, in West-by-God-Virginia, there are quite a few villages which have no municipal services: no police or firemen or EMT's except for whoever volunteers.

Houses have burned down while two volunteer fire companies argued over who was supposed to go and put out the flames......

These towns *also* have no trash pick-up, and no municipal water: you either get a well dug, or have a rain-barrel. Yes, one can see the 'locals' filling their water jugs from the runoff perking through the rocks after a rain (where rocks are exposed at roadside cuts).

I am supposing that these Bedouin villages are similarly 'unincorporated'?

 

[Hossfly]

In the US, in West-by-God-Virginia, there are quite a few villages which have no municipal services: no police or firemen or EMT's except for whoever volunteers.

Houses have burned down while two volunteer fire companies argued over who was supposed to go and put out the flames......

These towns *also* have no trash pick-up, and no municipal water: you either get a well dug, or have a rain-barrel. Yes, one can see the 'locals' filling their water jugs from the runoff perking through the rocks after a rain (where rocks are exposed at roadside cuts).

I am supposing that these Bedouin villages are similarly 'unincorporated'?

Ol' Hoss lived in the days of no indoor plumbing, no electricity, no phones and battery operated radios.Dirt roads and outhouses. Eight mile walk to town and Saturday night baths. It made people tough. Them was the Good Ol' Days.

 

[Lipush]

"Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole"

Yeah, actually they do.

I live in a small town in southern Israel that happens to be surrounded by Bedouin tents that look exactly like from those cliche movies you see. Except it isn't cliche. Its real.

though its interesting that's the image that came to mind

It is the same that comes to the eye, as well.

Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

Unrecognized villages are the villages that the government doesn't accept because the residents don't play taxes. Without taxes they cannot get listed in the Israeli Tabo and cannot get any electricity or water.

Once they start paying taxes like the rest of us, they will get all those demands.

And that is not the issue with the squatters I'm speaking of. There are many who can live in Kseife or Rahat or Lakiye, but they for some reason chose not to. Which is something unexplainable because the mayors call them and want to support them. they refuse.

"The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

Bedouins are nomads. They have no real ties to any land. By self definition. It have been this way for long long years.

Once some decided that they wish to go out of that box and have cities and houses, the state of Israel was thrilled. They are lawful citizens. That is why towns around mine, especially Rahat, can afford themselves to bloom.

The squatter beduoins should be taken out and put into the cities. this situation is unacceptable as it is. The Negev is getting ruined because it.

If its ok to demand that settlers will become legal in legal towns, why not demand the same thing from people INSIDE the green line?

Is the law for Jews only?

How is THAT ok?

I don't think I'm the one watching cliche movies here. More than half of the Negev Bedouins population live in the unrecognized villages, which are just that, villages. The village of Al-Araqeeb for example has been demolished over thirty times. It doesn't take a bulldozer to demolish a tent.

For those not blind to what they don't want to see, take a look at dukium or ACRI if Human Rights First or Amnesty are problematic.

The settlers are on occupied land, in settlements illegal under international law, the Bedouin are on land they've been on since Ottoman times. The settlements are being expanded, the Bedouin are being evicted. If you see the settlers as the victims in this scenario, that's some parallel universe.

The 2009 Goldberg Commission, for all its faults, recommended that many of the Bedouin villages be recognized, a simple solution. Instead there was the Prawer-Begin plan. This plan is not about sedentarization, its about displacement, from village to township, and as always with displacement, about who gets to control the land. The JNF wants Araqeeb's land for forestation purposes apparently.

Try going to any village anywhere on earth, and say you as the state plan on evicting its people and demolishing its homes in order to plant trees there. Do you seriously expect to be met with enthusiasm and jubilation?

To return to the original point, I'm not sure these particular citizens of Israel agree that "Israel treats all its citizens well." That was all I wanted to point out.

Al-Araqeeb has been "demolished" for the same reason settlements are being destroyed. It was an illegal squatting. on state lands.

I don't see settlers as victims. I see settlers and Bedouins in the same light is all, which is kind of fair. Bedouins have been many time stealing lands which have belonged to Jewish farmers way back. Again, if settlers are to obey the law, why not Bedouins?

If they don't want to be evicted, they should start paying taxes. just like the people or recognized towns do. or is stealing state money is kosher, as well?

 

[jehan]

Al-Araqeeb has been "demolished" for the same reason settlements are being destroyed. It was an illegal squatting. on state lands.

I don't see settlers as victims. I see settlers and Bedouins in the same light is all, which is kind of fair. Bedouins have been many time stealing lands which have belonged to Jewish farmers way back. Again, if settlers are to obey the law, why not Bedouins?

If they don't want to be evicted, they should start paying taxes. just like the people or recognized towns do. or is stealing state money is kosher, as well?

Many of the unrecognized villages existed long before 1948, within territorial limits registered by Ottoman administrators. So what's the process by which land which existed long before the creation of the state becomes the property of the state? It's simple enough. The Israeli government refuses to recognize their claims.

In the case of Araqeeb, last year the Beersheba District Court rejected six lawsuits regarding private ownership brought by the 'Uqbi family who argued that they owned the land since Ottoman times.

If the issue was taxation, the arguments in court would be about that, not about who owns the land. The issue is land and population control. Bedouin villages are relatively sparsely populated but as a consequence of a historically nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyle they cover large tracts of land. And this is the problem. The Israeli government wants to concentrate the population into compact "planned townships." In other words, gather all the Bedouin on the smallest amount of land possible.

 

[Lipush]

which makes sense, because people who live in the middle of the desert are not part of a normal population and cannot be treated as such.

Why is that a problem for a Bedouin to live in Rahat or Lakiye? why do they need to spread themselves all over the Negev and not live like the rest?

I don't get it. It's the 21st century and Israel is a developed western country

 

[jehan]

which makes sense, because people who live in the middle of the desert are not part of a normal population and cannot be treated as such.

Why is that a problem for a Bedouin to live in Rahat or Lakiye? why do they need to spread themselves all over the Negev and not live like the rest?

I don't get it. It's the 21st century and Israel is a developed western country

If you don't see a problem with demolishing the homes of people of a particular ethnicity in order to force them to live on less land, that's for you and your conscience to sort out.

But, whichever way you cut it, this policy cannot be squared with some utopian vision of an Israel which treats all its citizens equally. So let's not pretend otherwise.